This might get me laughed out of the forums, but..

[Daliena]

I'm starting to get mildly tired of dealing with undead, especially skeletons, as a pale master. No death spells, no cold (so no Polar Ray), no negative (so no Necrotic Ray).. What exactly should I use to deal with these things? Especially when they decide to be funny and come with evasion. I've tried chain lighting/DBF but they tend to save against it due to my trash evo DC's, and that's more or less left me with the very long cooldown of Undeath to Death, and Black Dragon Bolt for single-target (which is not stellarly effective at quickly killing things).

[Mr_Helmet]

I'm starting to get mildly tired of dealing with undead, especially skeletons, as a pale master. No death spells, no cold (so no Polar Ray), no negative (so no Necrotic Ray).. What exactly should I use to deal with these things? Especially when they decide to be funny and come with evasion. I've tried chain lighting/DBF but they tend to save against it due to my trash evo DC's, and that's more or less left me with the very long cooldown of Undeath to Death, and Black Dragon Bolt for single-target (which is not stellarly effective at quickly killing things).

What level we talking about?

[Daliena]

Epics. In heroic content it was at least reasonably feasible to just power through, but as the level counter went past the big two-oh things are starting to have so much HP there isn't a snowball's chance in Fernia that I can keep up blasting every single one with spell after spell after spell after spell and still make it through without maxing out my credit buying mnemonic potions.

[Jasparion]

Epics. In heroic content it was at least reasonably feasible to just power through, but as the level counter went past the big two-oh things are starting to have so much HP there isn't a snowball's chance in Fernia that I can keep up blasting every single one with spell after spell after spell after spell and still make it through without maxing out my credit buying mnemonic potions.

Surely you just Wall of Fire, Fireball, Delayed Blast Fireball, Meteor Swarm, or even Magic Missiles, Chain Missiles, etc. And there are Undead insta destroying spells arent there?

If they keep overrunning you, use Web before doing the above. But fire will destroy the webs.

[Daliena]

Surely you just Wall of Fire, Fireball, Delayed Blast Fireball, Meteor Swarm, or even Magic Missiles, Chain Missiles, etc. And there are Undead insta destroying spells arent there?

If they keep overrunning you, use Web before doing the above. But fire will destroy the webs.

Wall of Fire thankfully doesn't destroy webs, but it does some 100 or so damage per tick, and the initial one (and more if I run them through it again and again) gets a reflex save. Fireball, Delayed Blast Fireball and Meteor Swarm all have the same issue of reflex saves combined with ****** evocation DC's that I can't feasibly pump up right at this instant to get them to epic-viable levels, being on a first life wizard. It's complicated enough to bring my necro DC up to at least usually work on EH, and nuking any skeletal undead even on EN is a pain. At least zombies etcetera I can add Polar Ray to it which has some worthwhile results due to lacking a save. Tried the various missile spells, and while cheap to cast their damage is also on the low side which would take a whole bunch of castings to kill anything (I swear I must've cast a dozen force-chain-force-chain missiles spells in total between the two trying to kill a single skeleton archer out of a group in the first level of Thunderholme, all the while barely scratching the others). And unless I missed it, the only undead-destroying spell is Undeath to Death, which I mentioned. I happily use it, but it has a lengthy cooldown and some sort of target/HD limit (not sure which) that means that sometimes I'm left with stragglers to mop up, unlike a chain lighting or fireball that would hit everything in it's range.

[Pyed-Pyper]

Have you tried any of the necromancy cc spells, Command/Halt/Control Undead, or Undeath to Death?

Depending on difficulty level, your build, and which way the wind is blowing*, you might find success using these in combination with other spells. You will need heighten for all of them. The good news is they are necromancy spells so your DCs might be high enough 'naturally'.

Another option is Flesh to Stone, but being in a less popular school is problematic.

Try Halt Undead + an AoE spell or three. Always lead with Halt Undead then cast your damage spells, Wall of Fire, Acid Rain, Cloudkill, Sunburst etc.
Try Enlarge + Heighten + Undeath to Death if theres a crowd of stationary undead. The cool-down is long so be ready with Halt Undead.
Control Undead is Dominate Monster for undead. And like other charms in epics, they won't last long if at all. But if/when it does work, it makes life a little easier. The cool-down is long, too long IMO, so be careful about choosing a target and be ready with other spells.


* DC casting is an iffy proposition in this game, for various reasons.

[Jasparion]

Wall of Fire thankfully doesn't destroy webs, but it does some 100 or so damage per tick, and the initial one (and more if I run them through it again and again) gets a reflex save. Fireball, Delayed Blast Fireball and Meteor Swarm all have the same issue of reflex saves combined with ****** evocation DC's that I can't feasibly pump up right at this instant to get them to epic-viable levels, being on a first life wizard. It's complicated enough to bring my necro DC up to at least usually work on EH, and nuking any skeletal undead even on EN is a pain. At least zombies etcetera I can add Polar Ray to it which has some worthwhile results due to lacking a save. Tried the various missile spells, and while cheap to cast their damage is also on the low side which would take a whole bunch of castings to kill anything (I swear I must've cast a dozen force-chain-force-chain missiles spells in total between the two trying to kill a single skeleton archer out of a group in the first level of Thunderholme, all the while barely scratching the others). And unless I missed it, the only undead-destroying spell is Undeath to Death, which I mentioned. I happily use it, but it has a lengthy cooldown and some sort of target/HD limit (not sure which) that means that sometimes I'm left with stragglers to mop up, unlike a chain lighting or fireball that would hit everything in it's range.

As a first life consider running in groups for EH content and solo EN content. Plenty of quests still give a heap of XP, and the mobs should be much easier to deal with.

At Epic level, I would have thought Wall of Fire would tick for a fair bit more than that, even for a first life. Go to the AH and look for cheap Combustion of Fire Lore clubs/scepters and for Impulse of Kinetic Lore clubs/scepters (or if they are too expensive look for Combustion of Kinetic Lore and Impulse of Fire Lore) and also for Necro type scepters which will be useful for your self healing as well as damaging living mobs. You can also look for Dire rings which can be used for boosting your elemental spell damage. Or look for gear with Potentcy. Doesnt give as big a boost to damage as a specific element item, but will be helpful for all your spell types.

And check out items which will boost Evocation DCs which will reduce the chance of mobs saving. Or go for the more general 'all' DCs boosting items. You may want to look for Spell Pen if mobs often get a blue shield on them when you cast things like Wail (mobs get a DC save and a spell resist against some spells - generally the insta-kill or charm types). And dont forget an item to boost your Intelligence, as well

Web followed by Undeath to Death is a way to mass as many mobs together before you hit them - maximising your kills per spell points. Plus learning how to move around to group mobs (without getting hit too much) is an important skill.

Also look at the Heroic level enhancements you took. There should be quite a few in Arch Mage which can boost the damage of your elemental spells. Dont just put all your points in Pale Master.

I assume you are levelling in Magister for your Epic enhancements? Look for options there which are good for increasing all DCs - such as boosting Intelligence.

A first life PM will struggle in Elite content, should be reasonable in Hard content, but should destroy Normal content. It just takes a bit of time and planning.

[Daliena]

Have you tried any of the necromancy cc spells, Command/Halt/Control Undead, or Undeath to Death?

Depending on difficulty level, your build, and which way the wind is blowing*, you might find success using these in combination with other spells. You will need heighten for all of them. The good news is they are necromancy spells so your DCs might be high enough 'naturally'.

Another option is Flesh to Stone, but being in a less popular school is problematic.

Try Halt Undead + an AoE spell or three. Always lead with Halt Undead then cast your damage spells, Wall of Fire, Acid Rain, Cloudkill, Sunburst etc.
Try Enlarge + Heighten + Undeath to Death if theres a crowd of stationary undead. The cool-down is long so be ready with Halt Undead.
Control Undead is Dominate Monster for undead. And like other charms in epics, they won't last long if at all. But if/when it does work, it makes life a little easier. The cool-down is long, too long IMO, so be careful about choosing a target and be ready with other spells.


* DC casting is an iffy proposition in this game, for various reasons.

I have tried Undeath to Death, yes. It's very much my staple undead-hosing spell, but it has an unwelcomely long cooldown as you noticed yourself. I have the Halt Undead SLA from AM due to a necro focus, but problem is that it seems to immediately break on damage. If it was like Mass Hold Monster except for undead in that it -kept- them held and taking increased damage it'd be nice, but as it stands it's pretty much like fascinating Deadward Skelehands there. Good for relieving pressure, but doesn't do a lot to help kill them. And typically displacement + death aura + shroud of the arch lich temp hp will keep me alive unless the skeleton in question is a boss or there's just a TON of them all whacking me at once on higher difficulties.

I don't really trust controlled undead to do meaningful damage to eachother, especially if the skeletons aren't for some reason equipped with blunt damage due to their own racial DR keeping them from beating eachother up too well. It's not surviving encounters with them that's an issue, it's killing the blasted things in a remotely time/sp economical fashion.

As a first life consider running in groups for EH content and solo EN content. Plenty of quests still give a heap of XP, and the mobs should be much easier to deal with.

At Epic level, I would have thought Wall of Fire would tick for a fair bit more than that, even for a first life. Go to the AH and look for cheap Combustion of Fire Lore clubs/scepters and for Impulse of Kinetic Lore clubs/scepters (or if they are too expensive look for Combustion of Kinetic Lore and Impulse of Fire Lore) and also for Necro type scepters which will be useful for your self healing as well as damaging living mobs. You can also look for Dire rings which can be used for boosting your elemental spell damage. Or look for gear with Potentcy. Doesnt give as big a boost to damage as a specific element item, but will be helpful for all your spell types.

And check out items which will boost Evocation DCs which will reduce the chance of mobs saving. Or go for the more general 'all' DCs boosting items. You may want to look for Spell Pen if mobs often get a blue shield on them when you cast things like Wail (mobs get a DC save and a spell resist against some spells - generally the insta-kill or charm types). And dont forget an item to boost your Intelligence, as well

Web followed by Undeath to Death is a way to mass as many mobs together before you hit them - maximising your kills per spell points. Plus learning how to move around to group mobs (without getting hit too much) is an important skill.

Also look at the Heroic level enhancements you took. There should be quite a few in Arch Mage which can boost the damage of your elemental spells. Dont just put all your points in Pale Master.

I assume you are levelling in Magister for your Epic enhancements? Look for options there which are good for increasing all DCs - such as boosting Intelligence.

A first life PM will struggle in Elite content, should be reasonable in Hard content, but should destroy Normal content. It just takes a bit of time and planning.

That's what Wall of Fire did when I frustratedly went into Thunderholme again after dusting it off after a long period of disuse, with 284 fire spell power backing it. 120-ish, I believe it was. I do solo EN and group for EH, and avoid EE wherever I can because I'm perfectly aware of how weak I am there. Even EH on some of the newer quests makes it a coin toss, and that's being optimistic, if I can kill things with my death spells.

I have a necro 5 item, and overall DC 57 on my necro spells, with 52 int and 3 DC twisted in from Magister as I work on unlocking all the karma spheres and various destinies so far. 41 AP in PM, 39 in AM. Spellpowers run 255 acid, 279 cold, 318 electric, 284 fire, 255 force, 341 light (Nevermind that, it's just that the necro 5 item I have also decided to come with Radiance.), 290 negative, 222 positive, 238 repair and 198 sonic. Crit goes 17-25-21-17-25-11-25 acid-cold-electric-fire-force-light-negative.

I do mass mobs together for Undeath to Death as best as I can, but it has some manner of hidden target limit or the like I believe. That or I'm getting unlucky with enemies still saving despite the dang thing being heightened -and- emboldened (along with other DC boosts as noted above). Web is troublesome because I can cast it on the cheap for a weak DC of 34, or I can heighten + embolden it in return for bloating the SP cost from 14 to 56 right now.

Spell resist isn't too much of an issue outside of newer, level 30+ EH quests like Grim and Barett with hordes of abishai or the like, or on occasion when I end up rolling a 1 in lower level content. Having feats for +8 spell pen helps with that.

Nonetheless, while I appreciate the general suggestions, the problem here remains specifically skeleton mobs. Everything else I can either deal with or accept that I'm not strong enough due to the level of the content, but even on lower level content skeletons are always disproportionately tough to anything else present. All kinds of undead are less than a treat to fight, but when you slap on cold immunity and without any particular weakness to abuse to make up for it, my spell selection is chopped down so much it's not funny and I'm hoping I've missed something that would work well.

[Qhualor]

sorry but I got a laugh when I saw undead have reflex saves. that just sounds odd to me.

[Daliena]

sorry but I got a laugh when I saw undead have reflex saves. that just sounds odd to me.

Hell, I can swallow it with vampires, wraiths and that sort of thing. But you're telling me basic mindless skeletons and zombies are doing ninja flips to get out of the way of my fireballs (the skeletal archers in Thunderholme have EVASION for crying out loud!)? Nuh-uh. Nope. Not okay.

[Dalros]

It's been a long while since i play as a wizard (my favorite class) but since i cap x3 years ago haven't play one since then. So my advice might be dated, of course as mention by others grouping provides the most relief on the undead issues with you supplementing with cc and occasional undeath to death spell. Solo play wise, depending on race (i have to presume drow) Deep gnome/Gnome have options on their racial.

Possible routes:
1. Firewall and Acid Rain combo - For dealing with Skelly Archers, they will save initial tick but take subsequent damage for being inside the effect. (note unlike blade barrier they take damage as long as they are in the effect) Layer with Halt undead for extra damage tick, i know it breaks on damage but that damage is consider helpless and thus take extra damage.
2. Command/Control Undead - Yes they don't do much damage on each other but if you take control of the caster ones thats extra bit of added damage circumstantial yes but helps with being overwhelmed, another option is to use it as a way to bypass the fight, unless its been changed charmed mobs do not come after you if you are far away when they come out of it so charm and move to next area *i might be wrong on this due to aggro change*
3. Prismatic Spray and Ray is another option as a random instant kill ability 3 out of the 7 proc are quite nice

*side note another extreme method is to prepare some melee gear spend some AP in Harper for int hit/damage + Tenser and start whacking them it does save you some SP and using firewall and acid rain combo center on yourself yield some synergy but YMMV

[Pyed-Pyper]

Wiz is my favorite class to play (when DCs aren't fubar'd, and they often are) but I don't think it is a good choice for the typical new player or for a first life. I'm not trying to scare you away so much as trying to set reasonable expectations. Your DCs are too low for EE, maybe even for EH. The skele pet is nice during heroics but rapidly becomes useless in epics. You are probably better off reallocating those APs towards something more useful, such as intel in racial or harper trees. Remember that SLAs are modified by metamagics (for free!), so if you use the necro line in the AM tree, metamagic all of those with everything you have. The pansophic circlet will help with damage spells but you may end up having to swap gear between DC casting and DPS casting. Some other gear you might consider, if you don't have, festering mummy wraps (belt) green steel con-op (gear and weapon), Torc, and a green steel disruption weapon. Con-op will stack with one gear item and one weapon. You can melee vs undead pretty well with all of the above gear in lower epic levels. The closer to cap you get, the harder the mobs hit, and the less you want to get close to them.

If you run in a group and see another PM just crushing it, don't despair. That person probably has multiple PLs and is fully geared. It takes a lot of investment to make a DC caster work in this game.

[Pyed-Pyper]

Regarding the saves, I suspect (but have no evidence) that the saves are mislabeled. The mobs are getting some kind of internal save and thats what the game is calling it. What you see during combat often makes no sense.

[FranOhmsford]

OP My advice would simply be TR - Assuming you have the 20 tokens required to get your Heart.

1st Life Wizard is a major pain.

I wouldn't come back to Wizard either until I'd done at least 1 Warlock {You can do Epics, Build up your Destinies, Even go through Epic Past Lives on 2nd Life Lock with a Wizard Past Life - It's pretty much exactly what I've done on Lithya who also started out as a 1st Life Pale Master and got TRd at Lvl 20 into 2nd Life Lock}, 3 Sorc, 1 FavSoul and 1 Cleric life.

You don't need to go to 30 on your first life {unless of course the character is an Iconic}.


P.S. First Life your building up your destinies and Magister+Draconic aren't that great as you build them up.
Once those 2 are done trying to build up another destiny on a 1st Life PM would be Painful - But Locks synchronise with multiple destinies and can get by much easier even in totally useless destinies like say Grandmaster or Shadowdancer or LD.
If you want to get Destinies and maybe even some Epic Past Lives out of the way my advice would be 2nd Life Warlock {Take the Active Wizard Past Life Feat at Lvl 3}.

[JOTMON]

I'm starting to get mildly tired of dealing with undead, especially skeletons, as a pale master. No death spells, no cold (so no Polar Ray), no negative (so no Necrotic Ray).. What exactly should I use to deal with these things? Especially when they decide to be funny and come with evasion. I've tried chain lighting/DBF but they tend to save against it due to my trash evo DC's, and that's more or less left me with the very long cooldown of Undeath to Death, and Black Dragon Bolt for single-target (which is not stellarly effective at quickly killing things).

my typical undead destruction path..

Undeath to death
halt undead/firewall (or alternatively web/icestorm)

[Enoach]

Wizard gear much like melee should take a golf bag approach...

One of the biggest advantages a Wizard has is the ability to switch out spells to better met the mobs they are working against; Damage Type, Save targeting etc.

You want School DC Gear being able to switch out gear to get the best possible DC and Spell Penetration when needed as not all schools really need Spell Penetration (at least here in DDO) such as Evocation, Transmutation and Conjuration. Other schools benefit such as Necromancy, Enchantment and Illusion.

Next is Gear for Spell Power you will want gear that powers every element and lore if possible. If tight go with the potency and generic lore, this will not be as high as a specific type but does consolidate which is great for spells like Hell Ball which does multiple damage types.

----
Learn to switch gear to fit your current need. Not just before you quest but while you are progressing. The key is to understand there really isn't a Perfect Best for All Situation Gear setup. Learn to shift.
----
As for Undead...

Think of Halt undead more along the lines of Hypnotism. It stops undead so you can deal with it later. Such as give yourself time for Undeath To Death to come off timer.

Combinations that work well together...

Web + AoE (Wall of Fire, Acid Fog, Acid Rain, Ice Storm, Incendiary Cloud)
Sleet Storm + AoE (Acid Fog, Acid Rain, Ice Storm, Incendiary Cloud)

Web+ Acid Blast is also good as it does not take away the web and both are Conjuration Spells.

Now there are places where Undead are immune to Fire so Acid is more likely to work. The goal is to stop/slow down undead as they traverse the AoE. When you cast your damage spell make sure you are using both the best Spell Power and Schools save item - Create a weapon set if this is a combination of two single handed items to speed the transition or if other gear segment your hot bar to make it easy to switch based on your activity.

The way I use Halt Undead is to segment off a group of Undead that will be ready for Undeath to Death to come off timer. Try targeting the Rear of the Group when working in a party to minimize them breaking due to damage.

[Blastyswa]

I'm starting to get mildly tired of dealing with undead, especially skeletons, as a pale master. No death spells, no cold (so no Polar Ray), no negative (so no Necrotic Ray).. What exactly should I use to deal with these things? Especially when they decide to be funny and come with evasion. I've tried chain lighting/DBF but they tend to save against it due to my trash evo DC's, and that's more or less left me with the very long cooldown of Undeath to Death, and Black Dragon Bolt for single-target (which is not stellarly effective at quickly killing things).

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

That's an Arcane Spell Damage table my guild uses; If you're looking for highest damage output at once spells, just dropping some AoE overtimes and chucking meteor swarms and delayed blast fireballs works pretty well.

[slarden]

Skeleton archers generally don't follow you far and generally don't generate dungeon alert. Use energy burst, wall of fire and unmeta'd chain missles on skeletons that aren't archers and ignore the archers entirely if possible (just move on without killing the skeleton archers).

Basically group up, aoe, kite stragglers through wall of fire or acid aoe while using unmeta'd chain missle.

For illusion you generally want the illusion line in AM to get the phantasmal killer SLA. As a necromancer you can easily take the evocation line for the chain missle, magic missle slas which are really useful for epic leveling. Then you can use unmeta'd chain missle, magic missle, force missle + meta'd chain missle, magic missle slas. Even enemies with evasion get no save against those.

metamagic is key for not running out of spell points. If you have 400 spellpower you are killing enemies 60% as fast for a fraction of the sp cost by turning metamagic off on non-slas. For example chain missle only costs 15 spell points without metamagic (before discounts). The fully meta'd chain missle sla is only 3 spell points.

Also, a 2 favored soul splash lets you take just reward which gives you temp hp frequently with magic missle, chain missle, force missles or fire/light spells which includes firewall, meteor swarm, etc. This enhancement combined with low cost force spells (unmeta'd spells and slas) extends your spell point pool significantly. For etr this is a bigger benefit than anything you get from being pure wizard. Although it's most popular for shiradi builds, I used that for numerous etr builds even when out of shiradi.

[Wh070aa]

Circle of undeath to death. Disintegrate.

Magic missile and Shiradi spam.

Delayed blast Fireball and meteorite strike. Firewall. Ice storm. Lightning ball.

YOU ARE WIZARD CHANGE OUT YOUR SPELLS FOR SOMETHING USEFUL.

[Mr_Helmet]

Epics.

Undeath to death and nukes.

90% of the time my pure wizard's in Shriadi (still have a 98 necro DC ) so a few Meteor Swarms and a Hellball or two will clean them up. If SP efficiency is needed web, Firewall, and incendiary cloud can slow-roast them to perfection.