Reaper HP Bonuses

[Blastyswa]

There's a picture of a pure fighter sitting on a little over 12k HP with capstone boosting. Before the boost I still had around 8k HP, and would have more if I had a complete LGS set on that character. I'm all for small power creep bonuses, but the reaper trees give +10 HP per enhancement spent (+12 for tank, but going to call it +10 so that the numbers are easier so this will actually be a lowball) as well as +130 from tank cores giving around 1700 extra base HP, which will double many non-tank builds HP when all reaper bonuses are accounted for. Now personally I can live with this if it does make it onto live, but it seems like it defeats the purpose of a difficulty where enemies go from taking two hits to kill you to one hit, when enhancements then move it back to two hits.

Edit: No idea why the picture isn't working on my screen, my tags are correct and whatever. I also have a direct link: http://imgur.com/d984BZN : So that's the picture if you can't see it on forum. Note the build in the picture is a maxed out con build mostly just showing the absolute silliness of the HP bonuses, but my warlock build with 2,500 HP on live in shiradi was sitting on around 5k in reaper. Also bear in mind that it was only thanks to a current lamma glitch that I have as many reaper bonuses as it'll let me take, and presumably getting this much HP would normally require a lot of grinding (So while players will eventually be running around with 1700 HP, it'll be a gradual process)

[Therrias]

[img]

12k? So...two shot instead of one shot?

[Infiltraitor]

12k? So...two shot instead of one shot?

You will need about 400 PRR to go with that 12K if you want to survive a certain raid boss that likes to send people flying off a mountain.

[Tlorrd]

12k? So...two shot instead of one shot?

2 shot can be healed ... one shot can be rezzed.

[Atheok]

You will need about 400 PRR to go with that 12K if you want to survive a certain raid boss that likes to send people flying off a mountain.

8500 hit today on reaper 7 through 325 PRR...

[Xaxx]

There's a picture of a pure fighter sitting on a little over 12k HP with capstone boosting. Before the boost I still had around 8k HP, and would have more if I had a complete LGS set on that character. I'm all for small power creep bonuses, but the reaper trees give +10 HP per enhancement spent (+12 for tank, but going to call it +10 so that the numbers are easier so this will actually be a lowball) as well as +130 from tank cores giving around 1700 extra base HP, which will double many non-tank builds HP when all reaper bonuses are accounted for. Now personally I can live with this if it does make it onto live, but it seems like it defeats the purpose of a difficulty where enemies go from taking two hits to kill you to one hit, when enhancements then move it back to two hits.

Edit: No idea why the picture isn't working on my screen, my tags are correct and whatever. I also have a direct link: http://imgur.com/d984BZN : So that's the picture if you can't see it on forum. Note the build in the picture is a maxed out con build mostly just showing the absolute silliness of the HP bonuses, but my warlock build with 2,500 HP on live in shiradi was sitting on around 5k in reaper. Also bear in mind that it was only thanks to a current lamma glitch that I have as many reaper bonuses as it'll let me take, and presumably getting this much HP would normally require a lot of grinding (So while players will eventually be running around with 1700 HP, it'll be a gradual process)

So completly conned out, with 20% hp bonus from stance, more than likley 20% hp bonus from ed, and how many shroud pieces and 377 pr.... and for all that work if he steps into shroud 10 skull he will be one shot by the first orthon.... congrats this is a 10 skull tank for most things that is gonna do how much damage since hes basically gone completly defensive and probably stunted his gear to the nth dagree. Yes this makes an awsome center for a group assuming he can intim.... but Id like to see all those hp kill anything. Id also like to know how much reaper xp is involved before we've caped out every single point before we begin yelling that things need nerfed. That being said cordo has already said numbers were being discussed for adjust ment.... dont plan on it going live with that amount of hp.

[Blastyswa]

You will need about 400 PRR to go with that 12K if you want to survive a certain raid boss that likes to send people flying off a mountain.

Was at 377, and not even CLOSE to optimized (I was in medium armor without a shield) the picture was just showing the silly amount of HP. I stepped into LShroud 10 skull solo and survived two hits before the third killed me, and stepped into LTempest's Spine 10 skull and ran to the first group of drow, surviving just fine for many hits until the inability to heal killed me. I think that a more optimized build (500+ PRR) could survive incredibly well anywhere but reaper 10 LShroud with a healer, even without the 12k HP (4k-5k with 500 PRR would be fine)

[Blastyswa]

So completly conned out, with 20% hp bonus from stance, more than likley 20% hp bonus from ed, and how many shroud pieces and 377 pr.... and for all that work if he steps into shroud 10 skull he will be one shot by the first orthon.... congrats this is a 10 skull tank for most things that is gonna do how much damage since hes basically gone completly defensive and probably stunted his gear to the nth dagree. Yes this makes an awsome center for a group assuming he can intim.... but Id like to see all those hp kill anything. Id also like to know how much reaper xp is involved before we've caped out every single point before we begin yelling that things need nerfed. That being said cordo has already said numbers were being discussed for adjust ment.... dont plan on it going live with that amount of hp.

3 shroud pieces, and I had done a quick TR just before from my warlock build so I was using medium celestial sage armor and dual-wielding LGS caster weps. 377 PRR was WAY below the maximum achievable nowadays, especially for an all out defense focused build; intimidate skill is around 140 with item swap-ins, and I think it's basically been confirmed that a melee who ISN'T completely defensive is going to be silly terrible in max content. I had TYWA on that build (Although in a live version I would pull out from constitution and go into strength most likely for higher to hit) and with current gearing options it would be easy to fit in (As an example gearing) 5-piece slavers set (Necklace-Named Helm-Ring-Ring-Named Trinket) Mysterious Cloak, 4 piece LGS (Bracers-Goggles-Gloves-Belt), Affirmation (+150 Positive Spellpower/+50 Hamp/+70 Hamp), Epic Shield of Tireless Aid, and LTS/LHoX Heavy Armor. The build could even swap to dreadnought for non-reaper 10 questing, blitzing for high DPS (Especially if it has a dual-focus in THF and can pull out an axe instead of S&B).

With that said, I made very certain not to call for any nerfs. I said "Now personally I can live with this if it does make it onto live, but it seems like it defeats the purpose of a difficulty where enemies go from taking two hits to kill you to one hit, when enhancements then move it back to two hits." and that is what I'm still saying. It seems silly to have an extra difficulty (10 difficulties) to add challenge to the game, and simultaneously release a system to nullify that difficulty increase.

[Tlorrd]

3 shroud pieces, and I had done a quick TR just before from my warlock build so I was using medium celestial sage armor and dual-wielding LGS caster weps. 377 PRR was WAY below the maximum achievable nowadays, especially for an all out defense focused build; intimidate skill is around 140 with item swap-ins, and I think it's basically been confirmed that a melee who ISN'T completely defensive is going to be silly terrible in max content. I had TYWA on that build (Although in a live version I would pull out from constitution and go into strength most likely for higher to hit) and with current gearing options it would be easy to fit in (As an example gearing) 5-piece slavers set (Necklace-Named Helm-Ring-Ring-Named Trinket) Mysterious Cloak, 4 piece LGS (Bracers-Goggles-Gloves-Belt), Affirmation (+150 Positive Spellpower/+50 Hamp/+70 Hamp), Epic Shield of Tireless Aid, and LTS/LHoX Heavy Armor. The build could even swap to dreadnought for non-reaper 10 questing, blitzing for high DPS (Especially if it has a dual-focus in THF and can pull out an axe instead of S&B).

With that said, I made very certain not to call for any nerfs. I said "Now personally I can live with this if it does make it onto live, but it seems like it defeats the purpose of a difficulty where enemies go from taking two hits to kill you to one hit, when enhancements then move it back to two hits." and that is what I'm still saying. It seems silly to have an extra difficulty (10 difficulties) to add challenge to the game, and simultaneously release a system to nullify that difficulty increase.

while what you say is true and i agree with the bottom of your statement ...

1. how do you fix it?

2. the number of quests you are talking about where this is needed is currently 3 i would think ... LTS, LHox, LShroud ... outside of that, you may not need super maxed tank with every ounce squeezed out of PRR, intim, etc ... you could suffice with 80% of those things high level reaper quests.

[Rys]

Let's give the players a new difficulty and the tools to overcome it.

[zehnvhex]

DDO only has one dial for difficulty and that's "how hard do the mobs hit?"

They've begun experimenting again with using abilities you actually have to manually dodge, but they're so skittish about doing it because the engine wasn't really built for that.

Until they take a page from WarCrafts bosses and turn DDO into DDR, one shot or not one-shot is really all they can really do.

Personally I wish they'd stop worrying so much about the mobs and work on making the dungeons themselves interesting. The last few updates they could just call this game Hallways and Humanoids.

[Infiltraitor]

8500 hit today on reaper 7 through 325 PRR...

Ew. 10 skulls would be in the 12,000 range.

In other words, not survivable even with reaper tree. It serves no purpose except blatant power creep for the 1 skull xp farm.

[Lonnbeimnech]

Ew. 10 skulls would be in the 12,000 range.

In other words, not survivable even with reaper tree. It serves no purpose except blatant power creep for the 1 skull xp farm.

Just wait until they add Reaper Reincarnation, and people farm out the next 36 past lives of reaper only bonuses.

You were a tank in a past life, gain 10% hp and 10% prr and 100 DR, stacks 3 times...

[lppmor]

Just wait until they add Reaper Reincarnation, and people farm out the next 36 past lives of reaper only bonuses.

You were a tank in a past life, gain 10% hp and 10% prr and 100 DR, stacks 3 times...

At that time we'll have Reaper 99 skulls anyway..

[Infiltraitor]

Just wait until they add Reaper Reincarnation, and people farm out the next 36 past lives of reaper only bonuses.

You were a tank in a past life, gain 10% hp and 10% prr and 100 DR, stacks 3 times...

The level of power creep you just mentioned is sufficient to make me Uninstall. Not sure about the current Reaper Trees.

[Blastyswa]

One other big issue I see with this method of adding survivability is that it really homogenizes all builds HP. For example, lets looks at two build I play quite a bit on live:

8/6/6 Fighter/Monk/Ranger Thrower Build playing in Fury of the Wild- 1600 HP

20 Paladin Tank Build playing in Unyielding Sentinel- 3000 HP

with +1700 HP from Reaper bonuses:

1st Build: 3,300 HP

2nd Build: 4,700 HP

Previously the second build had almost double the HP of the first build, which makes sense seeing as it's a tank build in Unyielding Sentinel. With full reaper bonuses on both characters the second build has about 50% more HP than the first build. The point? If every build gets +1700 HP regardless of build decisions, then the value of doing conscious sacrifices to pump HP has a relative decrease.

[2pc2]

One other big issue I see with this method of adding survivability is that it really homogenizes all builds HP. For example, lets looks at two build I play quite a bit on live:

8/6/6 Fighter/Monk/Ranger Thrower Build playing in Fury of the Wild- 1600 HP

20 Paladin Tank Build playing in Unyielding Sentinel- 3000 HP

with +1700 HP from Reaper bonuses:

1st Build: 3,300 HP

2nd Build: 4,700 HP

Previously the second build had almost double the HP of the first build, which makes sense seeing as it's a tank build in Unyielding Sentinel. With full reaper bonuses on both characters the second build has about 50% more HP than the first build. The point? If every build gets +1700 HP regardless of build decisions, then the value of doing conscious sacrifices to pump HP has a relative decrease.

Right on the spot. That will favor ranged builds even more too. +1700 Hp are much more usefull when you don't get hit very often than when you have to go in mob attack range. Some ranged and caster builds will be really difficult to kill with that HP bump. I think this could be fixed by lowering the HP bonus to 1/10 of what is now to a more reasonable 170-200 hp and find other ways to give the builds that really need it (melees) some more hp.

[Vish]

No,
What they need to do is double down on hit points
The tank tree should grant +20 hp, or +30

Then even though if all maxxed out may homogenize,
Being a tank, and only having that tree will see an increase in hp

Or they could put caveats in for class,
Either way the trees are pretty nondescript
And don't really look finished

[BigErkyKid]

One other big issue I see with this method of adding survivability is that it really homogenizes all builds HP. [...]If every build gets +1700 HP regardless of build decisions, then the value of doing conscious sacrifices to pump HP has a relative decrease.

Happens in live very similarly with PRR.

I think it's basically been confirmed that a melee who ISN'T completely defensive is going to be silly terrible in max content. .

Well, I guess you agree with me now then? I seem to recall you saying that the level of damage taken was fine

[boredman]

One other big issue I see with this method of adding survivability is that it really homogenizes all builds HP. For example, lets looks at two build I play quite a bit on live:

8/6/6 Fighter/Monk/Ranger Thrower Build playing in Fury of the Wild- 1600 HP

20 Paladin Tank Build playing in Unyielding Sentinel- 3000 HP

with +1700 HP from Reaper bonuses:

1st Build: 3,300 HP

2nd Build: 4,700 HP

Previously the second build had almost double the HP of the first build, which makes sense seeing as it's a tank build in Unyielding Sentinel. With full reaper bonuses on both characters the second build has about 50% more HP than the first build. The point? If every build gets +1700 HP regardless of build decisions, then the value of doing conscious sacrifices to pump HP has a relative decrease.

The Reaper tree buffs scale down with skull level? or you can get the 1700 hp for skull 1 or 2? If they give powerful buffs designed for reaper skull 10 they should scale down depending the skull lvl (for example 100% skull 10, 90% S9, .., 10% S1 or diminishing returns for higher skulls, etc)

About the hp bonuses applying equally no matter the type of build, I'm totally agree is not well designed. There should be penalties or restrictions of the reaper buffs depending the type of build ( the type of weapons they use (meele, ranged or caster)) and the main reaper tree invested, which brings another point of why can a build get all reaper trees enhancements (it shouldn't be main tank or main dps or main spell but not all trees at the same time?)
For example ranged dps builds should get at least a 50% penalty of the tank tree buffs (spell tree as well), 25% hp penalty just by being ranged. Meele builds should get something like 25% tank and spell tree penalties if spec into dps tree. ( I mean builds should get only a main reaper tree focus, then get penalties into other trees)
(Other option is just restrict the number of enhancements you can take so you can invest only into one main reaper tree and half other, having the option to respec enhancements when you change your build)