Why did you put the overlevel penalty to Reaper? Way to kill all the excitement

[Blastyswa]

Options 2 destroy others gameplay...or so they say. If you farm twink gear on your Lv30 toon, their gameplay will be ruined forever.

If you see an Heroic Abbot with level 30 toons on Live, make sure to send a tell to the party leader telling him to put the lfm or you won't have fun in game ever again.

/sarcasm

Agreed. Personally there should be 0% reaper xp when going below 6 levels (After all, Reaper 10 Butcher's Path isn't as difficult as Reaper 10 LHoX) but rewards should stay intact. Even if players farm out complete twink sets of supreme awesomeness, those include (With full mythic and reaper bonuses, which would likely be a LOT of work) likely around +30 PRR/MRR and +30 MP/RP/SP. While that's a nice little bonus, and strong enough that I could potentially see myself grinding out some items like that, heroic content would not be trivialized by that, even on elite. When you move into attempting heroic content on any skull reaper difficulty there really isn't any huge massive benefit to having these twink sets; there is a decent sized benefit, but nothing game-breaking (And frankly it's much less game-breaking than having +120 HP from tank cores in all content when we're talking low levels).

[kemetka]

You're forgetting the huge uproar around the introduction of those items and the subsequent Dev decision to have that be a one-off based on that uproar!

The only argument actually FOR keeping those N/H/E items was that players could SELL them on the AH/ASAH - Players who already had plenty of plat/items to sell on shard exchange wanted more plat/shards from players who didn't have either!

And it was no longer "well given time you could farm those items yourself, you're just paying to get them earlier from someone who did the farming for you"
It became "can't run Elite, well I can and I'll sell you the item you need to be able to run Elite - Oh but it'll be at an exorbitant cost that I know you can't afford because you have nothing worth selling"


Tiered N/H/E Loot was A TERRIBLE idea!

none of those items were every required to run elite, and the differences between normal and hard were so small that the elite items were worth less because you could use the normal ones at an earlier level. please to find me 1 item from that era that was required to run elite, or was so much better than the normal version.

[Wizza]

none of those items were every required to run elite, and the differences between normal and hard were so small that the elite items were worth less because you could use the normal ones at an earlier level. please to find me 1 item from that era that was required to run elite, or was so much better than the normal version.

So the difference between a Normal and Elite loot was very little and not required to run elite, but yet a +2 stacking stat (+1 DC, +1 dmg) or 3 MP/RP/SP is somehow the end of the world and destroys all the challenge.

Not only that, but farming EE and just getting your item to drop was fine, but having to run Reaper (which is hard itself) and:

1) Roll to get an item
2) Roll to get the item you want
3) Roll to get a mythic bonus on it
4) Roll to get the highest mythic bonus on it
5) Roll to get Reaper equip bonus

is not acceptable and destroys the balance of TR/eTR (which balance? they are both dull, boring and easy) and the balance of Reaper.


Let's be clear: they could remove gear dropping when running overlevel for me personally, but not a single good argument was posed.

[Enoach]

none of those items were every required to run elite, and the differences between normal and hard were so small that the elite items were worth less because you could use the normal ones at an earlier level. please to find me 1 item from that era that was required to run elite, or was so much better than the normal version.

I agree that none of the Normal/Hard/Elite versions were required to run the difficulty. However, I would say the Quiver of Poison (d6 vs d10 damage) and Shamanic Fetish (108 spell power vs 120 and Clear vs Green Augment) would be a examples of a significant difference between the normal and elite versions. The downside being they are +2ML of the normal versions

The average poison damage increase is nearly double from Normal to Elite.
Now these are not game breaking but the Augment is one place where there is a higher flexibility for the gearing.

In most cases the big difference between Normal and Elite versions usually was in the Augment slots with maybe 12 points difference in spell power.

[FranOhmsford]

I agree that none of the Normal/Hard/Elite versions were required to run the difficulty. However, I would say the Quiver of Poison (d6 vs d10 damage) and Shamanic Fetish (108 spell power vs 120 and Clear vs Green Augment) would be a examples of a significant difference between the normal and elite versions. The downside being they are +2ML of the normal versions

The average poison damage increase is nearly double from Normal to Elite.
Now these are not game breaking but the Augment is one place where there is a higher flexibility for the gearing.

In most cases the big difference between Normal and Elite versions usually was in the Augment slots with maybe 12 points difference in spell power.

Yet again people ignore the CUMULATIVE BENEFITS!

It's not ONE item!

Add it up over 3,4,5 items and the difference gets quite noticeable!

[kemetka]

Yet again people ignore the CUMULATIVE BENEFITS!

It's not ONE item!

Add it up over 3,4,5 items and the difference gets quite noticeable!

meh never noticed i supposed, i got in the habit of stop swapping gear at GS item levels, and then most recently at level 13. and that usually stays on till 26 or so, gear doesnt make the game easier, skill and knowledge do.

as to the quiver of poison, i had forgotten the difference in EN to EE, as I'd scrapped that quiver a while ago, never used it and got tired of carying it from life to life. The augment flexabililty was nice for sure, but hardly needed to run any elite content, the most useful augments in the game ( across heroic and epic ) were at level 8 when they first came out, blindness immuinty, fear immunity, heavy fort, and then deathblock at level 12. however all of this came about well after cannith crafting was initial brought into the game and people had already either found an item for these necessities, or had crafted one for them. So again, not needed.

[kemetka]

So the difference between a Normal and Elite loot was very little and not required to run elite, but yet a +2 stacking stat (+1 DC, +1 dmg) or 3 MP/RP/SP is somehow the end of the world and destroys all the challenge.

Not only that, but farming EE and just getting your item to drop was fine, but having to run Reaper (which is hard itself) and:

1) Roll to get an item
2) Roll to get the item you want
3) Roll to get a mythic bonus on it
4) Roll to get the highest mythic bonus on it
5) Roll to get Reaper equip bonus

is not acceptable and destroys the balance of TR/eTR (which balance? they are both dull, boring and easy) and the balance of Reaper.


Let's be clear: they could remove gear dropping when running overlevel for me personally, but not a single good argument was posed.

you could always TR/eTR and go through the process running reaper on the quests you want getting the challenge you want but instead complain because you cant run any quest you want as a level 30 character when the content was designed to be challenged. seems we're both lacking arguments then.

also higher reaper difficulty does not = better chance of getting what you want, which means that anyone farming reaper is going to be doing it at reaper1, which is just elite with the chance of seeing reaper mobs. reaper1 isnt hard, neither is reaper2 or 3, sorry if you feel otherwise, however if people are going to be farming reaper for the sole purpose of farming reaper gear, then they would be circumventing the entire purpose of the reward system anyways, which again is why the put the level cap on it.

and lets face it reaper1 is going to be the new elite, and we'll find ourselves back to the game is too easy we need a challenge discussion in a year or so, just my personal prediction. The only way we're going to get actual challengeing content is with intellegent level design that challenges players, not by toying with numbers and scaling the players back in certain difficulties until they become those CR 1 kobolds wtih 12k hp.

[Enoach]

Yet again people ignore the CUMULATIVE BENEFITS!

It's not ONE item!

Add it up over 3,4,5 items and the difference gets quite noticeable!

The issue is that the same benefits don't stack. Until you use spells with multiple damage types +12 in Element X and +12 in Element Y does not stack.

Using Update 17 named items as an example http://ddowiki.com/page/Update_17_named_items

If you look at each item having the elite versions is an increment of 1 step better again usually via augments making them more flexible. But 3,4,5 items don't Stack on the same bonus, but do open up more flexibility.

Again, the cost of this additional flexibility is +2ML over the normal version. Basically, there really isn't a reason not to have the Normal, Hard and Elite versions of these items if you are willing to bank the items and update them from level to level.

[Wizza]

you could always TR/eTR and go through the process running reaper on the quests you want getting the challenge you want but instead complain because you cant run any quest you want as a level 30 character when the content was designed to be challenged. seems we're both lacking arguments then.

So you are telling me I have to be in constant TR/eTR to run quests that I want. And somehow I will also find a party on the same XP window. I'm quite sure I'm not the one lacking an argument.

What about triple completionists btw?

also higher reaper difficulty does not = better chance of getting what you want,

In fact, it does and stated so multiple times.

and lets face it reaper1 is going to be the new elite, and we'll find ourselves back to the game is too easy we need a challenge discussion in a year or so, just my personal prediction. The only way we're going to get actual challengeing content is with intellegent level design that challenges players, not by toying with numbers and scaling the players back in certain difficulties until they become those CR 1 kobolds wtih 12k hp.

Which is why the XP trees are awful and we all are voting to remove them. At least we agree on this point, but the lockout still doesn't make sense.

[kemetka]

So you are telling me I have to be in constant TR/eTR to run quests that I want. And somehow I will also find a party on the same XP window. I'm quite sure I'm not the one lacking an argument.

What about triple completionists btw? Oh yeah, we don't care about those, whatever.

insert alts vs. tr argument here along with all non raid items being bta now, or non bound. feel free to spin up a new iconic and romp through it if you want your main to sit at 30.
reaper1 is not difficult at all and easily soloable, same with 2 and 3. reaper5 id just call time consuming, and reaper 6+ is just a "dont get hit" obstacle course.
my main is well past triple everything so that statement means nothing to me.

In fact, it does and stated so multiple times.

source? i watched both previous streams yesterday and pretty sure coco said it didnt make a difference, though if i'm incorrect in this i'd sure like to know. may make the time spent in 5+ actually meaningful~ish.

Which is why the XP trees are awful and we all are voting to remove them. At least we agree on this point, but the lockout still doesn't make sense.

if there were no reward system i would agree with you. I personally could care less about the trees and the actual items, but the lockout is tied to the reward system, thats not verbatum but the gist of what cordo said in the dev interview / lunch stream.

[Wizza]

insert alts vs. tr argument here along with all non raid items being bta now, or non bound. feel free to spin up a new iconic and romp through it if you want your main to sit at 30.
reaper1 is not difficult at all and easily soloable, same with 2 and 3. reaper5 id just call time consuming, and reaper 6+ is just a "dont get hit" obstacle course.
my main is well past triple everything so that statement means nothing to me.



source? i watched both previous streams yesterday and pretty sure coco said it didnt make a difference, though if i'm incorrect in this i'd sure like to know. may make the time spent in 5+ actually meaningful~ish.



if there were no reward system i would agree with you. I personally could care less about the trees and the actual items, but the lockout is tied to the reward system, thats not verbatum but the gist of what cordo said in the dev interview / lunch stream.

I can't find the source right now, maybe someone else will.

Update is going Live this week, so discussion on Reaper doesn't really matter anymore. Severlin does what Severlin wants.

[TBot1234]

I personally could care less about the trees and the actual items, but the lockout is tied to the reward system, thats not verbatum but the gist of what cordo said in the dev interview / lunch stream.

Yes, that's been my understanding as well. One option would have been to implement cosmetic-only or other no-added-power rewards.

So, which of the following statements are true?

• the devs think that if Reaper were for challenge only then people would get bored of it and the whole new system would go unused after a brief period of time
• devs don't have a good handle on what their players will do once Reaper is live
• many players want to play Reaper with no progression or rewards system, despite what the devs think
• abandoning rewards systems altogether would eliminate the need for lockouts and would let the people who want Reaper-mode challenge to have it
• devs are unwilling to abandon the new Reaper Rewards systems and simply offer Reaper with no rewards and no overlevel lockout because it would be seen as wasting resources
• people say they purely want challenge, but really only want challenge if it comes with some kind of tangible reward
• the people wanting Reaper is a small but vocal part of the population so the elaborate rewards system is new carrot/grind to ensure this group spends more time and money in-game

[Blastyswa]

Yes, that's been my understanding as well. One option would have been to implement cosmetic-only or other no-added-power rewards.

So, which of the following statements are true?

• the devs think that if Reaper were for challenge only then people would get bored of it and the whole new system would go unused after a brief period of time
• devs don't have a good handle on what their players will do once Reaper is live
• many players want to play Reaper with no progression or rewards system, despite what the devs think
• abandoning rewards systems altogether would eliminate the need for lockouts and would let the people who want Reaper-mode challenge to have it
• devs are unwilling to abandon the new Reaper Rewards systems and simply offer Reaper with no rewards and no overlevel lockout because it would be seen as wasting resources
• people say they purely want challenge, but really only want challenge if it comes with some kind of tangible reward
• the people wanting Reaper is a small but vocal part of the population so the elaborate rewards system is new carrot/grind to ensure this group spends more time and money in-game

Somewhere or another I saw Cordovan or Steelstar or some developer (Not particularly precise I know) saying that the data they have access to shows the trend is for new content to be ran frequently on first release, and then largely neglected if there isn't a reason to continue running it. Once I saw that I adjusted my own opinions on how content is ran to match that, because if the data developers have access to is showing a vast majority of people run content a few times for fun and then largely neglect it, then that's what is going on. I also pretty much assumed that was the case before that was said (Madness 3 chain was a prime example). With that said, I agree with the developers and go further to say that plenty of people will ask for difficulty for difficulties sake, but that tends not to be followed through on without a carrot.

[BigErkyKid]

Yes, that's been my understanding as well. One option would have been to implement cosmetic-only or other no-added-power rewards.

So, which of the following statements are true?

• the devs think that if Reaper were for challenge only then people would get bored of it and the whole new system would go unused after a brief period of time
• devs don't have a good handle on what their players will do once Reaper is live
• many players want to play Reaper with no progression or rewards system, despite what the devs think
• abandoning rewards systems altogether would eliminate the need for lockouts and would let the people who want Reaper-mode challenge to have it
• devs are unwilling to abandon the new Reaper Rewards systems and simply offer Reaper with no rewards and no overlevel lockout because it would be seen as wasting resources
• people say they purely want challenge, but really only want challenge if it comes with some kind of tangible reward
• the people wanting Reaper is a small but vocal part of the population so the elaborate rewards system is new carrot/grind to ensure this group spends more time and money in-game

You can find me and many others on the record acknowledging that new difficulties without reward are pointless. Progression is at the base of MMOs.

What we were arguing over was the way those rewards / progression have been coded.

The fact that now there are even more freaking levels to acquire is aggravating, in particular because a lot of the people vocal asking for difficulty were end gamers.

Furthermore, the lock out is not letting people play old content in refreshed difficulty, which was one of the biggest appeals of reaper. For those who don't know, the game has almost no relevant content to play at cap. Most quests and even raids are trivially to play at cap.

So reaper really was pervert a wish. I can only hope that it brings enough money through reaper otto boxes to create a kick ass end game. Otherwise, pointless waste of time.

[Jasparion]

The main issue people have is that this change only supports a handful of quests and raids at level cap, which gets stale very quickly.
I get that scaling every quest to level 30 and then to reaper would be to much work.

There's just no playerbase to support running specific quests at very restricted level ranges, if the mode is "balanced party required". You need a point that catches most, and that is the level cap (I mean that's how it works in pretty much every game with an actual end game I have played).

21 dungeons and raids can be played at cap if it is level+2. It increases to 35 if it is level+4.

Plus, Reaper + 10 is not going to be pugged, no matter the level caps in place. People will only pre-made it.

[kemetka]

21 dungeons and raids can be played at cap if it is level+2. It increases to 35 if it is level+4.

Plus, Reaper + 10 is not going to be pugged, no matter the level caps in place. People will only pre-made it.

it'll get pugged or solo'd within the week, my prediction.

[kemetka]

Yes, that's been my understanding as well. One option would have been to implement cosmetic-only or other no-added-power rewards.

So, which of the following statements are true?

• the devs think that if Reaper were for challenge only then people would get bored of it and the whole new system would go unused after a brief period of time
• devs don't have a good handle on what their players will do once Reaper is live
• many players want to play Reaper with no progression or rewards system, despite what the devs think
• abandoning rewards systems altogether would eliminate the need for lockouts and would let the people who want Reaper-mode challenge to have it
• devs are unwilling to abandon the new Reaper Rewards systems and simply offer Reaper with no rewards and no overlevel lockout because it would be seen as wasting resources
• people say they purely want challenge, but really only want challenge if it comes with some kind of tangible reward
• the people wanting Reaper is a small but vocal part of the population so the elaborate rewards system is new carrot/grind to ensure this group spends more time and money in-game

1. i dont think that's the case, garner enough game knowledge and your sleep walking through most of the game as is, it's not like reaper changes the quest structure.
2. I don't think anyone will ever be able to account for the randomness of human behavior, though people will certainly try it.
3. ok
4. I agree with this
5. most likely, however they probably do crowd tests, and data collection about who runs what, how often, and in what fashion, and why before dedicating dev time for things.
6. to be quite honest i dont think that some of the people in the game want challenge i think they want harder monsters, challenge would come from the quest itself, and a few interesting boss / mini-boss's not a constant drove of mob after mob with increasing hp per update.
7.possible considering that sov pots are supposed to be usable in reaper. It could also be a ploy to get those that are still sitting on stock piles of card creations to use those up. Personally I'd like to have wilderness areas that scale and go to reaper, I wish there was a written or stated reason why we dont have those.

PERSONALLY :
what I would have likd to see as rewards are/were
cosmetics, im really happy with the one's that were shown.
feats, inline with the remnant bought ones, my thoughts : healing amp feats, additional action boosts per rest feats, item cool down feats ( reduce the cool downs for pots / scrolls etc.. )
a store where you could turn in reaper rewards ( points as it were now ) as a tradable commodity similar to remnants to get stuff like +1 hearts, alignment changes etc..
a new "REAPER" class - one that is HEAVILY tested for balance purposes.
name titles would have been good.
an aura would have worked.

any of those to signify that we did it would have worked well.

[Renvar]

we all are voting to remove them.

False.

A) Not everyone agrees with you.

B) Saying you are voting implies this is a democratic relationship. It isn't. You aren't voting. You are requesting.

[goodspeed]

False.

A) Not everyone agrees with you.

B) Saying you are voting implies this is a democratic relationship. It isn't. You aren't voting. You are requesting.

Well you know they could do any level. You just adjust the loot table based on level like how xp is in relation to a 20 walking into a lv 12 quest. Leave the xps and whatnot and then take away the named loot table toss ur average random **** in there that's usually in every chest lol.

BRILLIANT!

[kemetka]

I can't find the source right now, maybe someone else will.

Update is going Live this week, so discussion on Reaper doesn't really matter anymore. Severlin does what Severlin wants.

went back and listened to the livestream, yes higher chance of getting reaper bonus'd items on higher skulls, i was thinking of the higher chance of finding named items, which is static.