First 10 Skull Legendary raid - Tempest Spine - Khyber

[Ladywolf]

Hmm, some surprisingly negative responses in an achievement post... makes me sad as we were really excited and thrilled with completing it, and thought we'd share with the rest of the community. I even told people who don't even play the game I was that excited (and that night I dreamt about it lol - yes too much ddo). Usually when I hear about someone doing something I haven't, I'll say congrats. I won't start minimizing their happiness and achievement by blaming things like "oh it's only because ..." Partly because it's polite. Partly because I'm happy for them. Partly because I haven't done it yet

Oh and being one of the warlocks, I'll say this. It would have gone much better with far less of us but we brought what we felt like playing. Some had to swap due to timers - it's like those LE shrouds with half the party below 26 - you do the best with whatever you ended up with. It certainly was challenging and the most fun I've had in a while. Most of us have played a lot with each other and that always helps. I'd like to think we are as close as guildies. Many in the group also have the personalities that reaper was made for. Hmm all of us for that matter...

So anyway thank you for letting us share our achievement and to those who said congratulations.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

If you mean that if they fix the spot nobody is goIng to be able to complete in on R10, that's supposed to be.

No. I genuinely meant what I wrote dude.

If you mean they will never fix the spot, that's just bs. How can you know this?

I think my level of certainty is pretty clear.

I'll point it out. I just can't stand unfairness.

Now that you know about the spot, what is not fair?

The problem with your argumentation is that I am right, no matter what sofism you use to rationalize your position, and this is why you want to degrade this to a personal level.

If you bothered to read what I originally wrote, you'd know that I agreed with you 3 times already---instead you're accusing me of ad hominem, which is silly. I agree with where you're coming from but I think you're being unrealistic about the state of the game by being upset like you are. That's not a sophist position.

The straw-man you seem to be constructing is that I need the safe spot to be there, but what I'm pointing out is that there are many things that shouldn't be in game. It will be at least 6 months until broken wolves are fixed. I don't want you to be upset when you see wolves in a group, or warlocks, or blah blah blah.

An exploit goes against a clear rule. If the rule is unclear then its not a problem. There is no rule about tree animations, but it is non-wai.

Cheese is gonna be around. You could make a thread called, "things that are cheesy, please fix" if you care that much. Honestly, good luck. There's been some genuine movement on that stuff lately.

[Taimasan]

In battle I am trained to take cover....just saying.

[Morroiel]

First off - I can't tell what has been directed at me or not, so with the goal of saving time I'll just assume that I'm grouped with the people "denigrating the achievement" (and other such statements).

I said congratulations, and more importantly I meant it when I said it. Cheese is part of the game - I agree with Sam's post that it should be upfront and readily seen when you post on an achievement like this. However, I'm not going to hate on cheese tactics - I mean look at all the fire peaks achievements those by definition were "cheesed" via ruin/gruin (as far as I'm aware). Traditional epics back when cap was 20 also had similar problems where cheese was used to solo certain quests (e.g. wiz king). Similarly ee mod solo's as well involve a lot of cheese by their very nature. It isn't inherently bad to do so by itself. However, you have to know that there are a lot of people not happy that 10 skull LTS got completed within a couple days: reaper naysayers, vets looking to come back, etc. By not being forthright about you using cheese, some people who might not immediately infer that it had been cheesed now have negative opinion about reaper.

Second. Are you really happy with this achievement? I'm not saying this to try to get you not to be happy about it - I'm saying it so that you actually think. Any person who calls themselves a vet or a true endgame player would at the very least be somewhat upset that reaper 10 on a leg raid was completeable day 1. If you aren't one of those crowd than so be it but I don't think that's the case - you strike me as someone who has been begging for this game to be challenging. Some people view reaper as nothing more than another grind - want to get the power creep as swiftly/quickly as possible. If that's you then so be it. But if you feel as I do about challenge in this game (which we've been lacking for so long) then you can't possibly be completely 100% happy with this achievement (by all means celebrate that you did it but understand that this means the content isn't as difficult as it should be). You say you've done lots of other high skull content, and so I believe you. What does your experience tell you about at level reaper quests vs reaper raids (btw it isn't just TS that has this issue)? It would be painfully easy to introduce champions into reaper raids and increase the difficulty by a measurable amount - this is not to say that its a complete fix. With time, strategy, etc. you'd probably still find a way to beat it whether through cheese or not. But anybody who has stepped into high skull (8+) reaper quests at endgame knows that the champions themselves pose a measurable problem.

Third. Reaper is new. Not only would people (myself included) have watched a stream/vod/etc. of your achievement happily - we would have preferred you to have done such. It's good content for people to see. It also adds a lot of transparency to your completion, so people aren't questioning certain things. For instance, there are NUMEROUS exploits atm (and there might be more that I'm not aware of) that could be used to an enormous advantage. Right now we just have to trust that you haven't utilized any of these. With a video, it becomes significantly harder to cheat in nearly plain sight. I believe you didn't cheat because I don't think you would have needed to, but others might not. This something to keep in mind for the future - as you seem intent on doing more achievement oriented stuff (which I love btw - it has been such a long time since the achievement forum has been super active).

Again, I hope you aren't offended by what I am saying/said. If you felt that I was belittling your accomplishments, then I'm sorry that was (and has) never been my intention. I think its awesome that you guys are out there killing it. BUT I also hope that you can see and feel where I'm coming from.

I wish you and everyone else in your guild/etc only the best.

[Vanhooger]

First off - I can't tell what has been directed at me or not, so with the goal of saving time I'll just assume that I'm grouped with the people "denigrating the achievement" (and other such statements).

I said congratulations, and more importantly I meant it when I said it. Cheese is part of the game - I agree with Sam's post that it should be upfront and readily seen when you post on an achievement like this. However, I'm not going to hate on cheese tactics - I mean look at all the fire peaks achievements those by definition were "cheesed" via ruin/gruin (as far as I'm aware). Traditional epics back when cap was 20 also had similar problems where cheese was used to solo certain quests (e.g. wiz king). Similarly ee mod solo's as well involve a lot of cheese by their very nature. It isn't inherently bad to do so by itself. However, you have to know that there are a lot of people not happy that 10 skull LTS got completed within a couple days: reaper naysayers, vets looking to come back, etc. By not being forthright about you using cheese, some people who might not immediately infer that it had been cheesed now have negative opinion about reaper.

Second. Are you really happy with this achievement? I'm not saying this to try to get you not to be happy about it - I'm saying it so that you actually think. Any person who calls themselves a vet or a true endgame player would at the very least be somewhat upset that reaper 10 on a leg raid was completeable day 1. If you aren't one of those crowd than so be it but I don't think that's the case - you strike me as someone who has been begging for this game to be challenging. Some people view reaper as nothing more than another grind - want to get the power creep as swiftly/quickly as possible. If that's you then so be it. But if you feel as I do about challenge in this game (which we've been lacking for so long) then you can't possibly be completely 100% happy with this achievement (by all means celebrate that you did it but understand that this means the content isn't as difficult as it should be). You say you've done lots of other high skull content, and so I believe you. What does your experience tell you about at level reaper quests vs reaper raids (btw it isn't just TS that has this issue)? It would be painfully easy to introduce champions into reaper raids and increase the difficulty by a measurable amount - this is not to say that its a complete fix. With time, strategy, etc. you'd probably still find a way to beat it whether through cheese or not. But anybody who has stepped into high skull (8+) reaper quests at endgame knows that the champions themselves pose a measurable problem.

Third. Reaper is new. Not only would people (myself included) have watched a stream/vod/etc. of your achievement happily - we would have preferred you to have done such. It's good content for people to see. It also adds a lot of transparency to your completion, so people aren't questioning certain things. For instance, there are NUMEROUS exploits atm (and there might be more that I'm not aware of) that could be used to an enormous advantage. Right now we just have to trust that you haven't utilized any of these. With a video, it becomes significantly harder to cheat in nearly plain sight. I believe you didn't cheat because I don't think you would have needed to, but others might not. This something to keep in mind for the future - as you seem intent on doing more achievement oriented stuff (which I love btw - it has been such a long time since the achievement forum has been super active).

Again, I hope you aren't offended by what I am saying/said. If you felt that I was belittling your accomplishments, then I'm sorry that was (and has) never been my intention. I think its awesome that you guys are out there killing it. BUT I also hope that you can see and feel where I'm coming from.

I wish you and everyone else in your guild/etc only the best.

This. I thought that at least "end game" were supposed to be impossible r6-7+ especially raid. Completing a TS 10 after a week isn't promising IMHO for reaper, that's why I'm not happy with this.

Anyway at the same time I am not worried too much as TS is the easiest and most linear raid. We did a r5 first time and the only problem was boss & those eletcric damage that most people in the party wasn't expecting.

Until boss was just a WK necro or PM show and few people tossing shuriken, quite boring.

[LawfulGood]

In regards to strategy, we didn't have anyone use the Z axis to get above the arena, either through wind buffet or jumps with wings. Everyone was on ground level.

In regards to a so-called "safe spot", there's no such thing on R10. Call Lightning Storm is a one hit kill no matter where you are, from the stairs to the pillars. Earlier I replied that it did 1.3K damage. I know that because that was the HP total of one of the warlocks that got zapped, more than once in succession. The only way to survive is hoping your spell absorption holds out for the duration, just like if you're tasked to be next to the Stormreaver in Fall of Truth. If you define cheese as hitting something without a chance of dying, no one at the top was safe from that scale of damage.

Speaking of pillars, they've been there since level cap was 10. If they weren't meant to be used to mitigate Sorjek's physical attacks they would have been removed years ago. Our strategy is the same one used every day, on every server, on almost all LE runs of this raid. It's also a risky strategy, as Sorjek will still leash if he gets into an unusual position, or someone falls off unintentionally. We simply had to pick the only path of completion apparent to us, having people kite when needed, and hold him opposite the stairs when they could.

There's no way to use the tank method to complete R10. No amount of PRR, MRR, AC, and HP will prevent direct damage death. Not only is that door closed and locked on R10, it never was built.

There seems to be a sentiment that this was easy to complete. I welcome other servers to post their R10 runs and give feedback on their experience about how "easy" it was. Don't extrapolate from R6 or R7. Go all in then please post your thoughts. Even if you feel the end fight was cheapened by the only strategy available to us, anyone doing an R10 run will appreciate the other points in the raid that were extremely challenging.

[Jasparion]

Fixed that for you. It definitely was a challenge, but one that was attainable, unlike 10 Skull LE Shroud or Defiler of the Just. I'm sure that other servers will post their completions soon and give first-hand feedback on their experience. That said, what would really say something about 10 Skull Reaper is if a "pick the first 11 people that hits the LFM" group does it.

So in your mind should Reaper 10 have been beatable as soon as it was out? Regardless of the gear and ability of players?

That is my only issue. Nothing to do with what the players did, whether they exploited environment or anything else. Simply put, end game Reaper +10 should not be doable within a day or 2 of release.

And from the sounds of things, if mobs really are doing 25k hits, then it sounds like Turbine/SSG are saying to us that we should all just use ranged characters and avoid being hit.

[LawfulGood]

So in your mind should Reaper 10 have been beatable as soon as it was out? Regardless of the gear and ability of players?

That is my only issue. Nothing to do with what the players did, whether they exploited environment or anything else. Simply put, end game Reaper +10 should not be doable within a day or 2 of release.

And from the sounds of things, if mobs really are doing 25k hits, then it sounds like Turbine/SSG are saying to us that we should all just use ranged characters and avoid being hit.

No, what I'm saying is that one of the easiest Legendary raids (one that was duoed and soloed on LE soon after release) was completed by a group of 12 very capable and equipped people on R10 after an extremely challenging experience. I'm not sure how things are on other servers, but here on Khyber (as mentioned above), our top guilds work in a spirit of cooperation, not competition. We hang out in the same channels, and are frankly a sort of meta-guild. We are all familiar with each other's play styles and skills and when called upon can create a very strong raid group.

As an example, please refer to https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Khyber-Killers which has many of the same players involved in this run. Shortly after LE Shroud became available, we beat the world record time by over 15 minutes. The insinuation that we cheesed part 1 by jumping over geometry was made, with comments that there wouldn't be a video posted and that portal dps must have been "astronomical". That underlying tone continued until I posted our Part 1 video.

Just because a "typical" raid party can't complete R10 LE Tempest Spine doesn't mean it should be out of reach for everyone, and we've proven that point. There are better examples of raids that hold true to the belief that R10 raids are unbeatable. LE TS is not one of them. I would caution anyone not to jump to conclusions as to the "success" of implementing 10 Skull Reaper based on one raid completion.

[Qhualor]

I used to run with many of these players and some are former guildies. from time to time I still run with some of them, but I don't know if they realize it or not no doubt it was probably tough to beat regardless if cheese was involved or not, but I know how well these guys play. add cheese they are good. take away the cheese they are still good. it doesn't matter because they are that good.

[Morroiel]

As an example, please refer to https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Khyber-Killers which has many of the same players involved in this run. Shortly after LE Shroud became available, we beat the world record time by over 15 minutes. The insinuation that we cheesed part 1 by jumping over geometry was made, with comments that there wouldn't be a video posted and that portal dps must have been "astronomical". That underlying tone continued until I posted our Part 1 video.

You mean when you used not WAI features like: freezing ice and triple acid procs? ...... Not to be a **** or anything but we had a player solo LE shroud when those procs were active. Didn't post because of how broken it was.

The only speedrun / completion that counts as far as I'm concerned from that time is the world first - when LGS hadn't been crafted, and provably so (i.e. our world first which occurred within 24 hours of release).

If you think this is okay, you probably thought it was okay to use one of the many exploits working in reaper atm. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt but not if you are calling that LE shroud an actual speedrun.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

In regards to a so-called "safe spot", there's no such thing on R10.

I stopped right there. ~tgm

woot

[MistaMagic]

You mean when you used not WAI features like: freezing ice and triple acid procs? ...... Not to be a **** or anything but we had a player solo LE shroud when those procs were active. Didn't post because of how broken it was.

The only speedrun / completion that counts as far as I'm concerned from that time is the world first - when LGS hadn't been crafted, and provably so (i.e. our world first which occurred within 24 hours of release).

If you think this is okay, you probably thought it was okay to use one of the many exploits working in reaper atm. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt but not if you are calling that LE shroud an actual speedrun.

This what Khyber players can do without LGS as they had not been invented back then.

Thank you guys for an action packed Abbot beat-down! We even had some sprinkle of lag and the customary player DC towards the end. (you can only rez those who have a soul Poppy!)

8 Double Deviants - Creep, Goodthings, Grymlok, Krugarath, Krystalbow , Lakmal, Missfix, Reasis
2 Annihilation - Poppytop, Satinallday
1 EOS - FlirtyBratt
1 Wanderlust - Arkania


(special thanks to Reasis for the footage)

[Hafeal]

Congrats on the completion all!

Having run at times through the years with many of these players, I would be surprised if any chesse and/or exploits were used. These players pride themselves on doing everything they can to complete a quest in the manner and spirit intended by the devs.

/salute

[Attropos]

You mean when you used not WAI features like: freezing ice and triple acid procs? ...... Not to be a **** or anything but we had a player solo LE shroud when those procs were active. Didn't post because of how broken it was.

The only speedrun / completion that counts as far as I'm concerned from that time is the world first - when LGS hadn't been crafted, and provably so (i.e. our world first which occurred within 24 hours of release).

If you think this is okay, you probably thought it was okay to use one of the many exploits working in reaper atm. I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt but not if you are calling that LE shroud an actual speedrun.

Yeah, I'm calling for proof on this one (the LE shroud solo). Unless they actually bugged the quest out and managed to complete without doing any of the objectives, there is actually 0 chance this actually happened.

[Morroiel]

Yeah, I'm calling for proof on this one (the LE shroud solo). Unless they actually bugged the quest out and managed to complete without doing any of the objectives, there is actually 0 chance this actually happened.

Note that this was with LGS being broke.
I'll try to make contact with sulay, no promises though as he's been away from game for a while.

[Attropos]

Note that this was with LGS being broke.
I'll try to make contact with sulay, no promises though as he's been away from game for a while.

Thanks for double checking.... that's a pretty bold statement. Sulay has done some sick things, but when LE shroud went live, there is no way that anyone could have done it solo legit, even with bugged LGS. When it first came out on the PTR and damage was about 10% of the current values, it could have been done pretty easily, but never on the live servers. It's kind of a dead horse now anyways, but I still don't understand why there are so many people saying "Your achievement doesn't count! I did it different!". Triple ice was way more cheesy imo than the acid, but less cheese than, let's say, running 12 shiradi mm spammers. We can talk about this via PMs if you want since LE shroud is kind of old news for most people.

As to the current topic, I understand that what people think of as an exploit is a spectrum. On one hand you have people who think that kiting is an exploit. You have other people who say "Sulay used a tree to solo raids, exploiter!" And then you have the people who think waiting for an hour to wait for Mama Hounds shields to go down and then nuking her down is legit. /shrug Different strokes for different people. My personal view is: does the issue in question invalidate the crux encounter(s)?

I wasn't on the run, but unless there is another "safe spot", LawfulGood is talking about using the pillars to block attacks. When you get knocked back by the wind, you get blown out of it. SJ has ranged attacks. The encounter is not "trivial" with or without a safe spot. If I winged behind a pillar once to dodge an attack is that an exploit? If I did it continuously? Was kiting the shadows in P2 of ToD an exploit since you could outrun them? I guess where I'm going is, how many times does sorjek need to knock you out of the "safe spot" before it becomes legit?

Compare it to the people running shroud and just winging over the wall in part 1. To me, that is an exploit. Sure it might take a couple of tries to get over, but there is no risk of failing the raid, unlike with SJ.



@The people who are claiming reaper is a failure:
I haven't run it yet, but have to say, just hold on jesus. So 1 LE raid is doable at 10 skulls. I'm not sure if you remember when Epic came out, think about reaper like the old Epics. Some got done super quick. Some didn't. As Frets (LawfulGood) has said already in this thread, DoJ and Shroud are impossible at 10 skulls, even with a full raid group. We still have firsts that we can do. And unless they got rid of the +2 overlevel bonus, there are still the old raids that haven't been beaten at 10 skulls. That's what I am looking forward to and want to try to put together, a group that goes back and does the raids again. With the insane power creep in gear, especially in the past year (remember when +7 stats were rare level 20 named gear?), it may be a cakewalk, but I'm hoping it's not.

I'll point it out. I just can't stand unfairness. The problem with your argumentation is that I am right, no matter what sofism you use to rationalize your position.

You sound like a lot of fun at parties.

[LawfulGood]

Are you kidding me? So this is your excuse to pass as legit? An ability that is single target and hits less than the melee damage he does on non-reaper elite? This is ridiculous.



Holy mother of god. Now using the pillars is legit because they have been there for a time. Your level of rationalizing is above imagination.



Speak for yourself. I have played in numerous servers and people do not use this strategy. Most runs are just kite in the arena, it's not hard.



Dude, look, if you want to cheese because it's the "only path of completion apparent", be well. But keep it to yourself, don't come here and post it. Except if you put clearly in the OP you are exploiting, and if you do, don't try to defend against people pointing that out. This raid was soloed on LE numerous times, all using exploit at end fight, but these people had the sensibility to not post it as an achievement looking for recognizement or something, and when they did, they did not try to justify it like you are doing.



"We can't complete legit that means exploiting is legit".

If you feel that there are strategies used in this raid that are exploits, please start a thread to get a dev answer on it in another forum section. There have been other recent discussions in that manner. The rules of the achievement forum are clear on acceptable responses posts made here. The fact is the raid was completed on R10. The strategies used did not involve jumping vertically to a perch that negated damage. Everyone in the group was in a position where they could take damage, regardless if they were behind a pillar, kiting, etc. We discussed if we should post it, and consensus was we should as nothing was done during the raid that was extraordinary. If you don't believe it's a legit completion, I respect your opinion. In the end, its up to the devs to decide what is and is not allowable. They have adjusted quests and raids in the past when these issues have come to light.

[Kebtid]

We made furyshot working as intended with our outrage.
We can for sure make trees, wolfs and other stuff Wai even when they stated they aren't if we band together.

Who cares..

Anyways good job guys, still required twork even if it was using ress scrolls