So, what are the current Handwrap builds?

[Anoregon]

I haven't played any DDO in probably have a year or so and am thinking about leveling up a new monk since the big pass happened. I have a char ready to TR for a 36 point build, but actual past life feats and tomes will be pretty minimal. I have +2 dex used, but nothing for wisdom. I also don't have gnome or deep gnome access.

I don't necessarily need a full step-by-step, level-by-level breakdown, but an idea of what races and stat distribution would be helpful. I'm also not completely attached to pure monk.

[Euthorcize]

I am very interested as well if anyone wants to share?

[unbongwah]

The basics of unarmed / Shintao builds haven't changed too much. Although Turbine did finally enable DEX to unarmed dmg thru the Ninja cores; it applies to any ki weapon inc. handwraps. So you can choose between DEX or STR as your primary dmg stat, which helps if you're stat-constrained (i.e., first-lifer without tomes). Monk DCs are WIS-based, so I still prefer to make my monk builds WIS-primary, particularly a Shintao since so many of your CC / stunning effects are tied to it (i.e., Stunning Blow, Jade Strike, etc.).

The core feats are still basically the same:

• Heroic: TWF x3 (req's base DEX 17), Imp Crit Blunt, Power Atk and/or Precision
• Epic / ED: Overwhelming Crit, Imp Martial Arts, PTWF

That leaves you 5-6 heroic and 2 epic feat slots, plus your last couple of ED and Legendary feat slots. So first question mark is: what do you want to do with them? You could invest in shuriken-centric feats for some ranged DPS like my drow Ninja. Or you could invest in AoE atks, since Shintao doesn't get anything nearly as nice as Dance of Death: i.e., Power Atk/Cleave/GC chain or Whirlwind Atk & its pre-reqs. [Remember that PA req's base STR 13 and CE req's base INT 13, so plan your stats accordingly).

Enhancements: I would start with 41 Shintao (capstone) / 11 Ninja (Shadow Veil) / 11 Henshin (+30 Melee Power) leaving 17 APs free for other things. E.g., on a human you could do 1 AP human (Dmg Boost) and the rest into Ninja for No Mercy (+30% helpless dmg).

[BigErkyKid]

The basics for a wrap user, IMO:

- TWF chain + IC blunt
- Whirlwind chain: dodge + spring + combat expertise + whirlwind attack

This is for your AoE damage, but combat expertise also pushes your AC (I am at AC >220 in LD) and your pRR while in LD (+20 PRR).

- Completionist / toughness

In epics, the usual. I pick vorpal strike (for slash bypass) + overwhelming critical + martial arts + ptwf.

I am going full WIS, with Dex to damage.

Enhancements

Lots of shintao (to capstone) + 11 Ninja (shadow veil) + 11 henshin (melee power) + Know the angles.

Know the angles is way more DPS than anything else you could choose (including 10 MP).

For me this is the optimal set up for a WIS based monk. I find that the AC keeps me up very well in most content and with healing ki I can heal through most encounters. DPS is behind the top dogs, but competitive.

The utility of monk shines in places with tougher encounters that have signature mobs. For instance, I do great in legendary HoX.

But if you want a super duper raid soloing toon, you got to go to the exploit builds. That's a different thing altogether and maybe someone helps you with some tree abomination or the like.

[HastyPudding]

The basics for a wrap user, IMO:

- TWF chain + IC blunt
- Whirlwind chain: dodge + spring + combat expertise + whirlwind attack

This is for your AoE damage, but combat expertise also pushes your AC (I am at AC >220 in LD) and your pRR while in LD (+20 PRR).

- Completionist / toughness

In epics, the usual. I pick vorpal strike (for slash bypass) + overwhelming critical + martial arts + ptwf.

I am going full WIS, with Dex to damage.

Enhancements

Lots of shintao (to capstone) + 11 Ninja (shadow veil) + 11 henshin (melee power) + Know the angles.

Know the angles is way more DPS than anything else you could choose (including 10 MP).

For me this is the optimal set up for a WIS based monk. I find that the AC keeps me up very well in most content and with healing ki I can heal through most encounters. DPS is behind the top dogs, but competitive.

The utility of monk shines in places with tougher encounters that have signature mobs. For instance, I do great in legendary HoX.

But if you want a super duper raid soloing toon, you got to go to the exploit builds. That's a different thing altogether and maybe someone helps you with some tree abomination or the like.

A lot of people are on the fence about power attack, nowadays, but remember that it affects EVERY hit, and monks get A LOT of hits. The damage isn't so much on a THF or even many TWF builds, but monks can make good use of it due to their unique attack patterns while unarmed.

I would label Know the Angles as more of an advanced enhancement to obtain. It's very, very hard to justify 8 AP for it when monks are already severely tight on AP. For the majority of monks, it's very hard to justify 8 AP for a few points of damage or a few stun DC's.

[leesun]

does ninja training now work with wraps? I may need to lr...

[HastyPudding]

does ninja training now work with wraps? I may need to lr...

Yes. Ninja Spy allows you to use dex for attack/damage with any weapon, so long as you're centered. It would make some interesting fighter kensei multiclass builds, but I wouldn't trust it for anything other than monk weapons until we get some hard confirmation for it. I can confirm that it works with handwraps, though.

[leesun]

Yes. Ninja Spy allows you to use dex for attack/damage with any weapon, so long as you're centered. It would make some interesting fighter kensei multiclass builds, but I wouldn't trust it for anything other than monk weapons until we get some hard confirmation for it. I can confirm that it works with handwraps, though.

seeing as kensei means sword saint, i wonder how a monk/fighter would work out.

I also wonder if armor and weapon types are going to be expanded to include more and/or outright add banded, splint mail, brigandine, katana, spear, flail, etc.
^-and if they will revamp armor appearances. I dislike having a starter character with a chain shirt, that visually doesn't have any chain mail, but I fear I'm getting off topic now.

now that I know wraps work for dex to damage, I am conflicted over whether or not I should revamp my sun stance wrap monk. going dex to damage instead of str would mean 1 less stat to worry about balancing, but on the other hand the crit multi from sun stance is nice

[BigErkyKid]

A lot of people are on the fence about power attack, nowadays, but remember that it affects EVERY hit, and monks get A LOT of hits. The damage isn't so much on a THF or even many TWF builds, but monks can make good use of it due to their unique attack patterns while unarmed.

I would label Know the Angles as more of an advanced enhancement to obtain. It's very, very hard to justify 8 AP for it when monks are already severely tight on AP. For the majority of monks, it's very hard to justify 8 AP for a few points of damage or a few stun DC's.

I agree that know the angles is for more advanced players that have an int swap item. That said, for anyone with sufficient gear and Pls, I d recommend the kta + ca way.

[HastyPudding]

I agree that know the angles is for more advanced players that have an int swap item. That said, for anyone with sufficient gear and Pls, I d recommend the kta + ca way.

So what's your opinion on power attack? I've been debating on using it, as it would make stats so much easier to handle for a wisdom/dex build, but it works very well for monks. My dilemma in the build I plan on making is I can either have the monk past life feat (more raw damage) or power attack (more raw damage), not both, as it doesn't fit in with the build.

[BigErkyKid]

So what's your opinion on power attack? I've been debating on using it, as it would make stats so much easier to handle for a wisdom/dex build, but it works very well for monks. My dilemma in the build I plan on making is I can either have the monk past life feat (more raw damage) or power attack (more raw damage), not both, as it doesn't fit in with the build.

Mind sharing your feats? I couldn't fit either. As for the PL monk, it is a step up, which I think translates into +0.5W. This is 0.5 of a 1d6, so 3.5/2 damage. Even if it was a full W, it would be 3.5 damage. I guess the only reason to do that would be to avoid the penalty from power attack / have another stance active.

I think the consensus is that power attack is usually (i.e. most situations where it would matter anyway) dominated by precision in end game. There are maths somewhere, but I ignored it since currently I am not using either.

[HastyPudding]

Mind sharing your feats? I couldn't fit either. As for the PL monk, it is a step up, which I think translates into +0.5W. This is 0.5 of a 1d6, so 3.5/2 damage. Even if it was a full W, it would be 3.5 damage. I guess the only reason to do that would be to avoid the penalty from power attack / have another stance active.

I think the consensus is that power attack is usually (i.e. most situations where it would matter anyway) dominated by precision in end game. There are maths somewhere, but I ignored it since currently I am not using either.

Feats:
TWF
I-TWF
G-TWF
IC: Bludgeon
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Combat Expertise
Whirlwind Attack

Feats in question:
Power Attack /or/ Precision /or/ Monk feat

Fitting power attack in alongside combat expertise and being able to get it at a level that doesn't push I-TWF and G-TWF into epic levels is the issue. I have it down where I can get both, but requires the level 4 ability score purchase to be intelligence (to make CE on time). Tomes are irrelevant, as certain feats must be taken before higher levels while others must be taken when you can get the BAB (which, I think, is silly for monks to have a lower BAB since they're supposed to be very accurate). Dropping wisdom to 16 or 17 would make it work easily, but I have the best gear I can find, and it would end up an odd wisdom amount by level 30, and besides of which, the build is all about high wisdom/DC's.

Dropping power attack frees up adding points into strength, which can be placed into intelligence (to get CE at a low enough level without wasting a level up on it) along with more base dexterity or constitution. But, is power attack worth it? I've heard mostly good things about it, for monk, but would precision or the flat bonus damage from the past life feat be worth the change? Would the impact on damage be noticeable without power attack?

[boredman]

13 rogue levels for tons of sneak die, 6 ranger for DoD and 4 more sneak die, 1 monk for unarmed animation, fighting in LD.

But no unbalancing strikes for a sneak dmg build.

How about a Fighter 12/ Monk 6/ 2x, the Handpesh, using handwraps with stunning fist and whirlwind attck for trash and Khopesh for bosses.

Human 1x rogue (12ftr/7monk) variant for traps and max damage( extra feat), 34 ap kensei (heavy blades), 3 human, 11 henshin, 11 ninja spy, 7 harper (kta 1 min for powersurge coord), 14 shintao, have to twist sacred ground +consencration and cocoon for self heal.
or
Bladeforged 2 paladin variant for self heal with reconstruct and free 1 or 3 twists slots and saves at the cost of jade strike from shintao, 32 kensei, 11 bladeforged, 11 henshin, 11 ninja, 7 harper, 8 shintao.

feats: Prof khopesh, twf, combat expertise, dodge, mobility, stunning fist, spring attack, whirlwind attack, itwf, gtwf, weapon focus slash, ic slash, master of forms, ic bludgeon, weapon specialization, greater weapon focus (if human, no room if bf), tactical mastery, grandmaster of forms, lvl 21 overwhelming, lvl 24 precision, lvl 27 epic reflex or epic dr, lvl 29 dire charge, lvl 30 scion of ethereal/arborea/astral, tactical combatant.

stats: dex>wis>con>int(for kta just swap int item)

[Maelodic]

Feats:
TWF
I-TWF
G-TWF
IC: Bludgeon
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Combat Expertise
Whirlwind Attack

Feats in question:
Power Attack /or/ Precision /or/ Monk feat

Fitting power attack in alongside combat expertise and being able to get it at a level that doesn't push I-TWF and G-TWF into epic levels is the issue. I have it down where I can get both, but requires the level 4 ability score purchase to be intelligence (to make CE on time). Tomes are irrelevant, as certain feats must be taken before higher levels while others must be taken when you can get the BAB (which, I think, is silly for monks to have a lower BAB since they're supposed to be very accurate). Dropping wisdom to 16 or 17 would make it work easily, but I have the best gear I can find, and it would end up an odd wisdom amount by level 30, and besides of which, the build is all about high wisdom/DC's.

Dropping power attack frees up adding points into strength, which can be placed into intelligence (to get CE at a low enough level without wasting a level up on it) along with more base dexterity or constitution. But, is power attack worth it? I've heard mostly good things about it, for monk, but would precision or the flat bonus damage from the past life feat be worth the change? Would the impact on damage be noticeable without power attack?

Power attack is much better at lower levels than higher levels. Especially now that we have better crit profiles (and since we get some SA from NiS) I'd take precision and pretty much sit in it.

[BigErkyKid]

Feats:
TWF
I-TWF
G-TWF
IC: Bludgeon
Dodge
Mobility
Spring Attack
Combat Expertise
Whirlwind Attack

Feats in question:
Power Attack /or/ Precision /or/ Monk feat

Fitting power attack in alongside combat expertise and being able to get it at a level that doesn't push I-TWF and G-TWF into epic levels is the issue. I have it down where I can get both, but requires the level 4 ability score purchase to be intelligence (to make CE on time). Tomes are irrelevant, as certain feats must be taken before higher levels while others must be taken when you can get the BAB (which, I think, is silly for monks to have a lower BAB since they're supposed to be very accurate). Dropping wisdom to 16 or 17 would make it work easily, but I have the best gear I can find, and it would end up an odd wisdom amount by level 30, and besides of which, the build is all about high wisdom/DC's.

Dropping power attack frees up adding points into strength, which can be placed into intelligence (to get CE at a low enough level without wasting a level up on it) along with more base dexterity or constitution. But, is power attack worth it? I've heard mostly good things about it, for monk, but would precision or the flat bonus damage from the past life feat be worth the change? Would the impact on damage be noticeable without power attack?

This is good I think, same set up as me. I checked and I actually took precision, but I hardly ever use it. This is because combat expertise is too good to pass on for me in most situations.

There is math out there proving that in high level precision dominates power attack even in 0 fort situations. Forum search failed me, but it seemed solid st the time.

So to sum it up, I would take precision. If someone is tanking for you it can help. I d rate the pl second and power attack third.

[leesun]

@BigErkyKid or HastyPudding:

how would you balance the dex and wisdom? all levelups in dex, all wisdom selected from trees? also earlier in the thread you mentioned you're in LD. does pulverize finally work with wraps?

[HastyPudding]

This is good I think, same set up as me. I checked and I actually took precision, but I hardly ever use it. This is because combat expertise is too good to pass on for me in most situations.

There is math out there proving that in high level precision dominates power attack even in 0 fort situations. Forum search failed me, but it seemed solid st the time.

So to sum it up, I would take precision. If someone is tanking for you it can help. I d rate the pl second and power attack third.

Heh, I figured I would just get a base strength to avoid stat/weight issues and go with precision. I also forgot to add stunning fist to that feat list, but I'm sure you assumed it, anyway, since it's a wisdom build.

Funny thing is, with this build, I reach 50% dodge, and often tank LE slavers bosses using ki shout when doing guild runs. The only difference with this build is combat expertise and whirlwind attack (which was formerly just toughness and the monk past life feat).

[BigErkyKid]

Heh, I figured I would just get a base strength to avoid stat/weight issues and go with precision. I also forgot to add stunning fist to that feat list, but I'm sure you assumed it, anyway, since it's a wisdom build.

Funny thing is, with this build, I reach 50% dodge, and often tank LE slavers bosses using ki shout when doing guild runs. The only difference with this build is combat expertise and whirlwind attack (which was formerly just toughness and the monk past life feat).

Yup, took stunning fist too.

BTW, the new aggro mechanic has completely destroyed my ability to solo reliably lE tempest. Ugh

[HastyPudding]

@BigErkyKid or HastyPudding:

how would you balance the dex and wisdom? all levelups in dex, all wisdom selected from trees? also earlier in the thread you mentioned you're in LD. does pulverize finally work with wraps?

If you're going for a DC build, wisdom should be your primary focus, with at least 16-18 starting wisdom and all level ups into it. Keep in mind, in order to get the improved martial arts and vorpal strikes feats in epics you need 21 and 23 base wisdom. You can easily reach 40 ~ 60 dexterity with proper gear optimization, keeping in mind that unarmed monks are DPS not DAMAGE: their damage potential comes from their attack speed, doublestrike, and offhand attacks and not their base damage.

Yup, took stunning fist too.

BTW, the new aggro mechanic has completely destroyed my ability to solo reliably lE tempest. Ugh

I don't usually solo much in epics unless it's a few quests like a daily LoD, ID, or something like that: simple, short quests for quick exp. I have, however, stopped playing my assassin entirely because trying to play stealth with this new aggro is beyond stupid.

[boredman]

One would never need to use unbalancing strikes. It has a save. One would rotate between DoD stunning fist and DoD exposing strike. At 6 seconds cool down each, you would more or less always get sneak attack damage, and most of the time you would also get helpless damage, AoE of course. It would AoE CC and destroy things so fast it would be a blur as it chews through the game, and due to also having assassin's trick would chew through more or less the entire game.

Plus the DC is better for stunning fist, since it is based on character level, while unbalancing strikes is based on monk levels, so on a splash stunning fist wins hands down. Plus stunning fist shares gear with dire charge.

I haven't tested DoD with handwraps though to see if it still works now that handwraps are weapons.

TWFx3, Completionist, Precision, PL:SoS, improved stancex3, EmpH in heroics. Nimbleness and water stance combined will give some gnarly dodge. Won't be able to fit IC:B in until 24.

Well, 4/6 sec of exposing strike is not 100% sa time and you can't stun rednames for example, also unbalancing strikes is reflex save instead stunning fist that is fortitude save, so it can be a little bit lower and complements against those enemies with very high fortitude save, so i think it could still be useful for the most part if well geared and wis based with a higher monk splash.

I also don't know what would be your damage stat since dont get dex to damage with handwraps with just 1 monk lvl (unless assasin or tempest/deepwood dex to damage is working with handwraps?) or are you using int to dmg with harper?
The extra sa damage from 13 rogue seems cool but i think you are giving up some potential good stuff from 6 monk like: 20 meele power from henshin, 0.5w from unarmed strike, shadow veil (25% incorporeal), iron skin (20 prr), unbalancing strikes, jade strikes (maybe fists of iron and other monk ki strikes that may work with dod?), 5% run speed, some ac, saves, dodge, and for example instead improved sneak attack feat you could take whirlwind attack for more aoe dmg since you get 3 more feats with 6 monk lvl (monk lvl 2, lvl 6 and free adept of forms), then could drop emph for combat expertise and at lvl 21 or 27 or 30 could get whirlwind attack instead.
That with a 8 rogue/6 ranger/6 monk splash for example.