option to remove champs from heroic hard&elite

[Amundir]

He's saying that if you had the option to remove champions, then the difficulty would not warrant the current XP rewards given for hard & elite, so it would have to also drop if the option was chosen.

[Annex]

At this point my avatar (Rogue Assassin) mostly demolishes everything at Epic Normal difficulty making the game extremely boring. I find Epic Hard difficulty more fun but I cannot take the high damage Champions so I always end up dropping back down to Epic Normal. I totally understand why Champions exist but I wish there was a fun difficulty setting for someone like me. I was hoping for a Champion toggle but appreciate the honest response and closure of the issue.

[Seikojin]

For the triple completionists maybe, thats still besides the issue (see first post, it's not about the dificulty)
I wasn't asking about removing it, i was asking to make it optional

There is zero chance we will remove Champions from Heroic hard and elite. Champions are meant to provide an increased difficulty to these difficulty levels, which had become too easy over time for the reward they offered.

I agree with Cordo, even with first life store geared toons, what you gather in the game makes Hard and Elite irrelevant. I mean if it isn't about difficulty, then why not have them on normal?

Champs are optional. You don't have to fight them. Just run past. That's what everyone does anyways.

[PhotoRob]

There is zero chance we will remove Champions from Heroic hard and elite. Champions are meant to provide an increased difficulty to these difficulty levels, which had become too easy over time for the reward they offered.

Too easy? ***TOO EASY?*** I'd like to know how you decided that it was too easy for the entire population. Before those mornic chumps were added, I was soloing hard and it was *JUST RIGHT*. After the chumps, I was forced into normal if I wanted to play.

Based on the MASSIVE negative feedback after their introduction, I'd say my opinion is a moderately popular one.

Your problem is you are equating "extra hard" with "fun. This is not always the case, so stop promoting that garbage.

By stating you will never remove champions, you are stating that you do not care about a significant portion of your player base.

People who want difficult now have reaper mode, so why can't the rest of us have fun mode back?

[Impaqt]

Rubbish!

Champions were a sop to Elitists Nothing more!

Just look at this thread and exactly who has come out against removing Champs from Elite - All players who consider Elite TOO EASY WITH THEM!
All Players who with TEN difficulties above Elite to run in should never be running Elite again anyway!

Now the Elite have got TEN difficulties above Elite to play in - Give the rest of us Hard and Elite BACK!

um. Sorry, please dont speak for me. I generally find elite just the right challenge I'm after and I'm completely against removing champions.

[EllisDee37]

again, missing the point, it's not about the difficulty, i want the game to return to ddo instead of the diablo 1/2/3 formula.
all i'm asking for is a checkbox to turn it off, make it solo only if needed, i hate looking at those stupid crowns, it takes me out of the experience.
It breaks the rpg immersion and makes it too much of a video game

Only if the checkbox also disables all your enhancements, since champions were introduced to rebalance the game after the enhancement pass greatly increased the power of all builds.

So disable all the power creep from enhancements and you won't need champions anymore. Are you okay making that trade?

I'd like to know how you decided that it was too easy for the entire population.

Because the entire population got the enhancement pass.

[Requiro]

Too easy? ***TOO EASY?*** I'd like to know how you decided that it was too easy for the entire population. Before those mornic chumps were added, I was soloing hard and it was *JUST RIGHT*. After the chumps, I was forced into normal if I wanted to play.

Based on the MASSIVE negative feedback after their introduction, I'd say my opinion is a moderately popular one.

Your problem is you are equating "extra hard" with "fun. This is not always the case, so stop promoting that garbage.

By stating you will never remove champions, you are stating that you do not care about a significant portion of your player base.

You have any data? I guess not.

People who want difficult now have reaper mode, so why can't the rest of us have fun mode back?

You have normal. What you guys want is even more easy Favor Grind.

Problem with new players is not Champions, but BB. BB forced new players to play elite, if they want be in any party at all.
Now, with reaper, that gap between New and Veteran will be even deeper. First time 120% XP bonus, but only 1 level above base quest, is quite impossible for new players.

What Devs should do for new players:
• New training ground for new players
• Updated paths
• Finish class pass
• Put in tips link to DDO wiki (or combine it with game)
• Bonus XP for party members (+2% per party member)
• Lower BB bonuses (Hard max 10%, Elite Max 20%)
• Better starter gear, and update old low level named gear.

Nevertheless, I glad to hear that Devs will never remove Champs. That is fantastic news

[Malex]

Anyway, it's not lore breaking, if you read the lore.
Champions were created by a blast of energy of the Codex (remember that part 5 of Lshroud is the only place in a raid you get champs? That's not a coincidence: those monsters are summoned by the Codex, which gives them the powers). The Codex and the Shroud is the highest level quest (well, raid, but whatever) in the game for this very reason: it's meant to be, from a storyline stand point, *the last quest*. That's why you see champions everywhere: stopping the Codex is the last thing you will do.


As for difficulty: for starters, when I was new, one year ago, never played an MMO before, just started my wizard (not exactly the best class for first life), I did normal etc. But, when around lv 10 i started going around in PUGs, I dont remeber any single issue I had with champions, except their deathblock (since, you know, I was playing a pale master). That was anoying, but bosses have that too :/

And that same first lifer, with a first life player (so an actual new player experience, because player skill is involved) in epics, while filling destinies (so, off-destiny most of the time) easly solo'd EH, with some specific exceptions of course (storm horns and detour).

So the triple completionist is a really weak argument. Also watch the Northwyind series on youtube: a 1st life toon without even guild buff could pull through everything quite easly in heroics.

What you want is run 2006-Elites with 2017 power! That's it. Champions where needed for this reason: Elite was not intended to be blasted through.
But, being this an MMO, items over time became super-powerful, so an Elite-before-champions was actually midway a Normal-Hard in 2006, looking at videos on youtube from that period of time.

[HuneyMunster]

I voted "don't add the checkbox" due to the "i just care about myself." while "yes" has "i care about others"



I find this type of poll manipulating as its saying anyone who disagree with the OP is a selfish and inconsiderate of others. Maybe if the wording was different I would have voted differently.

[Bolo_Grubb]

there is already a check box!

its called normal.

if you play on normal you dont have champions.

Here is your answer

If we did have a check box for Champions, it would also have to scale back XP, Favor, and named item power and drops to a difficulty that didn't include Champions, so...Normal.

Confirmed by a dev

[Lanadazia]

I don't recall getting any extra xp, favour OR named items from Champions - All of those are exactly the same now as they were PRIOR to Champions existing!

I'll happily not have Remnants drop so I can switch Champions off!

i guess he was talking about newer content.
i do not like the idea of a toggle, though. elite is what it is. elite. there has to be a challenge.
its just like the dev said, if you take champs away, you would need to adjust loot-level, xp, streak bonuses etc.
so.. it basically would be normal

[Dragavon]

If we did have a check box for Champions, it would also have to scale back XP, Favor, and named item power and drops to a difficulty that didn't include Champions, so...Normal.

I like this reply.

[mna]

Problem with new players is not Champions, but BB. BB forced new players to play elite, if they want be in any party at all.
Now, with reaper, that gap between New and Veteran will be even deeper. First time 120% XP bonus, but only 1 level above base quest, is quite impossible for new players.

Well yeah. Heroic Elite (with champions) bravery-streak grouping was already challenging for newbies but experienced players could do it with a first-life ungeared character.

From last night runs, the group was doing Reaper 1, pretty good for the Nth life TR-train folks but I had significant difficulty with a 32pt first-lifer with a bunch of gear assistance from a senior alt on that server.

[Zakharov]

Misleading poll is useless. The reason champions exist is the devs have continually added power creep everywhere in the game for players but never updated old content to keep pace. Even with champions the game is still much easier for first life brand new players than it used to be. Past lives are only a minor part of the power creep.

If you want the option to remove champions then doing so should also:

• Remove all scaling, always assume full party
• Remove hirelings
• Reduce power of all loot drops (named and random) to old loot tables
• Reduce power of all crafted loot
• Drastically increase the duration of all debuffs cast by enemies (this was reduced some time ago. I'm still upset that blindness is no longer permanent until cured, that was the best thing ever)
• Increase spell point cost of all spells back to old values
• Remove "echoes of power"
• Remove PRR and MRR
• Remove all enhancements
• Remove all epic destinies
• Oh, and of course remove all past lives
• Probably more I'm forgetting

So long as the option to remove champions also includes all of the above to restore the difficulty to how it used to be, then I'm all for it! No seriously, I really want a mode with all the above changes. Unfortunately that would probably take too much time & resources so we get champions and reaper instead. At least it's something.

[gravisrs]

Protest against champions ?

It's a obvious thing that if we have class revamps increasing it's powers / new better loot - to keep the challenge at same level - quests needs to be bit harder.
Sword & shield upgrade game.

Please tell me, are you using new/revamped class trees, introduced powerful items in few last updates or new CC crafting? And you want same-level challenge ?

[lronEnema]

Looks to me like the poll is a serious backfire.

My betting is that there are a lot of people like me, (who wouldn't normally bother to vote) who saw the dishonest way it was constructed and decided to throw a spanner at it.

Anyway - nice going guys. I salute you all.

[Eelpout]

I do like the option in the UI to have a checkbox to hide the crowns on champions for a bit more intrigue and surprise. I don't believe taking them out of the game at this point is neccesary. Hard and Elite settings are mostly reasonable except for a few quests. Reaper mode wouldn't have been introduced if the other settings were terribly unapproachable to the vast majority of players

[lyrecono]

Even if they did add a check box , new players do not need to run elite anyways.....when i was new i played normal first...then hard ... then elite. Thats how u learn.

with BB they don't meet up with vets, the actual people you need to learn the game.

If we did have a check box for Champions, it would also have to scale back XP, Favor, and named item power and drops to a difficulty that didn't include Champions, so...Normal.

Since you never upped the exp, you never upped favor, you nerfed items like terror and the sos
I'm still wondering why i'm even responding to you, during our gaming sessions, you have always demonstrated a tremendous lack of knowledge about this game.
I didn't ask for champions to be removed, just for check box option

Rubbish!

Champions were a sop to Elitists Nothing more!

Just look at this thread and exactly who has come out against removing Champs from Elite - All players who consider Elite TOO EASY WITH THEM!
All Players who with TEN difficulties above Elite to run in should never be running Elite again anyway!

Now the Elite have got TEN difficulties above Elite to play in - Give the rest of us Hard and Elite BACK!

this!

not all of us have 10 difficulties above elite to play. I choose NOT to run Reaper for reasons I've stated in other threads. so that leaves me with elite to give me something for challenge. if players didn't complain about Champions in the first 3 days of release we might not even have Reaper today. I want MY elite back. just like BEFORE Champions were introduced, if its too hard you have lower difficulties to choose from.

your elite is still there, i just asked for a checkbox, it shouldn't impact you

Oh man. I think there is a bug then. I never got any of those things when champs were introduced. You guys owe me some XP.

indeed

He's saying that if you had the option to remove champions, then the difficulty would not warrant the current XP rewards given for hard & elite, so it would have to also drop if the option was chosen.

BS, that amount of exp wasn't raised either, if they want to raise exp for champs, fine with me.

At this point my avatar (Rogue Assassin) mostly demolishes everything at Epic Normal difficulty making the game extremely boring. I find Epic Hard difficulty more fun but I cannot take the high damage Champions so I always end up dropping back down to Epic Normal. I totally understand why Champions exist but I wish there was a fun difficulty setting for someone like me. I was hoping for a Champion toggle but appreciate the honest response and closure of the issue.

also this

Too easy? ***TOO EASY?*** I'd like to know how you decided that it was too easy for the entire population. Before those mornic chumps were added, I was soloing hard and it was *JUST RIGHT*. After the chumps, I was forced into normal if I wanted to play.

Based on the MASSIVE negative feedback after their introduction, I'd say my opinion is a moderately popular one.

Your problem is you are equating "extra hard" with "fun. This is not always the case, so stop promoting that garbage.

By stating you will never remove champions, you are stating that you do not care about a significant portion of your player base.

People who want difficult now have reaper mode, so why can't the rest of us have fun mode back?

And this
it's sad so little people make use of the forum, i know plenty that would like to have champs removed but have been revolted by the comment on these topics.

um. Sorry, please dont speak for me. I generally find elite just the right challenge I'm after and I'm completely against removing champions.

i don't speak for you and stop strawmaning the arguement, i'm not asking to have champions removed, just to have the option to play the game without diablo-esque shenanigans.

[lronEnema]

BS, that amount of exp wasn't raised either, if they want to raise exp for champs, fine with me.

Nor was the xp reduced with each successive step of powercreep.

Champs balance the compound power creep we had seen for 7 or 8 years, so xp has and should remain the same

[Impaqt]

i don't speak for you and stop strawmaning the arguement, i'm not asking to have champions removed, just to have the option to play the game without diablo-esque shenanigans.

I quoted the person I was talking to. I dont recall accusing you of the same.

You do have your option as Cordovon pointed out. Its a checkbox called normal.

Having the ability to remove the champions from Hard and Elite defeats the purpose of putting them in in the first place.