Is ninja spy a total fail or am I doing it wrong?

[BigErkyKid]

No, you're correct. That's why there is a thread asking to do a pass on ninja.
.

I am sorry, but Sev is on the record for saying they don't plan more changes to monk in schedule. So I guess that's it for ninjas.
It is not a style that is particularly appealing to me, but I am sorry for you folks.

[Arlathen]

I am sorry, but Sev is on the record for saying they don't plan more changes to monk in schedule. So I guess that's it for ninjas.
It is not a style that is particularly appealing to me, but I am sorry for you folks.

Really??!...

Linky?

[BigErkyKid]

Really??!...

Linky?

Always listening. But no, there are no further changes to Monk planned for this patch.

It wasn't Sev, my bad, it was Steelstar.

[Arlathen]

It wasn't Sev, my bad, it was Steelstar.

Ok, maybe not for this patch.

Commence Operation: MemeSpy!

[chrysahor]

Ok, maybe not for this patch.

Commence Operation: MemeSpy!

I wanted to be a kensei like you, but then I took an arrow in the knee and became a ninja...

[BigErkyKid]

I wanted to be a kensei like you, but then I took an arrow in the knee and became a ninja...

isn't it a bit sad that no one is surprised at a PrE being pretty broken?

[boredman]

isn't it a bit sad that no one is surprised at a PrE being pretty broken?

To be fair, ninja spy seems at least the easiest entry for wai monks into the hardest content since it offers ranged damage option with shurikens and the sneak damage is very handy at end content, also with the monk run speed.
While the meele damage does not seem the best it seems to be close to other monk trees in single target damage at least, and while lacking meele aoe damage or tactics in theory it seems a trade off since having more ranged damage option.
Note that you can take ranged feats instead whirlwind attack chain for some ranged option while being primary meele or just go full focused on ranged or go with whirlwind attack and stunning fist for trash and shortswords/kamas for bosses if just meele, etc.

So I would not say the tree is a totally fail although could get some few buffs/adjusts, mostly on the meele part.
(Also not sure but some builds that aren't affected by weapons crit profile like some wolfs or trees could benefit from the tree with the extra doublestrike and sneak damage)
( I think a better Pre tree comparison for ninja spy could be deepwood stalker instead assasin, since is also a hybrid specialized meele/ranged tree, while assasin is more meele and dps oriented, the main problem of that is that there are also other trees more focused on ranged dmg like mechanic, AA archer or kensei, so ninja gets in a middle of nowhere, good at both but not best)

[chrysahor]

To be fair, ninja spy seems at least the easiest entry for wai monks into the hardest content since it offers ranged damage option with shurikens and the sneak damage is very handy at end content, also with the monk run speed.
While the meele damage does not seem the best it seems to be close to other monk trees in single target damage at least, and while lacking meele aoe damage or tactics in theory it seems a trade off since having more ranged damage option.
Note that you can take ranged feats instead whirlwind attack chain for some ranged option while being primary meele or just go full focused on ranged or go with whirlwind attack and stunning fist for trash and shortswords/kamas for bosses if just meele, etc.

So I would not say the tree is a totally fail although could get some few buffs/adjusts, mostly on the meele part.
(Also not sure but some builds that aren't affected by weapons crit profile like some wolfs or trees could benefit from the tree with the extra doublestrike and sneak damage)
( I think a better Pre tree comparison for ninja spy could be deepwood stalker instead assasin, since is also a hybrid specialized meele/ranged tree, while assasin is more meele and dps oriented, the main problem of that is that there are also other trees more focused on ranged dmg like mechanic, AA archer or kensei, so ninja gets in a middle of nowhere, good at both but not best)

Depends what you're calling WAI. For me shintao is currently the easiest entry.

You can sneak attack as a ninja, but how do you get sneak attack? Dummy is unreliable (not getting aggro or getting destroyed too easily) and on a 3m CD. Flashbag could be good if it's now working with stun (I'm not currently spec ninja so I cannot test, but description didn't get upgraded). With stun the dc should be workable...but again it's on a 30 sec CD...can't be your bread and butter. And I'm not even talking about ki if you need to use it often.
Check closely when you see a monk20 shuri, he'll be AA based, no SA based.

Melee damages are also on the same level really. You have a few buff like dummy (again) or shadow double...but what do you do on CD? I'm not saying ninja should be able to spam abilities like there is no tomorrow. But they ain't sturdy and can't heal well.

So yeah using group tactics, using deception items...all of those are workaround. That's how people wanting to play this PrE are holding on atm.
It's perfectly ok for ninja's not to be GOO ES warlocks, but with all the restrictions...you'd better be able to dispatch your targets of choice (poison/SA vulnerables) better than anyone else, and that's not the case.

I think ppl are missing how shintao really got all the love, even if "unexpected, but *maybe* working as intended now". Before, handwraps were the special snowflakes. Now they are blunt weapons like any other, but still benefits from unarmed damages. In short, things in ED that didn't work before with handwraps now work. Like Celestial Champion from divine crusader or pulverizer from LD and ofc dex to dmg if they take core 1/2 from ninja.
Shintao get easy access to 100% offhand and they get full attribute for offhand. With on top smth like +7W between monk and PRE.

Check Vish's Phenix build for a good idea of what's possible.

Past level 6 ninja doesn't get something really good. T5 are poor, lvl 12 and 18 are unexeciting. The comparison to DWS instead of assassin has also been made, but really it ain't the same thing. For starting rangers are getting feats for both styles as a class feature. DWS emphasises more on the ranged part, but they still get MP/RP and DSt/SSh. 6D SA from core (modified by MP/RP), with unlimited SA range.
I don't see how we can say ninja can use ranged or melee as backup, there is no synergy, you need to swap clumsily for a poor effect.

Now if the intended way is both melee and ranged, and be different than ranger: clearly make ninja SWF, but allow her to keep shuri in offhand. You throw shuri until you are in melee, and then once at melee range it would use your melee weapon and shuri would proc as a shield bash. Boost of dps, working against all targets, fun hit&run gameplay.

[boredman]

Depends what you're calling WAI. For me shintao is currently the easiest entry.

You can sneak attack as a ninja, but how do you get sneak attack? Dummy is unreliable (not getting aggro or getting destroyed too easily) and on a 3m CD. Flashbag could be good if it's now working with stun (I'm not currently spec ninja so I cannot test, but description didn't get upgraded). With stun the dc should be workable...but again it's on a 30 sec CD...can't be your bread and butter. And I'm not even talking about ki if you need to use it often.
Check closely when you see a monk20 shuri, he'll be AA based, no SA based.

Melee damages are also on the same level really. You have a few buff like dummy (again) or shadow double...but what do you do on CD? I'm not saying ninja should be able to spam abilities like there is no tomorrow. But they ain't sturdy and can't heal well.

So yeah using group tactics, using deception items...all of those are workaround. That's how people wanting to play this PrE are holding on atm.
It's perfectly ok for ninja's not to be GOO ES warlocks, but with all the restrictions...you'd better be able to dispatch your targets of choice (poison/SA vulnerables) better than anyone else, and that's not the case.

I think ppl are missing how shintao really got all the love, even if "unexpected, but *maybe* working as intended now". Before, handwraps were the special snowflakes. Now they are blunt weapons like any other, but still benefits from unarmed damages. In short, things in ED that didn't work before with handwraps now work. Like Celestial Champion from divine crusader or pulverizer from LD and ofc dex to dmg if they take core 1/2 from ninja.
Shintao get easy access to 100% offhand and they get full attribute for offhand. With on top smth like +7W between monk and PRE.

Check Vish's Phenix build for a good idea of what's possible.

Past level 6 ninja doesn't get something really good. T5 are poor, lvl 12 and 18 are unexeciting. The comparison to DWS instead of assassin has also been made, but really it ain't the same thing. For starting rangers are getting feats for both styles as a class feature. DWS emphasises more on the ranged part, but they still get MP/RP and DSt/SSh. 6D SA from core (modified by MP/RP), with unlimited SA range.
I don't see how we can say ninja can use ranged or melee as backup, there is no synergy, you need to swap clumsily for a poor effect.

Now if the intended way is both melee and ranged, and be different than ranger: clearly make ninja SWF, but allow her to keep shuri in offhand. You throw shuri until you are in melee, and then once at melee range it would use your melee weapon and shuri would proc as a shield bash. Boost of dps, working against all targets, fun hit&run gameplay.

Is very simple as bringing a meele dps build into LE raids, then bring a ranged dps build and make your own conclusions. I think most ppl will find ranged combat much easier, even vish say in his post how easy is ninja spy with shuriken even when he was just new to a shuriken build and didn't play it to its full potential.

About sneak damage you forget a good ability, unbalancing strikes, that could be used even if you are ranged, just swaping to meele for a moment to proc it when is worth it, then go back to pew, pew. Also don't forget some weapon abilities like radiance (or other cc abilities that make sa vulnerable), twists like grim precision and gear like armor piercing for fortification bypass, shadowmastery or nerve venom from epic destinies (even blitz meele power boosts your sa) plus improved deception as you said. On parties sa damage would be much easier to get with all the cc abilities or aggro that other ppl can bring. (and don't forget grazing hits and prr/dr enemies, which does not affect sa dmg but does affect meele power and base dmg).

About meele and ranged combat, the tree give good things to both and you can take most if not all the relevant meele and ranged feats so you can fit both styles if want, obviously you have to be commited into a main style that should be meele if you are investing in both, otherwise is not worth to invest in meele (unless maybe for leveling), if you are full ranged (because what would be the point of meeleing if you are doing better all the time from ranged). But for example someone who wants to focus on meele and invest to do most of the damage at meele, can have some ranged damage as back up for the times where ranged playstyle is more useful, like crystals damage or some LE raid bosses or distant enemies. (while rangers get manyshot, monks get ten k stars).

[adrian69]

You can sneak attack as a ninja, but how do you get sneak attack?

All the Fort Bypass you can get
Strange Tidings (improved deception)
Legendary Animated Belt (seems to stack)
Quality SA Slavers Item
Max Hide Skill+Item+Scrolls
SoEP

I do around 300-400 SA most of the time on my kensei with run for growth. Saw some Kenseis in videos keeping up almost 600. Sure Ninjas can edge over that.