Champion Changes Feedback

[Cocomajobo]

Agreed.

Also question:

Example:

Im on LE. I see a champion of the Plane of Light Bearer.

Light Bearer Mount Celestia - Heavenly & lawful true sight Unyielding Sovereignty at half health death block

Will he have:

1) TS, Unyleding Sovereignity, Deathblock all together
2) Only the last tier of buff, onlt Deathblock in this case
3) Random choice between the 3
4) Other

?

Sorry if its a dumb question, just trying to understand better.

If you see a champion it will have either:

- A small yellow crown indicating it is Tier 1
- A medium orange crown indicating it is Tier 2
- A large red crown indicating it is a Tier 3

Then, if you mouse over the champion or target it it will display it's title as one of the Champion types/themes listed above which will determine the buffs it has.

In the example you listed the "Light Bearer" Champ will have either:

Tier 1:
- Small yellow crown icon indicating it is tier 1
- Basic Champion Damage Buff
- True Sight
- Unyielding Sovereignty at half health
- Negative Vulnerability

OR

Tier 2:
- Medium orange crown icon indicating it is Tier 2
- Basic Champion Damage Buff
- True Sight
- Unyielding Sovereignty at half health
- Negative Vulnerability
- Death Block

[changelingamuck]

Something affects it, because my Rogue gets spotted all the time despite having max Hide/MS, items for each, and a pretty high Dex. Im all for Champs seeing invisible, but stealth really should always be an option.

That's due to the scaling formula for mobs' spot/listen scores being set too high alongside the recent attempt to fix aggro-ing issues. They've said that they're continuing to make adjustments.

[Jasparion]

That's due to the scaling formula for mobs' spot/listen scores being set too high alongside the recent attempt to fix aggro-ing issues.

Ah that is related to the Bluff and Assassinate issue which melee Rogue players have been talking about?

Cheers.

[Rys]

True Seeing has never affected stealthing characters. Personally, I'm happy to see invis-cheesing whittled away at in any way possible. Stealth relies upon investment in skills, gear, ability score/enhancements/whatever else. Invis-cheesing just requires a scroll.

If the invis would be the one aimed, it would be see invis. This is a displace nerf more than anything and an indirect nerf of clickies that they have been trying to kill for a while.

Thumbs up for the visual distinction though.

[Jasparion]

If the invis would be the one aimed, it would be see invis. This is a displace nerf more than anything and an indirect nerf of clickies that they have been trying to kill for a while.

Thumbs up for the visual distinction though.

Good point. Maybe a Dev can confirm that True Seeing is all about reducing the impact of Displacement, rather than restricting our ability to Invis through dungeons?

We know they are watching

[Wizza]

If you see a champion it will have either:

- A small yellow crown indicating it is Tier 1
- A medium orange crown indicating it is Tier 2
- A large red crown indicating it is a Tier 3

Then, if you mouse over the champion or target it it will display it's title as one of the Champion types/themes listed above which will determine the buffs it has.

In the example you listed the "Light Bearer" Champ will have either:

Tier 1:
- Small yellow crown icon indicating it is tier 1
- Basic Champion Damage Buff
- True Sight
- Unyielding Sovereignty at half health
- Negative Vulnerability

OR

Tier 2:
- Medium orange crown icon indicating it is Tier 2
- Basic Champion Damage Buff
- True Sight
- Unyielding Sovereignty at half health
- Negative Vulnerability
- Death Block

Why isn't Negative Vulnerability listed in the table?

And thank you. You should add PRR bypass to this. It's honestly disheartening that right now almost half of planes have TS in at least a Tier. Counting we haven't seen Tier 3, I expect more than 75% of the Champions to have True Sight. Don't like it.

If you dont want people to zerg invis, put See Invisibility instead of TS.

Also, where is stuff like Healing Amp debuff on hit? I think it would be cool to also add a -MP, - RP, -SP debuff on hit, a MRR bypass, PRR bypass.

[changelingamuck]

Good point. Maybe a Dev can confirm that True Seeing is all about reducing the impact of Displacement, rather than restricting our ability to Invis through dungeons?

It can be both.

Displacement is in an unfortunate position. It was supposed to provide a potent defensive benefit to arcane casters since they lacked defensive capabilities possessed by other classes (which is why it was changed to self-cast-only from being capable of also targeting allies).

The creation of displacement clickies was, IMO, the single worst decision regarding game balance in the history of DDO. Imagine if all of the mobs had displacement, characters didn't have true seeing, and character power had to be balanced around that. I can't blame them for handing out lots of True Seeing. Characters with extremely high PRR can have displacement whenever they like making it necessary to balance content against that. It's supposed to be for squishies. I'd prefer it if displacement clickies had never existed or at least if they were made exclusive, but I don't see that happening.

[CSQ]

9/20 have true seeing

This disables invis runs.
Does this affect sneaking toons?

Reaper already seems to be anti-stealth (given that Reaper Exp, whatever it's for, is only earned after killing monsters) so I think it's fair to say that this is probably intentional. While I think stealth is interesting in DDO, it does seem like if it lets you skip everything it might be against the spirit of Reaper.

At least you'd still get fancy named loot if you stealth, along with increased base experience.

I haven't had much chance to run on Lamannia, but in my only (1 skull, since I rolled a no past life toon with crappy gear) Reaper run I only hit one champion out of about 20 eligible monsters (assuming red name champs are fixed); is the rate really that low on 1 skull, or did I get lucky?

[Rys]

It can be both.

Displacement is in an unfortunate position. It was supposed to provide a potent defensive benefit to arcane casters since they lacked defensive capabilities possessed by other classes (which is why it was changed to self-cast-only from being capable of also targeting allies).

The creation of displacement clickies was, IMO, the single worst decision regarding game balance in the history of DDO. Imagine if all of the mobs had displacement, characters didn't have true seeing, and character power had to be balanced around that. I can't blame them for handing out lots of True Seeing. Characters with extremely high PRR can have displacement whenever they like making it necessary to balance content against that. It's supposed to be for squishies. I'd prefer it if displacement clickies had never existed or at least if they were made exclusive, but I don't see that happening.

Let's throw in some PRR bypass too then. To spice it up for the tanks a bit XD

[Jasparion]

It can be both.

Displacement is in an unfortunate position. It was supposed to provide a potent defensive benefit to arcane casters since they lacked defensive capabilities possessed by other classes (which is why it was changed to self-cast-only from being capable of also targeting allies).

The creation of displacement clickies was, IMO, the single worst decision regarding game balance in the history of DDO. Imagine if all of the mobs had displacement, characters didn't have true seeing, and character power had to be balanced around that. I can't blame them for handing out lots of True Seeing. Characters with extremely high PRR can have displacement whenever they like making it necessary to balance content against that. It's supposed to be for squishies. I'd prefer it if displacement clickies had never existed or at least if they were made exclusive, but I don't see that happening.

Im sure it all gets fixed with the Tier 3 abilities !

[janave]

With True Seeing being all over the place, hide scores and/or spot check frequency should be lowered. It actually makes stealth a fair bit harder with the lack of invisibility. I have no problem with basic invisibility being much less useful, but i think it would be fairer to include see "lesser see invisibility" which does not see improved invis.

Same for deathblock, it would be fairer to include one vs spells, and a different one vs assassinate, quivering palm, coup 'de grace ...etc.

True Seeing should be a rare buff.

[BigErkyKid]

Im sure it all gets fixed with the Tier 3 abilities !

Without testing (will do later today) I can already congratulate you on the themes. It looks pretty awesome. I am not sure though how I will be able to distinguish between the kind of champion. Or if certain mobs are more likely to become one type or the other.

But this might be me reading too quickly. Liking it very much so far, great job. I like how you try affect all kinds of characters with this. Need to think more to see if that goal is accomplished,and then try it out in lama later.

[Dragavon]

I am not sure though how I will be able to distinguish between the kind of champion. Or if certain mobs are more likely to become one type or the other.

But this might be me reading too quickly. Liking it very much so far, great job. I like how you try affect all kinds of characters with this. Need to think more to see if that goal is accomplished,and then try it out in lama later.

As far as I understood Cordovan, when you target a champion he will be called Champion of this/that in the focus orb.

[FuzzyDuck81]

My speculation is T3 buffs will include some more off the wall stuff like health regeneration (likely suppressed by certain damage types, like trolls with fire/acid or good damage for the devourer of dreams, hence the unspecified vulnerabilities) & access to particular special abilities (essentially racial SLAs) that they wouldn't have normally, including drawing from player class enhancement trees & even destinies - so eg. stoneguard might have earthgrab from the sorcerer tier 5 acid tree plus earthgrab guard, flame born might have a powerful flameshield on the level of the draconic destiny ability, etc.

[FranOhmsford]

So 4 have Deathblock at Tier 2 and 1 has it at TIER 1!

Devs this unfairly penalises certain builds! {Turn Undead, Slay Living, Destruction, Implosion - When will you stop dumping on Clerics?}.

IF it's easily recognisable ONE type of Champion with Deathblock is ok but 5? That means 25% of Champions will have Deathblock and that's way too high!


You're also expecting rather a lot for newbies and Casual players to have to memorise all this on top of everything else!

[FranOhmsford]

As far as I understood Cordovan, when you target a champion he will be called Champion of this/that in the focus orb.

Oh Dear Lord!

DDO is played at such a pace that targeting and examining is rarely an option except against Bosses!

[Elfishski]

Today's Lamannia brings a preview of a series of changes taking place to Champions in the game:

• The Champion system has been updated. Champion crowns will now designate whether the Champion is Tier 1, Tier 2, or Tier 3. Champion buffs now randomly pick between a set of template themes after the Outer and Inner Planes where they get their boost.
• Champions still do not appear on Normal, and will only be Tier 1 on Hard. Elite will have Tiers 1 and 2, while Reaper difficulty will have up to Tier 3.
• The global damage modifier for champions has been reduced to account for new abilities. This does not affect mini boss champions.

Tested on a carelessly made low level first life paladin vanguard with whatever I could quickly grab from the dojo and no guild buffs. 10 skulls reaper was way out of bounds solo at level (as it should be), but I really like these changes and the implementation on first impressions while playing on 1 skull.

Streamlining these into set combinations and showing the name over the champion when highlighted is great. The combinations are more logical (unless they're limbo, in which case randomness it is... I hope they can get confetti, as a side note), and it feels much better in terms of lore as well, which makes it more engaging in terms of the story of a quest. I did keep dying while I stopped paying attention to combat while trying to see what the tier 3 buffs of the really scary red glowing champions were, but over time I'll learn the combinations and be able to adapt on the fly without trying to examine individual buffs. That's neat, it rewards learning, it gives information on the champions, but it's not cluttering up the screen.

I got confused about what was a Tier 2 champion and what was a Tier 3 champion but I think I'll know the difference after a few more quests.

Tier 3 buffs I saw including things like fire absorb and fire damage over time for a Flame Born champion, and for a Mark of Chaos champ a very long list including vulnerable electric (resist all other elements) vulnerable pierce (resist bludgeon/slashing), true seeing, and a few others I didn't have time to read while he killed me and went back to sneaking. Mark of Law*: Dodge Bypass, Attack Guard Force, deals damage to the attacker. Another I forget was something like "I always strike true".


One thing I'd hope to adjust in terms of the crowns:
It's often true with the current champion crowns as well so it isn't new, but crowns for some short creatures in particular (e.g. wolves in Archer Point Defense) can be invisible or at least very well hidden... then the first you know it's a champion can be when they tear out your throat.

One thing I would guess could be adjusted based on first impressions:
As others have said with "proper" higher level quest testing, there is a lot of true seeing (which is fine, displacement is OP and still worth using for all the others that don't have it), deathblock (also fine, I think), and mind block (charm will be super fantastic in reaper, given that charmed enemies do full damage and lots of it, way more than players will at higher skull levels). Where I have doubts: other abilities like Attack Force Guard are liable to punish melees more, where it's really ranged that need to suffer the most, as melees have to deal with raw damage in the face. Possibility of adding or changing guards to be ranged reflection? Maybe other T3s I haven't seen will target ranged; I hope so.

*Bug with Mark of Law ability: "Champion: On-hit Force" has a "Do Not Use" icon.

[Mr_Helmet]

The on-hit damage guards are far too punitive to melees. Remove them or give the proc a timer to not be every hit.

Better yet, give them a timer ONLY for melee and have them trigger off every ranged attack and spell.

[Elfishski]

[*]The Champion system has been updated. Champion crowns will now designate whether the Champion is Tier 1, Tier 2, or Tier 3. Champion buffs now randomly pick between a set of template themes after the Outer and Inner Planes where they get their boost.

Didn't see this at all in the first few quests I tried, but running random level 4-6 quests (level 8 character) on 1-2 skull reaper to see what turns up, finding that quite often the template name (e.g. "Light Bearer") isn't displaying when the champion is selected. Bug reported the first one I saw like that but then encountered another 3-4 of them out of the next 6 champs I saw. Different templates each time.

[Kebtid]

Might as well add here, can you make the guard buff that some mobs get be affected by ranged and spell attacks as well?
Ty

Nothing really to negate shiradi ruin builds or tossers atm.

Only limits to melee and vaguely to dc casters /you can still instakill the thing that has mindblock not really a issue