Some Info from todays tests

[Eth]

So yeah, if someone is looking for crowd control character DO NOT roll a wizard (unless you plan to CC non champion enemies as long as they can be CCed - for example you can give spiders a mean look only as a wizard. Not really sure why would you want to CC them, they die so fast it's smarter to save SP).

It's really borked that melee tactic DCs are exorbitantly higher than caster DCs, which is bad for balancing saves on mobs properly.
The saving grace for caster CC is the ability to target something other than fortitude.

[Angelic-council]

It's really borked that melee tactic DCs are exorbitantly higher than caster DCs, which is bad for balancing saves on mobs properly.
The saving grace for caster CC is the ability to target something other than fortitude.

Exactly.. along with other problems. That's what I been saying for years. Not only dire charge, but developers are unfair... If we ask them for casters buff, they give us greater ruin and abilities as such, but not everyone will benefit from it equally.. and later they adjust difficulty based on current powerhouse. That's how many builds become weak... because devs constantly adjust the game without carefully including every posibilities. Just to note: it take developers very long time to change something... People simply don't wait for that.

[nokowi]

It's really borked that melee tactic DCs are exorbitantly higher than caster DCs, which is bad for balancing saves on mobs properly.
The saving grace for caster CC is the ability to target something other than fortitude.

Casters only need a DC for a mobs worst save.

It's not borked, it's common sense that melee will fail against a mobs best save at the same time a caster can succeed vs their lowest save. There is no way DC's should be similar.

The exception to this is bard of course, which was poor implementation.


Dire charge is also poorly implemented, but it is available to casters as well as melee.

[Eth]

Casters only need a DC for a mobs worst save.

It's not borked, it's common sense that melee will fail against a mobs best save at the same time a caster can succeed vs their lowest save. There is no way DC's should be similar.

So because the melee can mostly target only one save (among some others like Str/Dex check or more specialized things like barbarian), it should get a free pass to not act according to it's own weaknesses and strengths?
You shouldn't be able to stun, assassinate or instakill (fort save based) an orc or giant (except heavy debuffs are used), unless he rolls a 1. That's my opinion on this topic.

Dire charge is also poorly implemented, but it is available to casters as well as melee.

It is.
As for casters, it's possible, but doesn't make much sense IMO. Try gearing a caster. I'd say what I run with currently on my caster is as close to perfect what I could come up with. If I'd try to fit in tactic DCs it would mess up everything. We got a very nice spell with burst of glacial wrath that already targets fortitude and inflicts helplessness. I'd rather stick with that, since you dont have to get close with mobs and my evocation DC is my second best DC anyway.

[BigErkyKid]

So because the melee can mostly target only one save (among some others like Str/Dex check or more specialized things like barbarian), it should get a free pass to not act according to it's own weaknesses and strengths?
You shouldn't be able to stun, assassinate or instakill (fort save based) an orc or giant (except heavy debuffs are used), unless he rolls a 1. That's my opinion on this topic.
.

No, it should get a free pass because you need to be in the mob's face to do it. There is a single AoE tactic stun in the game and it lasts 6 seconds. A caster can run around in circles and cast mass hold / disco / web at much lesser risk. In addition there is the to-hit issue with tactics. And for the coup de grace, tactic stuns typically target FORT saves, which are by far much higher than WILL saves.

[Eth]

No, it should get a free pass because you need to be in the mob's face to do it. There is a single AoE tactic stun in the game and it lasts 6 seconds. A caster can run around in circles and cast mass hold / disco / web at much lesser risk. In addition there is the to-hit issue with tactics.

No, can we stop this nonsense of promoting changes that make every class play the same?
It's ridiculous enough that they gave every character the choice to get a working AoE stun. Dire charged should be nuked from the orbit.
Casters should be better at CCing. Remember that huge spellbook they have, that your melee doesn't? Your melee can benefit from that and take out those CCed mobs without any risk. Single stuns are great for helping out your caster buddy by targeting that pesky caster first, which might give your caster buddy trouble. Remember casters usually won't hit you with hard melee attacks. Notice how I used the word buddy there? Right, remember, this is a PvE game, where you should work together.
Your goal shouldn't be to design a game where everything has the same power on every task.
These requests of classes that have no business doing certain things, demanding abilites to do the same that other classes are ought to do well, is what brought us to the boring state the game is in, where everyone can do everything.
/rant

[BigErkyKid]

No, can we stop this nonsense of promoting changes that make every class play the same?

OK?

It's ridiculous enough that they gave every character the choice to get a working AoE stun. Dire charged should be nuked from the orbit.

Agreed.

Casters should be better at CCing. Remember that huge spellbook they have, that your melee doesn't? Your melee can benefit from that and take out those CCed mobs without any risk.

So melee should be all about auto attacking? Part of the beauty of melee is that you can use tactical abilities to disable your enemies. In DnD there are far more, but nevertheless, you should be able to CC too in a melee toon.

Single stuns are great for helping out your caster buddy by targeting that pesky caster first, which might give your caster buddy trouble. Remember casters usually won't hit you with hard melee attacks. Notice how I used the word buddy there? Right, remember, this is a PvE game, where you should work together.

You work together <=> there should be only one way to do things. If someone wants to play in a party with a caster CCing, that is fine. However, if some others want to team up and CC in close quarters, that should be OK too. The problem is not the ability to CC, but rather the relative strength of each option.

Your goal shouldn't be to design a game where everything has the same power on every task.

My goal would be to design a game where any task can be done in very many different ways. So as long as you invest sufficiently in it, and it plays differently, by all means give options to people!

These requests of classes that have no business doing certain things, demanding abilites to do the same that other classes are ought to do well, is what brought us to the boring state the game is in, where everyone can do everything.
/rant

This request is in DnD, and as such also in DDO. Fighters can disarm, stun, trip, and so on in DnD, and the same goes for other melees. A fighter specialized in those things should suffer in other areas, though. It is called trade offs.

So to sum it up. I do believe in cooperation and people focusing on doing certain things, and in needing a party to play the hardest content. However, I disagree that we should move towards a game requiring cookie cutter options to be played effectively.

[Eth]

However, if some others want to team up and CC in close quarters, that should be OK too. The problem is not the ability to CC, but rather the relative strength of each option.

Well you can. Tactic builds have the better DCs than casters. Oh and let's not forget archers, that can get their free CC while DPSing.

My goal would be to design a game where any task can be done in very many different ways. So as long as you invest sufficiently in it, and it plays differently, by all means give options to people!

Of course.

This request is in DnD, and as such also in DDO. Fighters can disarm, stun, trip, and so on in DnD, and the same goes for other melees. A fighter specialized in those things should suffer in other areas, though. It is called trade offs.

Agreed.

So to sum it up. I do believe in cooperation and people focusing on doing certain things, and in needing a party to play the hardest content. However, I disagree that we should move towards a game requiring cookie cutter options to be played effectively.

So you rather want a game where all your abilities work all the time, like CCing against strong saves on your tactics builds, so your build can play in all content with no issues, never having to adapt.
Yea, that's the game we have right now already.

I stand by my point. Having tactics outrange caster DCs by a landslide is bad for balancing saves correctly.

[Vanhooger]

Well you can. Tactic builds have the better DCs than casters. Oh and let's not forget archers, that can get their free CC while DPSing.


Of course.


Agreed.


So you rather want a game where all your abilities work all the time, like CCing against strong saves on your tactics builds, so your build can play in all content with no issues, never having to adapt.
Yea, that's the game we have right now already.

I stand by my point. Having tactics outrange caster DCs by a landslide is bad for balancing saves correctly.

The only one ability that is where it should be is quivering palm even if everyone complained about it. If you build for it you can get mob with low fort save, but not a hope to get high mob save, that should be the same for any other cc ability/spell

[BigErkyKid]

So you rather want a game where all your abilities work all the time, like CCing against strong saves on your tactics builds, so your build can play in all content with no issues, never having to adapt.

The problem, IMO, is that it is too easy to achieve no fail DC. If no fail DC required heavy investment in tactics (besides some gear), then it would be better. For instance, we have Netherese on a fighter that takes both THF and TWF (so DPS focus), and he stuns, for all matters, equally well as a fighter that took tactical feats and gave up on the DPS.

Or you have me on a DEX monk with secondary WIS (60), and I still can get most if not all enemies.

I stand by my point. Having tactics outrange caster DCs by a landslide is bad for balancing saves correctly.

Abilities should not only be balanced on DC. Other factors:

- single target VS aoe
- melee - short distance VS long range
- cooldown
- primary ability VS secondary ability (bards should have never received CHA to damage)
- cost (spell points, KI)

Everything considered, I don't think that even now tactical melee abilities overpower caster based CC. For the most part tactical melee abilities are extremely niche and one update / expansion away from becoming worthless (more focus on undead and they are a goner).

[Kebtid]

The only one ability that is where it should be is quivering palm even if everyone complained about it. If you build for it you can get mob with low fort save, but not a hope to get high mob save, that should be the same for any other cc ability/spell

I agree with this fully.
If for example they did 1 change with qpalm it would become severly op again, just change save to will save and viola it suddenly works on almost everything without entirely gimping your monk.

When i came back from work back to ddo 2 feats struck me like mad, 2 feats that totally destroy power ballance atm.
First being dire charge, while i must say i love it on my centerd alt, and tree main , and wraps user 2nd alt, i totally think its broken as hell and should be nerfed to oblivion.
Whoever decided to put that in the game didnt have a clue about how broken it would be.

2nd is master of knowledge, that feat with its bugs is entirely breaking the game.
Even if it worked as intended it would still be broken imho.

So casters (all because bugs) got master of knowledge, and melles got dire charge.

Both parties, from my perspective as someone who was gone for a year got 2 absurdely broken feats that werent needed.
I mean you can do a junk warlock hp con thing and to some way utilize dire charge /not like i would ever do it but some people do it.

Also to add 1 more thing, i didn't notice that they changed the saves WE need as players, but only saves we need to bypass as caster/tacticals user.
Am i wrong with that observation?
I expected that id need 20 average more saves for most reaper content, but with current saves i was fine vs anything that was thrown at me.

[Eth]

Abilities should not only be balanced on DC.

Yes, they should. We still have a D20 system in place. You can't balance a monster save around an attainable DC of one classes ability, when another classes maxed out potential on it's own class specific ability, that targets the same save, has a DC that is 20 or more points lower. If you do that you just killed that classes ability, further killing diversity. It's that simple.

The closer you keep attainable DCs, the easier you can adjust monster saves. If you notice one ability is completely broken and start balancing saves around that, you break everything else.
Having huge gaps in attainable DCs has a much higher risk of turning reaper into a one dimensional one trick pony show.

To be fair, so far they usually just nuked the abilities from the orbit, if they turned out OP (see QP, EiN), instead of adjusting saves.
And saves that they got completely wrong (ToEE, Epic Amrath) just get balanced 3 updates later by throwing more unncessary DC boosts at us, further unbalancing any older content.

[Mr_Helmet]

Just play warlocks, shiradi spammers, and throwers. It's what SSG wants you to do.

[BigErkyKid]

Yes, they should. We still have a D20 system in place. You can't balance a monster save around an attainable DC of one classes ability, when another classes maxed out potential on it's own class specific ability, that targets the same save, has a DC that is 20 or more points lower. If you do that you just killed that classes ability, further killing diversity. It's that simple.

The closer you keep attainable DCs, the easier you can adjust monster saves. If you notice one ability is completely broken and start balancing saves around that, you break everything else.
Having huge gaps in attainable DCs has a much higher risk of turning reaper into a one dimensional one trick pony show.

To be fair, so far they usually just nuked the abilities from the orbit, if they turned out OP (see QP, EiN), instead of adjusting saves.
And saves that they got completely wrong (ToEE, Epic Amrath) just get balanced 3 updates later by throwing more unncessary DC boosts at us, further unbalancing any older content.

C'mon! I am not disagreeing that DCs are somehow borked. But I think it is obvious that balancing ONLY around DCs is a mistake. And you agree with me, although you felt the need to make a point out of it.

Let's see if we agree:

A fighter specialization in tactics should have achievable DCs on tactical abilities that are higher than casters. The reason being that most of the tactical abilities are single target with long cool downs. However, a fighter focusing on DPS should not.

And from here we can build on.

[Mr_Helmet]

Let's see if we agree:

A fighter specialization in tactics should have achievable DCs on tactical abilities that are higher than casters. The reason being that most of the tactical abilities are single target with long cool downs. However, a fighter focusing on DPS should not.

And from here we can build on.

Since they can't reach the DPS or Rangers*, monks, or broken builds I don't agree with this. Especially since Monks are even better** stunners.




* Maybe they can, I just couldn't in any of my tests
** going of assumptions, haven't crunched recent numbers.

[LavidDynch]

Just play warlocks, shiradi spammers, and throwers. It's what SSG wants you to do.

On live there are no reasons to play anything but these...

In reaper it seemed more balanced apart from instantkill-builds was dominating and that melee was very squishy and the first of the gang to die. Nothing that can't be tweaked by some clever engineer.

[BigErkyKid]

Since they can't reach the DPS or Rangers*, monks, or broken builds I don't agree with this. Especially since Monks are even better** stunners.

* Maybe they can, I just couldn't in any of my tests
** going of assumptions, haven't crunched recent numbers.

We were talking about melee VS caster based CC. I used fighter as an archetype; the character that fights in close quarters. I don't know where the within melee DCs should be right now.

[BigErkyKid]

instantkill-builds was dominating and that melee was very squishy .

I was wondering if oozes / AA terror would be the way to go. If in high skulls high level quests saves are too hard for insta-killers, I mean.

Obviously everything ranged.

[LavidDynch]

I was wondering if oozes / AA terror would be the way to go. If in high skulls high level quests saves are too hard for insta-killers, I mean.

Obviously everything ranged.

I'll assume they fix some of the most obvious problems such as oozes... Lamma felt a bit like an incomplete mess, the mess was still more fun than on live servers, but hopefully its far from the end product... so maybe we shouldn't draw too many conclusions from the lammania experience.

I'm not sure kiting is the way to go for squishys (anything but tank) mobs felt faster than on live, and various ranged mobs did truckloads (1-3k+) of dmg... but if they don't do anything towards ooze-cheeze -- then yeah, it would probably work.

[Kebtid]

I'll assume they fix some of the most obvious problems such as oozes... Lamma felt a bit like an incomplete mess, the mess was still more fun than on live servers, but hopefully its far from the end product... so maybe we shouldn't draw too many conclusions from the lammania experience.

I'm not sure kiting is the way to go for squishys (anything but tank) mobs felt faster than on live, and various ranged mobs did truckloads (1-3k+) of dmg... but if they don't do anything towards ooze-cheeze -- then yeah, it would probably work.

Ive pointed it out to devs, no idea if they will fix it.

Tho in all honesty, i always wanted those druid past lifes and those pet twists to be used for something in this game xD