No Self Healing Debuff

[Vanhooger]

With the current build R1 will be the new elite when you do TR / Iconic lives, as you wrote it's easy and gives a good bunch of xp.

Yes, it will be for most people. If you can't handle it you can always do elite.

[Mr_Helmet]

Damage being scaled down to 10% of max is really what will force you to group, not any sort of self healing nerf. That's just an added FU to any build that is set to be self-reliant. It's really, from the top down, a dumb idea. Let's break it down.

1 - If the amount of damage coming in is so light that rejuv/renew is enough to beat it, then you will not suddenly see an influx of dedicated divines. What you'll see is everyone twisting renew instead of rejuv since it's a much better heal and you just all heal each other as the damage comes in. This is pretty much how it is on live anyways in regular groups. If I have rejuv/renewal I toss it on whoever is hurt.

2 - If the amount of damage is so great that rejuv/renew can't keep up then a self healing character isn't going to rely on that to begin with and will have to rely on a dedicated healer -anyways-. The important thing here to note is that it will be -regardless- of whether or not he could self heal. Self healing (or the lack thereof) does not change the dynamic at all.

3 - The source of a heal doesn't really matter anyways. What does it matter WHO cast the heal? If you really wanted to force grouping, make it so that each player cannot do more then 21% of a mobs HP in damage. If you want to kill it you have to bring at least 5 people. BAM, GROUPING FORCED! It accomplishes the exactly same goal.

Let's make it pretty clear here that if Divines brought something to the table other then the ability to spam mass heal and greater resto they wouldn't have taken a back seat. Unfortunately DDO is designed such that wizards are far greater buffers/healers/specialists. Blur, otto's, mass hold, all the insta-kills, haste, etc...all these offer groups far more then what a Cleric can bring. Those spells will prevent more damage then a divine will ever heal.

Druids have EarthQuake and....that's about it for useful divine spells to benefit the party.

You want to encourage groups to bring Divines? Don't nerf healing. Give divines some useful stuff. 20% 'divine' haste. +4 'divine' bonus to stats. A special 'divine' hold person that works even on red/purple bosses, no save/no SR (lasts 3 seconds, 1 min cooldown, puts debuff on boss so no more then 2 can be cast per minute). +25% incorp 'divine' buff that even bypasses ghost touch. +10 mp/rp 'divine' buff. Replace all those crappy low level spells that have resistance or enhancement bonuses and make it a stacking 'divine' bonus. Make a higher level version of 'find traps' that is 'suppress traps' which when cast in an area prevents traps from activating for X seconds per divine level.

And so forth.

This person gets it

[Qhualor]

Yes, it will be for most people. If you can't handle it you can always do elite.

I remember a time, "if you can't handle elite you can always do normal."

Can't wait for, "if you can't handle R10 you can always do R5."

[Natashaelle]

some build that work in reaper will not work outside of it

oh ... please ...

"some build that work in leet will not work in hard"

[Natashaelle]

No, that is only why some people are bad at the game.

yay !!! the awesome (???) return of Elitist Wars !!!

[Wizza]

yay !!! the awesome (???) return of Elitist Wars !!!

Im no elitist. Just Rys's minion (see my sig).

[Caarb]

I mean, don't join that pug then? I really see no issues. If you see a pug for Reaper, don't join it if you think it's gonna be a waste of time.

You want to run Reaper for more XP, but at the same time you don't want to get more XP for facing more challenge. Sorry, I don't agree with you.

This how I see it playing out:

1 LFM up at the appropriate level range
"Elite BB until group fills then do reaper"

Group forms next quest leader goes for Reaper 5 skulls as he enjoys the challenge - choice is to drop group which will effectively stop the reaper run before it starts or continue and wipe several times to completion (better hope someone has cakes).

I don't wont to run reaper for more xp I don't think it is a mode that works very well while levelling outside of guild or static groups. It sounds cool for high level content but while levelling it will dilute the pool of people to group with even further. If it was a more binary decision ie can you handle reaper or not I would totally go for it while levelling as older elite quests are too easy.

But back to the topic self healing nerf is silly. Having a dedicated healer that cant heal itself is poor design. Nerfing overall healing (by smaller amounts) would add challenge if the mobs didn't 1 shot you. Throughput becomes important instead of every heal healing to full.

[Visty]

It will change the dynamic of healing, and self centered play.

You see, clerics are missing in action. Unnecessary.
Reaper, if anything, should promote the return of the healer class.
Because there was a time when roles mattered.
But with the advent of cocoon, that disappeared.
If the only way to return healers to the battleground is to nerf self healing,
Then there you have it.

Now, everybody will have to be the cleric, watching teammates red bars.
That is an essential skill that has been lost.
Even now, clerics don't know how to heal,
It is a sad state.
That is because cocoon is the answer
No need for a healer when you do it yourself
This of course will require teamwork of a different kind
Where everyone watches each others backs.
So it should drastically change the view of the game.
A paradigm shift
What was old is new again.

so one guy doing a job (healing the group) is teamplay but one guy doing a job (killing the mobs in the VON puzzle) isnt teamwork?

[Mr_Helmet]

so one guy doing a job (healing the group) is teamplay but one guy doing a job (killing the mobs in the VON puzzle) isnt teamwork?

For some reason people don't think splitting up and doing different tasks simultaneously is teamwork.

Teamwork must only be having the 4 clerics and bard heal the barbarian.

[Vanhooger]

I remember a time, "if you can't handle elite you can always do normal."

Can't wait for, "if you can't handle R10 you can always do R5."

What is wrong with that? If I cant do r10 I do r9.
If I can't do r9 will do r8 and so on.
There are several difficulty every game, choose the one that is right for you. Problem with ddo player is they feel entitled to run the max difficulty no matter what and crush the content solo speedrunning it naked.

[Vanhooger]

oh ... please ...

"some build that work in leet will not work in hard"

Do a healer for reaper, useless outside of it.
Do a cc build for reaper...nearly useles outside of reaper as mob die in .3 milliseconds
Do a tank, useless outside of really few legendary elite raid.
Also most build will need to tweak ench/destiny/feat that will be useless outside of reaper, so please...

[Thrudh]

so one guy doing a job (healing the group) is teamplay but one guy doing a job (killing the mobs in the VON puzzle) isnt teamwork?

So send two guys to do the puzzle now in VON5, and heal each other... There you go, team work.

Just like in the original Shroud, I use to take one of the healers with me to the nw, I would pull the devil there, and hold them on me with Intimidate (and slowly whittle him down). The healer would keep me alive, and when everything was prepped, I would kill it.

That was teamwork.

Splitting up to do different tasks solo can also be considered teamwork, somewhat... but four people soloing different parts of a dungeon isn't quite the same.

[Visty]

So send two guys to do the puzzle now in VON5, and heal each other... There you go, team work.

thats teamwork too, yes

but that doesnt mean that doing that alone isnt teamwork

[Qhualor]

What is wrong with that? If I cant do r10 I do r9.
If I can't do r9 will do r8 and so on.
There are several difficulty every game, choose the one that is right for you. Problem with ddo player is they feel entitled to run the max difficulty no matter what and crush the content solo speedrunning it naked.

Because we have already been down this road before abut playing normal if elite is too hard for someone. Now look at where we are.

[Natashaelle]

Do a healer for reaper, useless outside of it.

That sounds like "fun". (anyway I think you're wrong - you falsely assume that "a healer" can do nothing else, or you're just assuming that everyone wants to minimax every single detail)

Do a cc build for reaper...nearly useles outside of reaper as mob die in .3 milliseconds
Do a tank, useless outside of really few legendary elite raid.
Also most build will need to tweak ench/destiny/feat that will be useless outside of reaper, so please...

So you're suggesting that reaper will only ever be played by a few elitists at the endgame ?

Your notion of "useless" is of course an example of leet-speak.

[BigErkyKid]

So you're suggesting that reaper will only ever be played by a few elitists at the endgame ?

Your notion of "useless" is of course an example of leet-speak.

He is right though. If you are interested in playing the highest possible skull, you will probably need extremely specialized builds.

Want to do some caster CC? Given the skulls will increase saves, you will need to pump your enchant. The more you go for enchant, the fewer feats for other schools, gear slots, twists, etc. Now enchant is not that needed in other content.

This is just an example.

Take BF fighters, likely to become less popular than fleshy fighters, even though in live BF is much better than human due to reconstruct.

And so on.

[Vanhooger]

That sounds like "fun". (anyway I think you're wrong - you falsely assume that "a healer" can do nothing else, or you're just assuming that everyone wants to minimax every single detail)



So you're suggesting that reaper will only ever be played by a few elitists at the endgame ?

Your notion of "useless" is of course an example of leet-speak.

If the content is really difficult, you need to min max otherwise you fail. If you don't need to min max to run high skull, then reaper isn't that difficult and doesn't achive what it is supposed to do. Give challenge to people who want challenge. If you read dev comment as well, they said reaper isn't for everyone, so yes.
I don't get why people who want challenge has to be called elitist.

[Natashaelle]

If the content is really difficult, you need to min max otherwise you fail. If you don't need to min max to run high skull, then reaper isn't that difficult and doesn't achive what it is supposed to do. Give challenge to people who want challenge. If you read dev comment as well, they said reaper isn't for everyone, so yes.
I don't get why people who want challenge has to be called elitist.

For me the term refers to those who try & dictate to others how to play, and then describe as "useless" anything that fails to obey the diktats.

This doesn't mean "people who want challenge".

[Vanhooger]

For me the term refers to those who try & dictate to others how to play, and then describe as "useless" anything that fails to obey the diktats.

This doesn't mean "people who want challenge".

I am not dictating anything. As the difficult increase, you need to adapt if you want to do some progress.
If you don't agree with me, It's fine but going in reaper 6+ skull with suboptimal build, will probably get your group wiped by mob, and then after that please don't come to the forum asking for nerf to reaper because you can't do r10.

[nokowi]

For some reason people don't think splitting up and doing different tasks simultaneously is teamwork.

Teamwork must only be having the 4 clerics and bard heal the barbarian.

The fact is, when each player can survive on their own in this manner, the game can not be very challenging.

Inter-dependence is a requirement (by design for reaper) when the content actually becomes challenging.

Players can choose low enough reaper settings to play in the manner you desire, or they can split into two groups on a higher setting, or they can all stay together on the highest settings.