No Self Healing Debuff

[nokowi]

For me the term refers to those who try & dictate to others how to play, and then describe as "useless" anything that fails to obey the diktats.

This doesn't mean "people who want challenge".

The amount of hate for reaper from those who will never play it is indicative of this --> they are trying to dictate how others play, the reward others get, etc.

I see few power players dictating what EN or heroic normal should look like.

I see lots of casual players trying to dictate what EE/LE and reaper look like.

[Mr_Helmet]

The fact is, when each player can survive on their own in this manner, the game can not be very challenging.

Wrong

[Natashaelle]

I am not dictating anything. As the difficult increase, you need to adapt if you want to do some progress.
If you don't agree with me, It's fine but going in reaper 6+ skull with suboptimal build, will probably get your group wiped by mob, and then after that please don't come to the forum asking for nerf to reaper because you can't do r10.

The sub-topic here isn't "nerf reaper" !!! It's "self-healing debuffs affect clerics disproportionately".

But you're still using such elitist language as "sub-optimal", and despite claiming not to dictate "anything" you're still expecting people to "adapt", clearly to some build expectations that you seem to think of as being "required".

I want to be clear here -- I am NOT trying to portray your gaming preferences as being "wrong" or anything, but there is more than just one narrow way to play DDO, which is one of the game's core strengths and attractions, and there is no reason why Reaper should exclude this ; because it's part of DDO.

Some players, and you appear to be one of them, enjoy the challenge of creating the most effective possible characters using the vast possibilities and variations that the game provides.

Others prefer exploring those vast possibilities and variations for fun and in their own right.

But these are not "opposites" in some kind of spectrum between "optimal" and "suboptimal" (elitist language), but in fact they are the elements of playing style in this game.

And they are certainly not mutually contradictory -- not a small number of players like to try some completely wacky builds for fun, and then try and find ways to get them to work in even the more difficult content, for more fun.

Plus other playing styles, all equally valid in their own terms.

If Reaper is built in a way that "punishes" some playing styles and "rewards" others, then it will fail, as the "old epics" did in their time -- this is NOT a question of the individual features of individual characters, because NO Reaper cannot be welcoming to the weakest characters in the game worlds, as it is intended to be challenging even to the more well-developed and well-geared ones. It is a question that, historically, in the development of DDO, attempting to railroad people into particular playing styles has never been a successful strategy.

Nerfing the self-healing of classes with primary healing powers to the same degree as the self-healing of classes with no such powers except via epic destinies and UMD and whatnot can only unbalance those classes in relation to the others. Of course, characters having those classes will be healable by others in Reaper -- so that clearly some sort of intention towards player cooperation and balance exists -- but those classes will still be weakened more than the others by the self-healing debuffs because, despite everyone and their pet dog having strong self-healing in the present state of affairs, not everyone has it as a primary class ability.

I am NOT saying that primary healing powers should be "exempted" from the Reaper debuffs -- which would be blatantly self-defeating -- I'm suggesting that the debuffs should be mitigated to some degree for those powers specifically and those powers alone ; but for example a heal scroll or a cure wand or a ED power or whatever magic item etc should be debuffed to the same degree regardless of who's using it. Even if the mitigation were relatively minor -- say (% x 0.9) (so that -96% in 10 skulls would be mitigated to a still fairly hefty -86%) or so for a character's own class spells and powers, and only for those spells and powers & nothing else -- then the imbalance would be alleviated ; and without ruining the principles of Reaper.

[Natashaelle]

The amount of hate for reaper from those who will never play it is indicative of this --> they are trying to dictate how others play, the reward others get, etc.

I see few power players dictating what EN or heroic normal should look like.

I see lots of casual players trying to dictate what EE/LE and reaper look like.

I have no idea why you are trying to accuse me of these things, none of which I have even attempted, nor do I actually support any of it, especially not the "hate".

I certainly will play reaper, just like EE/LE

[Vanhooger]

The sub-topic here isn't "nerf reaper" !!! It's "self-healing debuffs affect clerics disproportionately".

But you're still using such elitist language as "sub-optimal", and despite claiming not to dictate "anything" you're still expecting people to "adapt", clearly to some build expectations that you seem to think of as being "required".

I want to be clear here -- I am NOT trying to portray your gaming preferences as being "wrong" or anything, but there is more than just one narrow way to play DDO, which is one of the game's core strengths and attractions, and there is no reason why Reaper should exclude this ; because it's part of DDO.

Some players, and you appear to be one of them, enjoy the challenge of creating the most effective possible characters using the vast possibilities and variations that the game provides.

Others prefer exploring those vast possibilities and variations for fun and in their own right.

But these are not "opposites" in some kind of spectrum between "optimal" and "suboptimal" (elitist language), but in fact they are the elements of playing style in this game.

And they are certainly not mutually contradictory -- not a small number of players like to try some completely wacky builds for fun, and then try and find ways to get them to work in even the more difficult content, for more fun.

Plus other playing styles, all equally valid in their own terms.

If Reaper is built in a way that "punishes" some playing styles and "rewards" others, then it will fail, as the "old epics" did in their time -- this is NOT a question of the individual features of individual characters, because NO Reaper cannot be welcoming to the weakest characters in the game worlds, as it is intended to be challenging even to the more well-developed and well-geared ones. It is a question that, historically, in the development of DDO, attempting to railroad people into particular playing styles has never been a successful strategy.

Nerfing the self-healing of classes with primary healing powers to the same degree as the self-healing of classes with no such powers except via epic destinies and UMD and whatnot can only unbalance those classes in relation to the others. Of course, characters having those classes will be healable by others in Reaper -- so that clearly some sort of intention towards player cooperation and balance exists -- but those classes will still be weakened more than the others by the self-healing debuffs because, despite everyone and their pet dog having strong self-healing in the present state of affairs, not everyone has it as a primary class ability.

I am NOT saying that primary healing powers should be "exempted" from the Reaper debuffs -- which would be blatantly self-defeating -- I'm suggesting that the debuffs should be mitigated to some degree for those powers specifically and those powers alone ; but for example a heal scroll or a cure wand or a ED power or whatever magic item etc should be debuffed to the same degree regardless of who's using it. Even if the mitigation were relatively minor -- say (% x 0.9) (so that -96% in 10 skulls would be mitigated to a still fairly hefty -86%) or so for a character's own class spells and powers, and only for those spells and powers & nothing else -- then the imbalance would be alleviated ; and without ruining the principles of Reaper.

Lol, I don't get what is wrong to expect to be min maxed on the highest difficulty setting, if you play normal/hard/elite nobody will ask you that, at least not me since you can run naked and zerg it.

I use the term of sub-optimal because you know that you need certain ability/feat/ench and different mindest to run reaper, if you want to stick to your comfort zone playstyle you will fail, and as I said before reaper isn't meant to appeal everyone.

Suppose you play in the UK premier league, and as a coach tell them, play at 50% of your potential every game, because I don't feel like using our maximum potential is good(does it even make sense lol).

What is happening at the end of the season? Probably relegated.

As,for the self healing I get that can be frustrating as a Cleric not able to heal yourself but it you could everyone will split some cleric level to get self heal.

Self heal nerf is really the only one thing they did right in this reaper.

It stop zerg and that is the biggest part.
It make you think that you need to watch out for your team mate or they will die, other then just press auto-attack, but I guess it's to hard doing two things togheter
If you can't self heal, you can't solo, reaper isn't for solo.

[nokowi]

I have no idea why you are trying to accuse me of these things, none of which I have even attempted, nor do I actually support any of it, especially not the "hate".

I certainly will play reaper, just like EE/LE

They has a different meaning than you. I'm glad to hear you are not stereotyping other people when their preferences are different than yours. I stand by my statement that their has been a concerted effort by those who have no interest in reaper to demand how other people play, and apologize to you if you still think this means I am saying that about you.

The top priority for reaper is that it be challenging, followed by having mechanics that force players to work together.

Devs felt self healing debuff was necessary to create this type of environment.

It is D&D lore - inconsistent, but unless devs spend the effort to come up with other types of challenge (I suggested the crazy idea of not letting players build to never fail saving throws), self healing debuff is here to stay.

You would need to suggest other forms of challenge to replace self healing debuff, as I have. Giving only divines self healing will not work well because they will be too powerful compared to other builds.

Playing sub-optimal characters and asking content be built around this philosophy is inconsistent with the goals of reaper (DM wants to kill you). If you want to play sub-optimal characters, you are welcome to play reaper but you may not enjoy the experience.

[Natashaelle]

It is D&D lore

erm no -- the Lore position is that Clerics do not self-heal, but their deities provide the healing

Giving only divines self healing will not work well because they will be too powerful compared to other builds.

I'm proposing a certain degree of debuff mitigation for primary healing powers ONLY -- certainly NOT exempting anyone from the debuffs !!! If they were, it'd simply destroy Reaper, as "everyone" would either just splash or play the classes that had such exemptions.

Playing sub-optimal characters and asking content be built around this philosophy is inconsistent with the goals of reaper (DM wants to kill you). If you want to play sub-optimal characters, you are welcome to play reaper but you may not enjoy the experience.

Again, vocabulary like "sub-optimal" is elitist, and IMO unhelpful.

Isn't it better to think of Reaper as a new gaming/learning experience than as a special preservation of "us versus them" ??

[Natashaelle]

Lol, I don't get what is wrong to expect to be min maxed

errmmmm --- exactly nothing ?

Being minimaxed is not the same thing as to try and impose minimaxing on others. (1st Edition AD&D Wisdom from the 1980s)

I use the term of sub-optimal because you know that you need certain ability/feat/ench and different mindest to run reaper, if you want to stick to your comfort zone playstyle you will fail, and as I said before reaper isn't meant to appeal everyone.

Well FWIW anyway I agree about the certain mindset, but this does not determine playing style -- and personally, as an inveterate altoholic, though I do have a comfort zone, sticking to it is off the table. It just bores me utterly from time to time.

Maybe you're confusing play style with build preferences ?

Not everyone has a mindset towards playing the most challenging content of DDO -- but not everyone with that mindset will want any playing style to be radically imposed upon them willy-nilly.

Healing was a serious matter in the "old epics" back when cap was 20, and everyone was still scratching their heads about "vast and mysterious".

Even including 0% healing debuffs from any sources.

To this day, some players are alienated by the highest level content from their bad memories from that period. One of my guildies, BTW a very good player from any POV, has been spamming heroic TR rather than play Epic precisely because of bad memories from the "old epics". (he finally decided to bite the level 21+ bullet in December)

Suppose you play in the UK premier league, and as a coach tell them, play at 50% of your potential every game, because I don't feel like using our maximum potential is good(does it even make sense lol).

Of course that doesn't make sense, but that's because you're using a false analogy.

Again -- I have NO IDEA why you seem to think I'm trying to attack your gaming preferences

As,for the self healing I get that can be frustrating as a Cleric not able to heal yourself but it you could everyone will split some cleric level to get self heal.

I have not suggested that Clerics should have no healing debuff -- I have suggested that a slight mitigation of the debuff would provide better class balance without ruining the Reaper design.

Self heal nerf is really the only one thing they did right in this reaper.

It stop zerg and that is the biggest part.
It make you think that you need to watch out for your team mate or they will die, other then just press auto-attack, but I guess it's to hard doing two things togheter
If you can't self heal, you can't solo, reaper isn't for solo.

From the Battle Cleric perspective, if you're incapable of stopping what you want to do to heal others instead, then you simply don't understand how to play Cleric.

Of course, given the current super self-healing for everyone and his pet dog, soloing has become the norm, rather than an option.

[Visty]

The top priority for reaper is that it be challenging, followed by having mechanics that force players to work together.

and yet limiting selfhealing doesnt mean its more challenging nor that people will work together

its really a nonargument

[Qhualor]

and yet limiting selfhealing doesnt mean its more challenging nor that people will work together

its really a nonargument

whats interesting and hypocritical is that awhile back there was some threads about nerfing healing across the board because some, including me, said it was too powerful. we were shouted down by some of the same players that are posting how much they like this challenge in Reaper.

[Ellihor]

and yet limiting selfhealing doesnt mean its more challenging nor that people will work together

its really a nonargument

Actually, it does. Isn't it obvious that watching other people's health is harder than your own? Isn't it obvious that doing that also means you have to work with each other?

[Ellihor]

Again, vocabulary like "sub-optimal" is elitist, and IMO unhelpful.

How exactly? He is just callng a thing for what it is. Reaper is desinged to challange what is the most optimal builds/party layouts desinged to beat that challenge, in other words, the most optimal for it, and what is not the most optimal is by definition sub-optimal. I don't understand why using the term is "elitism".

I'd say the oppposite: you trying to shut down information by not calling things what they are, is actually the elitism happening here.

[Visty]

Actually, it does. Isn't it obvious that watching other people's health is harder than your own?

nop, it isnt

Isn't it obvious that doing that also means you have to work with each other?

not necessarily. it just means that you need a healer for your healer

also you can work as a team while healing yourself

[Wizza]

nop, it isnt


not necessarily. it just means that you need a healer for your healer

also you can work as a team while healing yourself

It's funny how the argument of "limiting self healing is not gonna bring teamwork" is just "its not". Well, it is. Paying attention to how much damage your party takes, being responsive and heal them, they are all going to contribute to working as a team. We have seen what self-healing does to this game, and it is exactly what we have on live, six people soloing in the same party.

The healer needs no healer. It just needs to learn to position itself behind the lines, wear SA to avoid big spells dmg, use invis etc etc.

[Visty]

It's funny how the argument of "self healing is not teamwork" is just "its not".

did you switch your stance now?

[Wizza]

did you switch your stance now?

Ops, I just mystyped. My bad.

[Natashaelle]

you trying to shut down information by not calling things what they are, is actually the elitism happening here.

That doesn't make much sense, particularly as I've not done anything of the sort -- what "information" have I "tried" to "shut down" exactly ?

what is not the most optimal is by definition sub-optimal.

The word "optimal" is in itself a value judgment, because its root meaning is "best". Even so, "sub-optimal" clearly has a negative connotation, and so using the term seeks to divide players and/or rank them from best to "useless".

It is also false to claim that all that is not "the most optimal" is "sub-optimal" -- not only generally, but not least in DDO because there is no one-dimensional measure of "best" to "worst", but characters exist in a highly complex network of interrelationships between various stages of development in character abilities.

I don't understand why using the term is "elitism".

This whole vocabulary is elitist, as it attempts to attribute to certain players some sort of "superiority" denied to others.

[Natashaelle]

Just curious -- when was the last time anyone else here acted as a healer on Live ?

Last time for me was Friday. I'd be curious to know when the last time was for those trying to lecture me about it.

[Wizza]

Just curious -- when was the last time anyone else here acted as a healer on Live ?

Last time for me was Friday. I'd be curious to know when the last time was for those trying to lecture me about it.

Live doesn't have a Reaper mode yet. Live is "everyone does their own things and finish quest", Reaper is going to play differently.

[Visty]

It's funny how the argument of "limiting self healing is not gonna bring teamwork" is just "its not".

well, considering the argument of "limiting self healing is gonna bring teamwork" is just "it is", what you deem to be funny there isnt really funny at all