Thoughts on a Ravenloft Expansion

[GoldyGopher]

As Severlin has already announced in general terms that DDO is getting a Expansion in Late 2017 centered on Ravenloft Campaign setting, I'd like to express my thoughts.

Unless you can do something to knock my socks off Ravenloft is not really the expansion I want to see. It's not that Ravenloft isn't an entertaining campaign setting, well actually they first two modules were great, the campaign setting was just pretty average. It's the fact the first two modules were so revolutionary at the time they were released it was kind of mind blowing. It will be really difficulty to compete not only with original source material, but the memories of the collective player base are virtually impossible to live up to.
I would much rather you expanded an existing campaign setting, either Eberron or Forgotten Realms, that are in DDO. For the forumites who may not know Greyhawk has not been licensed as of yet, even though we have some content that originally was located in that setting in PnP.

You have different avenues to choose from when it comes to price and expectation.
Daybreak Games and SOE have released 23 expansions for Everquest costing between $30 and $40 each. Each Expansion typically includes 3 to 4 new zones and revamps 3 to 4 older zones. In comparison to DDO a Zone would be an adventure pack.
Blizzard has released six expansions for World of Warcraft costing between $50 and $75 each. Each Expansion has six to twelve zones, a level cap increase, new class/race, new “items” and game play adjustments. Again a zone would be comparable to Adventure pack in DDO.
Turbine released five expansions for Lord of the Rings Online costing between $40 and $60 each. Each Expansion has a large landscape comparable to five or six adventure packs in DDO, along with new game play options (mounted combat, skirmishes), level cap increase and the continuation of the LOTR storyline.

So what would I like out of a DDO expansion? It is going to depend on the cost.
If you are going to offer me Two Adventure Packs, make a change to Game System, add a class, and some other minor changes or updates that is very comparable to Shadowfell Conspiracy, well that worth $30 to $40 to me. Not the $90 I paid for the Collector’s Edition and the Legendary Upgrade Offer.
If you are going to offer Three Adventure Packs, a Challenge Pack, a raid, add a class, add a Game System, and other changes, that is very comparable to Menace of the Underdark that worth the $30 to $80 I paid for it.
Guess which expansion knocked my socks off?

The rumor mill, from people who could be in the know, is suggesting; three Adventure Packs, a couple of races, a raid, and some other minor changes. That to me could be worth $50 to $75. I would like to see options for players, from a basic edition of $30, an Epic Edition of $50, and a Legendary Edition of $75.
To me this rumor indicates a public instance for the Village of Bavoria, with Wilderness Adventure Zones in the the Svalich Woods, the Ivlis Marsh and the Tser River (AKA the Ivlish River), with Castle Ravenloft as the setting for a Raid. I say that knowing the rumors have not directly suggested those zones but they fit the rumor.

I would like to see the Ravenloft Campaign setting use more of open landscape approach to the game. Not that I want an open landscape game, but rather I want the zones to use Dynamic Layers allowing us to have private instances but no loading screens (unless we change instances). This is what we supposed to get with MOTU but it got dropped along the way.

One of the the things that has really helped the revival of Everquest to me is the emphasis upon reworking/revising older Zones to bring them up to "modern" standards. I really think that is something the SSG has to do with DDO. Too many "adventure packs" whether free or available for purchase have fallen to the level of almost unplayable as the game has grown. I feel including a renewal of a couple of these in expansion pack will bring a lot more excitement to the fan base in really increase sales.

Just my two CP worth, so SSG go create something to knock my socks off.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

great post mate

[Chimmy]

In my opinion honestly there is no better dnd MMO on the market currently in terms of scope and depth, that alone has the potential to draw "new" and old players alike forever so long as dnd retains its sub-cultural popularity and it continues to provide us with new and interesting things.

The distinction I want to make there is "new and interesting" doesn't at all mean new dungeons to me specifically, renewing older dungeons, updating mechanics and adding new paths and options to existing dungeons gives old things a "new and interesting" feel to them, enough to keep players wanting to retry dungeons and try new things, rebalances can also do this for me as I can spend weeks investigating just meta mechanic changes personally.

So I think I really agree with the sentiment of the OP, I think almost every player, old and new, first and foremost want quality of life updates and real maintenance to existing systems to take priority over more new gear and adventures, at least for right now, as there is LOADS of GREAT content already, and more and more of it is being diminished by a lack of focus on QOL and a continued focus on new adventures (and reaper).

[Nestroy]

I think that a Ravenloft(tm) Expansion of DDO would be great. Mostly because of the synergies already existing between the tone of Eberron and the tone of Ravenloft. Ravenloft is Gothic Horror. The Eberron setting provides quite a lot of Steampunk elements, but as much as has been done on DDO there are quite a lot of Gothic Horror style elements already in place. Just think of the whole epic Orchard setting. Think about Necro I - IV. Or think about the ToD raid. Furthermore, most Ravenloft monsters already can be found in DDO.

So from a developers perspective, introducing Ravenloft style quests into DDO is not that big a problem. In truth, it would need just a bunch of individual end bosses, perhaps a few new wall skins and a cool story. This could be even done on a small budget as of DDO.

I would really look forward for such an expansion.

[Chimmy]

I think that a Ravenloft(tm) Expansion of DDO would be great.

Don't get me wrong I also think this (maybe replace the word would with could, but yeah agreed).

And I don't think they should stop working on new dungeons entirely as that would be crazy, but priorities-wise, for the right now, QOL should be on the top of the list (and underlined with red marker, and some exclamation points wouldn't hurt).

[Sam-u-r-eye]

QOL should be on the top of the list (and underlined with red marker, and some exclamation points wouldn't hurt).

agreed

[Chai]

Ravenloft is not just Gothic horror however. This is only the case if you play it straight template, and even then, it not just confine-able to that one genre.

Each EQ expansion had a heck of a lot more than what was described. Many had new spells, New entire AA ability lines, New classes/races, New crafting recipes, New quests which could keep players busy for a month or two alone, Upgrades for the old epic item quests, and the zones by expansion, is far greater than 3-4: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/zone.html?mode=bymap

One of the the things that has really helped the revival of Everquest to me is the emphasis upon reworking/revising older Zones to bring them up to "modern" standards. I really think that is something the SSG has to do with DDO. Too many "adventure packs" whether free or available for purchase have fallen to the level of almost unplayable as the game has grown. I feel including a renewal of a couple of these in expansion pack will bring a lot more excitement to the fan base in really increase sales.

^^^THIS^^^

Been preaching that one for a while now. Content balance is the key to keeping the immersion going. The advocacy on the forums to keep challenge levels of content at 2012 levels to speed up the XP treadmill is not resulting in a net positive retention of players. The EQ1 revival is a great template for showing how this can be accomplished.

[GoldyGopher]

Ravenloft is not just Gothic horror however. This is only the case if you play it straight template, and even then, it not just confine-able to that one genre.

Agreed, if it was just gothic horror it could easily fit into either Eberron or Forgotten Realms, heck it could also fit into the Shadowfell.

Each EQ expansion had a heck of a lot more than what was described. Many had new spells, New entire AA ability lines, New classes/races, New crafting recipes, New quests which could keep players busy for a month or two alone, Upgrades for the old epic item quests, and the zones by expansion, is far greater than 3-4: http://everquest.allakhazam.com/db/zone.html?mode=bymap

The problem when comparing apples and oranges is you have to rely on a core example. With EQ you get three to four new oranges, you replace a couple of older oranges in your basket and get a grapefruit (or banana or a lime or a lemon or ) that grapefruit is a an extra bonus but it is the six to eight oranges is what you are "paying for".
I hope that helps describe what I am trying to say.

Been preaching that one for a while now. Content balance is the key to keeping the immersion going. The advocacy on the forums to keep challenge levels of content at 2012 levels to speed up the XP treadmill is not resulting in a net positive retention of players. The EQ1 revival is a great template for showing how this can be accomplished.

I too have been saying that for a very long time, along with rationalizing XP in quests between level 2 and 10, but that is another story.

[Hafeal]

Nice to you active again GG. I thought for sure I would see you pop up with the SSG takeover.

---

I don't know much about fruit analogies. Given DDO's history, I expect a paid expansion to be closer to MoTU than Shadowfell.

Now, DDO could do some really cool things IN ADDITION to content that hey have never done - like add new spells and skills to the game, while revamping old ones. Of course, in doing this, it would be a necessity to re-visit older content to accommodate such changes. Well, in fact, older content should be revisited to account for the new classes and enhancement passes.

SO, I hope a paid expansion will be the $60-$75 range, is going to bring something for everyone:

1. at least 1 class;
2. finish 3rd enhancement trees
3. add 7-9 quests with at least 1 Raid
4. a revamp of 2 game areas (a low and a mid/high - Catacombs and Threnal?)
5. bring at least 1 new explorer zone
6. bring something to the game such as new spells, skills
7. A new quality of life improvement to get us away from 2006 such as a new character sheet (show me EVERYTHING that stacks and where it is coming from) or a new quest log.

My wish list would also include a new starter area fro new players ...

With the devs they have and some old coming back, I think there is a lot doable.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

With the devs they have and some old coming back, I think there is a lot doable.

I think we all agree that we're excited.
Yarrr

[Chimmy]

SO, I hope a paid expansion will be the $60-$75 range, is going to bring something for everyone:

1. at least 1 class;
2. finish 3rd enhancement trees
3. add 7-9 quests with at least 1 Raid
4. a revamp of 2 game areas (a low and a mid/high - Catacombs and Threnal?)
5. bring at least 1 new explorer zone
6. bring something to the game such as new spells, skills
7. A new quality of life improvement to get us away from 2006 such as a new character sheet (show me EVERYTHING that stacks and where it is coming from) or a new quest log.

My wish list would also include a new starter area fro new players ...

With the devs they have and some old coming back, I think there is a lot doable.

Sounds ambitious but sure I agree

Some of the things on that list should definitely not be a forced to pay to access sort of deal (enhancements, skills, spells, UI updates etc) but as part of that kind of patch sure.

While we are making wishlists, if you would allow me to edit the list a little

1. Any and all kinds of general quality of life improvements
2. at least 1 new class or race or enhancement tree or epic destiny line
3. finish 3rd enhancement trees
4. add 2-4 quests with maybe 1 Raid and/or explorer zone
5. a revamp of 2-4 existing game areas/quest chains, depending size
6. bring something else to expand the existing game options such as new spells, skills, weapons
7. UI updates

But still, it seems so greedy lol, I would be happy with 1,2,6 and 7, or even just 1 and 7 getting some serious love.

[Robbenklopper]

As nice as Ravenloft may be (or not), I do not understand why they open a new Tin of meat while other delicious tins are still open. I would prefer to eat the rest to the ground and expand what we already have to give it a deeper meaning (if possible at all).

[SerPounce]

I'm stoked about a new expansion, and Ravenloft sounds great. DDO has a lot of good stuff going for it, but D&D nostalgia is huge part of the draw for many players. Expanding into a new world that a lot of people have fond memories of is a good idea. Dragonlance would be cool also, but Ravenloft has more potential for the kind of grimdark fantasy that's popular these days.

My only real complaint about the previous expansions is that one didn't have a raid, and the other was released with a broken raid, that wasn't much fun even when fixed, and had limited static loot. Having a fun, ready to go raid, with interesting loot should be a priority for an expansion.

Edit: also I'm pretty OK with the pricing of MoTU and Shadowfell. You could get all the content for $50 and $35 respectively IIRC. Those were reasonable prices for the content IMO. The fact that you could spend more to get "bonus stuff" like panther/owlbear/cosmetics doesn't change the value of the basic packs.

[Aelonwy]

I'd be happy for a paid expansion to come with this:

1. Any and all kinds of general quality of life improvements
2. at least 1 new class or race or epic destiny line
3. add 5-7 quests with 1 Raid and at least 1 wilderness zone
4. new monster types, preferably at least 3 new monster races
5. bring something else to expand the existing game options such as new spells, skills, weapons
6. UI updates

Although, only 2 & 3 and maybe 4 should truly be the paid for part, the rest should be things that come simultaneously to keep everyone engaged and happy.

I'd also approve a Special Edition expansion that came with a couple cosmetics, a couple new creature companions, maybe a new permanent hireling/creature... honestly at this point I'd like a Lv 10 + healer-type archon (no dv's, maybe just cure serious, cure disease, cure poison, remove curse) so she wouldn't replace needing a real healer for raises but could replace needing stacks of potions or breakable wands. Ooooh 4 inventory spots condensed into one at the cost of a party slot.... bet someone still hollers that's too OP. ;P

[Impaqt]

Did he actually say that Ravenloft was going to be an Expansion? I missed that if it was said.

[SerPounce]

Did he actually say that Ravenloft was going to be an Expansion? I missed that if it was said.

Nothing has been confirmed regarding either Ravenloft or another expansion AFAIK. They've said there might be Ravenloft, and there might be another expansion. They may or not be combined or even happen.

[Chai]

Agreed, if it was just gothic horror it could easily fit into either Eberron or Forgotten Realms, heck it could also fit into the Shadowfell.

No need to shoehorn it anywhere, as Ravenloft, even the verbatim version, can be used in any campaign. Eberron kind of has its own story anyhow.

The problem when comparing apples and oranges is you have to rely on a core example. With EQ you get three to four new oranges, you replace a couple of older oranges in your basket and get a grapefruit (or banana or a lime or a lemon or ) that grapefruit is a an extra bonus but it is the six to eight oranges is what you are "paying for".
I hope that helps describe what I am trying to say.

Its an apples to apples comparison. Things like new spells, races, classes, zones, new AA's etc....fall into "more apples" - Example: you already had AA's but now you have another entire new tree of AA's.

Another fun fact on EQ, is some of that stuff wasn't announced previous to the purchase. I remember the second AA list increase, and people weren't expecting it. They also put in more crafting recipes without saying anything in release notes, and people found them by.....actually questing.

The Coldain Prayer Shawl quest was another similar addition. People stumbled onto it by hailing PCs, and it turned out to be a best in slot item for 3 more expansions.

I too have been saying that for a very long time, along with rationalizing XP in quests between level 2 and 10, but that is another story.

Hopefully they listen.

[GoldyGopher]

Did he actually say that Ravenloft was going to be an Expansion? I missed that if it was said.

When you put everything that has been said individually on the social media sites (Facebook, twitter, google+) and the other publications together it's pretty clear, but not 100% confirmed. IE there is enough deny-ability built into their statements.

[Qhualor]

Did he actually say that Ravenloft was going to be an Expansion? I missed that if it was said.

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ight=ravenloft

Looking beyond 2016, we know many of you have been hearing the rumors and teases about Ravenloft, so let's talk Strahd. We're 100% interested in bringing Ravenloft to DDO, and are working through the process to make it happen. We don't have an exact time frame in mind, although our current plan has it coming to DDO sometime towards the end of 2017. We can't wait to bring one of the most popular and classic adventures in Dungeons & Dragons history to the game.

[Gremmlynn]

And I don't think they should stop working on new dungeons entirely as that would be crazy, but priorities-wise, for the right now, QOL should be on the top of the list (and underlined with red marker, and some exclamation points wouldn't hurt).

I feel what should be top priority for them is really a matter of what their cash flow situation is, which we really don't know.

What I mean is, if they can get by and keep the player base interested while polishing the existing game that would be great. But if financial realities dictate they concentrate on new saleable product to keep the lights on, that's what we'll see.

Frankly, I feel their likely best plan would to concentrate on expanding the player base if that's feasible for a game at this stage in it's "life". A bigger customer base would give them much more flexibility in whatever they decide to do with the game.