U33 p2: A review of animal forms and some suggestions

[BigErkyKid]

Hi,

This is intended to be a relatively brief review of playing a druid to cap in animal form. The build is a 20 druid STR based, and it has ~80% maxxed gear (don't have the fire peaks shield, nor a slavers set bonus). I can provide more detailed feedback if it is requested, but I felt that this should be more responsive rather than me writing an encyclopedia.


Overview

Wolf form
The wolf has a decent single target damage (almost competitive with high DPS classes), and the burst single target damage is good. However, the burst damage has an extremely long cool down (300 seconds vs 90 seconds thousand cuts).

The AOE damage is very bad, since cleaves are bad given the subpar critical profile, and alpha strike has a 12 seconds cool down.

The defenses are more problematic, since there is no innate source of PRR/MRR. The HP potential is comparable to that of a ranger. However, high healing capacity compensates for part of it in regular content. This becomes more of a problem in extreme challenge situations.

The innate abilities are all very bad. The main problems are very low DCs, long cool downs, and extreme focus on single target. They lack damage scaling too. A bunch of them relate to summons, which are well known to be useless.

Bear form
Single target is abysmal due to bad crit profile (even worse than wolf) and very low attack speed (the attack animation contributes to it).

Multi target is equally bad. Whatever advantage it has over wolf by the higher W base (1d12 vs 1d10), is lost through the bad crit profile.

Defenses are not that much better than in wolf, and overall the

The innate abilities suffer from most of what makes wolf abilities bad, but in addition cool downs are even worse here.

Recommendations:

Animal for abilities

- Cool down reduction: Most tactical abilities only work against trash, and trash tends to come in huge packs. In order for them to be a worthwhile investment they need to be spammable.
- Damage scaling: In heroics, +2W can be noticeable, but in epics its a bucket in the sea. The damage component needs to be scaled up.
- DC scaling: "10+class or character level+ ability+tactics bonuses" has become the new standard. This would already help a lot. However, animal forms can only use STR to damage, which limits the extent to which they can reach the high FORT saves. More than giving them WIS to damage, I'd scale them either with STR (why would wisdom affect the trip of a wolf?), or a larger scaling factor.

Spells while in animal form:

Please keep 2.5 cool down: and remove the t5 ability that reduces this. Super heals / bad damage is a boring toon to play. Being a druid gives melee druids a huge bonus in heals, which limits the DPS they should be given. A good compromise would be either keeping the long cool down, or giving a -W penalty to that ability.
WIS to damage: In my opinion, this could potentially unbalance animal forms. Keep them STR based.

Damage progression
This needs to be tested thoroughly, since there is some degree of uncertainty around the base damage of animal form ATM. This might have to do with the changes to monk.

- Base damage W: need scaling, a la monk. There is no need to add a huge amount (~3W seems more than enough).
- Crit profile: giving an excessively big crit profile could be bad, since the DPS (wolf) is not that bad. A ~17-20/x3 would suffice, IMO.

Wolf vs bear

There needs to be a design decision. Wolf could be single target sneak attack, bear could be AoE cleave like. This could be simply achieved by giving bear cleave like attacks, together with a substantially better +W progression. At the moment bear is plainly useless.

Technical information:

What works with it
Please find more information in this thread: HERE

Combat styles
SWF
TWF
Shield mastery

Off hand - main had
Headmans chop
Enhancement of weapon
Weapon effects
Reinforced fists

W and ability damage
Weapon +W do not carry over, however I find that ability damage seems to be scaled weirdly. All in all, a fully blitzed regular hit averages 285, which is consistent with higher W . I obtain almost the same damage (tested against ship dummy) as I would expect with simple x1 ability scaling and progression in W of +(1+4.5+0.25)*5.5. Toolkits are not very helpful for this.

Build comparisons (wolf to other classes) are done with a simple formula:

DPS = Base damage * Melee power * Crit multiplier

This is a very accurate approximation, even though for simplicity I haven't counted in seeker effects right now.

[elvesunited]

One aspect you have not mentioned in the Wolf / Bear difference in Nature's Warrior Enhancement

Essence of the Shrike: Striking a blow focuses your mind and body. When you critically hit an enemy while in any wolf form, you gain [10/20] temporary spell points for 8 seconds.
Passive (permanent): +5/+10 Positive Spellpower

With the attack speed of the wolf form and a crit range of 18-20 this goes off a lot. 20 sp can keep the wolf casting wolf form spells and minor healing spells almost indefinitely.

Essence of the Turtle: Your enemy's blows give you the determination to keep fighting. When an enemy hits you while in any bear form, there is a 5% chance that you gain will gain [10/20] temporary spell points for 8 seconds.
Passive (permanent): +5/+10 Positive Spellpower

The bear form version isn't even remotely in the same league. In order to match the frequency of which wolf gets its temporary spell points I'd suggest raising it to 100% chance of temporary spell points if the bear takes damage.

Reinforced fists

I tested this extensively after reincarnating my wolf warrior. It has neglible effect if any. I saw no change in damage.

[burlicconi]

Druid animal spells are major fail, because they are worthless even on heroic. Note that druid in animal forms mostly invest in STR, not WIS.


Snowslide (DC 19 + WIS mod) - WIS is secondary for melee druids, so this spells is not efficient as it should be. Main benefit is only to quick move from one place to another.

Unstoppable - at lvl 15 it is not usable as it is, in epic it is more debuff than boost.

Howl of Terror - sounds nice, but spell DC is low, because of WIS and it is enchantment, no priority neither for melee or caster druids.

Jaws of Winter - DC is joke, it is WIS based.

Tremor - probably nice when you get it, but is obsolete quickly. It is WIS based and it is Innate Attack, so no spell DC boost.

Cold Breath - I'll remove lvl cap here, since damage is not good good here even for pure druids it is just about 200 cold damage and almost all enemies make saves against it, so it is just half of damage.


My suggestion here would be to all of these spells change to be Innate Attack spell school. I would also put Innate Attack spell DC boost together with http://ddowiki.com/page/Natural_Fighting.
Also, every Natural Fighting should add +3 melee power at least.





Druid in animal form needs very big revision, both in terms of spell change and enhancement adjustment. Melee druids are feat-starved- usually picks shield mastery (2 feats), Natural Fighting (3 feats), Augment summon if you want to boost your pet, because you can have decent help from it if it is properly trained and equipped. If you choose heavy armor, that's it for melee druids. No spell DC boost, no additional melee power, no dedicated defense boost for animal form. So, natural fighting should be balances properly.



Also, enhancement tree is split in two lines- one for wolf and one for bear. So, you lose your adaptability when switching between forms.:
Essence of the Shrike / Essence of the Turtle
Shifting Rake/ Aggravate

So, you lose major benefits when you switch animal form. Better way is to put all benefits in one line, and which benefit will be active depends of your form.



You don't have source of PPR and MRR for both of you and your pet/summons. Third tree should focus on this, so you can have decent army you can heal. It is funny that warlocks have excellent tree (displacement, melee power boost, PPR, dodge bonuses) for his summons and druids, which have pets, don't have even 10% of that boosts.


Also, only thing that bear gets is +30 PPR, +4 STR and CON, comparing to much, much greater DPS from wolf, which also has decent boost in SP from essence of shrike. So, wolf can spam mass lesser restoration all the time w/o SP cost, can have greater DPS and better heal support than bears. Bears are slow, bad DPS and can not intimidate opponents, have less SP.

Update bears core benefits, in terms of %melee attack speed, both PPR and MRR and add ability to wear heavy plate.
Heavy and medium armor should be treated as light armor while in animal form because it is more natural that way, so animals can get boost for dodge.

Also, some boost with [W] dice should be added in every core for animal form.

[Lonnbeimnech]

I don't like this whole 'animal form melee druid'/ 'elemental form caster druid' thing. The class is designed to be versatile melee/caster/healer hybrid, but the enhancements are designed to to pigeon hole you into specialization that cuts one of those out, and then further cuts out half again.

You can't cast water elemental spells when you're a fire elemental and vice verse. You get penalized in 3/4ths of the elements when in elemental form. The enhancements make it so you keep switching from specialization in fire to specialization in water. So you either need to keep changing form and equipment or just deal with being gimp half the time. This would be like playing a kensai and having your weapon specialization switch every 5 min to a random weapon type.

The animal form spells don't work because they are in some non existent spell school and aren't combat tactics either. And you are spending AP on stuff that you can't use unless you want to keep switching from tank mode gear layout and bear form, to dps mode gear layout and wolf form.

And god forbid you want to make a fire elemental melee to make use of Anger of the Noonday Sun/ Body of the Sun/Fires of Purity. There's not much in Natures warrior that you can use.

It's just a messy jumble of stuff that doesn't work together.

[burlicconi]

I don't like this whole 'animal form melee druid'/ 'elemental form caster druid' thing. The class is designed to be versatile melee/caster/healer hybrid, but the enhancements are designed to to pigeon hole you into specialization that cuts one of those out, and then further cuts out half again.

You can't cast water elemental spells when you're a fire elemental and vice verse. You get penalized in 3/4ths of the elements when in elemental form. The enhancements make it so you keep switching from specialization in fire to specialization in water. So you either need to keep changing form and equipment or just deal with being gimp half the time. This would be like playing a kensai and having your weapon specialization switch every 5 min to a random weapon type.

The animal form spells don't work because they are in some non existent spell school and aren't combat tactics either. And you are spending AP on stuff that you can't use unless you want to keep switching from tank mode gear layout and bear form, to dps mode gear layout and wolf form.

And god forbid you want to make a fire elemental melee to make use of Anger of the Noonday Sun/ Body of the Sun/Fires of Purity. There's not much in Natures warrior that you can use.

It's just a messy jumble of stuff that doesn't work together.

Exactly- current state of the game forces you to make choice- either be wolf, bear or elemental caster, you can't be good in them all.

And "messy jumble of stuff that doesn't work together" is probably the most accurate description. Druid is my favourite class and I rarely spend AP in both trees, which is fail in design...

[Smokewolf]

1) Bear and Wolf enhancement trees need to be split to allow for more specialization between the two forms. Wolf Melee and Stealth, with Bear Tank and spank.

2) Allow for other stats to work with damage & to-hit. (Intel / Dex / Con)

3) Pass the weapon crit multipliers and base damage thru if higher then that of the base animal forms.

4) Canneth Crafted Orbs.... enough said.

5) Remove animal form combat abilities that rely heavily on DC's that are unlikely to be used as the main functional stat. If not, at least allow the highest player stat to function for the DC check.

6) Modify animal form attacks that use spell points, to either remove or reduce the cost. (CD only would be preferred)

7) Add TWF feats as part of wolf form and SWF feats as part of bear form. Then code it to prevent anti-requisits from bleeding over. This would allow wolves to use two weapons and bears to sword and board.

[elvesunited]

1) Bear and Wolf enhancement trees need to be split to allow for more specialization between the two forms. Wolf Melee and Stealth, with Bear Tank and spank.

2) Allow for other stats to work with damage & to-hit. (Intel / Dex / Con)

3) Pass the weapon crit multipliers and base damage thru if higher then that of the base animal forms.

4) Canneth Crafted Orbs.... enough said.

5) Remove animal form combat abilities that rely heavily on DC's that are unlikely to be used as the main functional stat. If not, at least allow the highest player stat to function for the DC check.

6) Modify animal form attacks that use spell points, to either remove or reduce the cost. (CD only would be preferred)

7) Add TWF feats as part of wolf form and SWF feats as part of bear form. Then code it to prevent anti-requisits from bleeding over. This would allow wolves to use two weapons and bears to sword and board.

As a tower shield ( non-metal ones exist ) wielding wolf with shield mastery and improved shield mastery I wouldn't want to pigeon-holed into some sort of rogue-style wolf. ( nor would I want to be a bear ) Any changes done should allow the greatest variety of wolf builds. If you want to be a stealthy two weapon wolf, go for it. If you want a heavy armor, tanky wolf, go for it.

I don't think passing the crit and base damage is workable. Yes animal forms need ways to improve their +W values. But ...... If you pass the full damage then the wolf gets the full damage of the weapon combined with wolf speed and they'll crush all other classes at DPS.

[BigErkyKid]

One aspect you have not mentioned in the Wolf / Bear difference in Nature's Warrior Enhancement

With the attack speed of the wolf form and a crit range of 18-20 this goes off a lot. 20 sp can keep the wolf casting wolf form spells and minor healing spells almost indefinitely.

I fully agree.

Druid animal spells are major fail, because they are worthless even on heroic. Note that druid in animal forms mostly invest in STR, not WIS.

...
Also, some boost with [W] dice should be added in every core for animal form.

My thoughts exactly.

I don't like this whole 'animal form melee druid'/ 'elemental form caster druid' thing. The class is designed to be versatile melee/caster/healer hybrid, but the enhancements are designed to to pigeon hole you into specialization that cuts one of those out, and then further cuts out half again.

Pretty much. That was what appealed to me. Otherwise, at least make it a tactical melee through a lot of spell-like abilities. At the moment it is king of auto attack.

I don't think passing the crit and base damage is workable. Yes animal forms need ways to improve their +W values. But ...... If you pass the full damage then the wolf gets the full damage of the weapon combined with wolf speed and they'll crush all other classes at DPS.

I agree that there should be caution. With the innate attack speed they could easily become king of DPS. That's why I said that keeping the 2.5 cool down might be necessary. Otherwise, uber heals + uber DPS is a bad combination.

Great discussion so far guys, thanks! We managed to score a revision of henshin, maybe we can get some attention here too!

[Smokewolf]

As a tower shield ( non-metal ones exist ) wielding wolf with shield mastery and improved shield mastery I wouldn't want to pigeon-holed into some sort of rogue-style wolf. ( nor would I want to be a bear ) Any changes done should allow the greatest variety of wolf builds. If you want to be a stealthy two weapon wolf, go for it. If you want a heavy armor, tanky wolf, go for it.

I don't think passing the crit and base damage is workable. Yes animal forms need ways to improve their +W values. But ...... If you pass the full damage then the wolf gets the full damage of the weapon combined with wolf speed and they'll crush all other classes at DPS.

Sorry but wolf and bear forms need to specialize otherwise having effective skill tress will be impossible. Besides, no other class in DDO is able to be the Jack-of-all-trades, why should druids be any different?

[Lonnbeimnech]

Sorry but wolf and bear forms need to specialize otherwise having effective skill tress will be impossible. Besides, no other class in DDO is able to be the Jack-of-all-trades, why should druids be any different?

...because that would give them a reason to exist, the fact that they are different than other classes.

[elvesunited]

Sorry but wolf and bear forms need to specialize otherwise having effective skill tress will be impossible. Besides, no other class in DDO is able to be the Jack-of-all-trades, why should druids be any different?

But I do specialize my wolf build. Just not in that direction of a rogue.

My druid is a strength maxed melee character with self-heal capabilities. Similar to a Paladin.

No ranged capability. No even remotely effective DC casting. My feats are all fighter style feats with exception of Quicken.
I multi in 4 levels of fighter to give enough defense ( Stalwart Defender ) to hold his own, but he still lags behind the paladin.
But the healing is better, the movement speed is better, and the DPS is comparable ( that's including the small boost from sneak attack damage )

This character is rather 2 note, melee and healing rather than a jack of all trades. Most my characters have at least two things they are good at. And really if we were to roll call the wolf builds, I suspect most of them fall into a similar boat. They're melee attackers ( almost all strength based ) with varying degrees of offense and defense. some are pure druids. Some are tempests. Some single weapon users. Some are even centered monks.

[Smokewolf]

But I do specialize my wolf build. Just not in that direction of a rogue.

My druid is a strength maxed melee character with self-heal capabilities. Similar to a Paladin.

No ranged capability. No even remotely effective DC casting. My feats are all fighter style feats with exception of Quicken.
I multi in 4 levels of fighter to give enough defense ( Stalwart Defender ) to hold his own, but he still lags behind the paladin.
But the healing is better, the movement speed is better, and the DPS is comparable ( that's including the small boost from sneak attack damage )

This character is rather 2 note, melee and healing rather than a jack of all trades. Most my characters have at least two things they are good at. And really if we were to roll call the wolf builds, I suspect most of them fall into a similar boat. They're melee attackers ( almost all strength based ) with varying degrees of offense and defense. some are pure druids. Some are tempests. Some single weapon users. Some are even centered monks.

Odds are that wolves will see a TWF Nerf from hell unless this becomes built-in.... Hence without specialization of the enhancement trees, you'll have a jack-of-all trades that excels at none.

[elvesunited]

Odds are that wolves will see a TWF Nerf from hell unless this becomes built-in.... Hence without specialization of the enhancement trees, you'll have a jack-of-all trades that excels at none.

Over-specialization can hurt a character as well. Particularly a melee character. not enough defense and/or self recovery can render the highest DPS character handicapped as they die too quickly. Too much defense and you don't contribute enough DPS for the group.

My guess is that the reason that the TWF bug ( and it's been out there for years ) has not been fixed is that DDO recognizes that the bug is what makes wolves competitive not something that gives it an unfair advantage. So the likelyhood is that they'll fix it at the same time they provide a way for Druid animal forms to get +W and/or melee power bonuses.

In a previous build on this wolf I got to 30 without using the two weapon bug. Even ran the epic elite slave lords. Wasn't the most powerful DPS but made a significant contribution, did not die, and even helped keep the fighter ( who had better dps ) alive. It wouldn't take that big a boost for wolves to become more competitive DPS without the bug. Fix the critical range issue, allow that fighting feats you have in humanoid form transfer the benefits to wolf form ( but not the bug that allows the wolf to get benefits from combination of fighting feats that aren't possible in humanoid form ), and add some +W and maybe even some melee power. And you are there.

Bear on the other hand .....

[Smokewolf]

Jack of all Trades builds are fine for P&P Dungens and Dragons worlds but has no effective place online. In DDO everything is about end game viabilty matched with the correct level / build specific gear. Otherwise that player is just fodder to be rez'd over and over again.

Allot of this explains why Druid's as a class are in the state they are... Trying to do too much within one class within a poorly constructed enhancement tree. Which largely doesn't support how the majority of players use Wolf-Form in realword play.

Note: The same could be said of Bards to some extent as well.

Now as for TWF... This doesn't makes sense to allow it to carry over simply because Druids in Wolf-Form attack with bites and claw attacks (piercing / slashing). Maybe something else will come up in its place but nothing like what we have seen so far. Please keep in mind that we've been told over and over again that the game mechanics (code) needs to be rewritten to correct Animal-Form related melee issues.

[BigErkyKid]

J
Now as for TWF... This doesn't makes sense to allow it to carry over simply because Druids in Wolf-Form attack with bites and claw attacks (piercing / slashing). Maybe something else will come up in its place but nothing like what we have seen so far. Please keep in mind that we've been told over and over again that the game mechanics (code) needs to be rewritten to correct Animal-Form related melee issues.

Without rewriting, they could just update how natural fighting works. This is precisely what those feats were created for, to substitute combat styles. However, 6% DBs can hardly compare to 20% extra hits (TWF).

Then let people choose between natural fighting (make it a combat style) or TWF/SWF/S&B.

[Smokewolf]

Without rewriting, they could just update how natural fighting works. This is precisely what those feats were created for, to substitute combat styles. However, 6% DBs can hardly compare to 20% extra hits (TWF).

Then let people choose between natural fighting (make it a combat style) or TWF/SWF/S&B.

This will not resolve the issue(s) with +W weapon effects nor will it address the Base-Damage, Critical Profile(s) & Effects of many weapons being higher then that of Wolf-Form. However allowing the Wolf and Bear forms to "specialize" in either melee combat or tanking, per the form selected, would go along way to providing some synergy Druid's have long been without.

Keep in mind that DDO rewards specialization...

Example: players group together and rely on each others strengths, be it melee, crowd-control, traps or healing. This not only allows them to conquer missions easier, with less risk, more experience & loot rolls but also for faster completion. This in turn provides for faster leveling, a sense of team and accomplishment that otherwise may not of been possible without such specialization. Granted it's 100% possible to be a Jack-Of-All-Trades and solo every Epic Elite mission out there but none of the before mentioned benefits would apply.

In a sense, players are penalized for soloing missions. Hence why DDO's focus is really about the end game, just like any other MMO out there.

[BigErkyKid]

This will not resolve the issue(s) with +W weapon effects nor will it address the Base-Damage, Critical Profile(s) & Effects of many weapons being higher then that of Wolf-Form. However allowing the Wolf and Bear forms to "specialize" in either melee combat or tanking, per the form selected, would go along way to providing some synergy Druid's have long been without.
.

Oh I know! I am talking strictly about the TWF/SWF/S&B and NF situation. Something that was meant to replace is super weak, and hence people still NEED TWF and so on. All the rest is well noted and I agree fully.

[elvesunited]

Without rewriting, they could just update how natural fighting works. This is precisely what those feats were created for, to substitute combat styles. However, 6% DBs can hardly compare to 20% extra hits (TWF).

Then let people choose between natural fighting (make it a combat style) or TWF/SWF/S&B.

Because it then nerfs all those who chose feats in both fighting styles and in natural fighting. Which likely is most wolf builds out there. The natural fighting feats which may have been intended as an animal form fighting style instead became compensation ( not good enough ) for the inability to ever increase the +W of the base damage.

So let them take both. DDO is replete with WAI examples of melee fighters using multiple forms of fighting styles at the same time.
Bastard Sword/Dwarven Axe + shield getting Two-handed fighting and shield mastery at same time.
Swashbucklers getting single weapon fighting and shield mastery at same time.

So my suggestion .....

Fix the bug that allows the wolf to get the benefits of two weapon fighting when it is not wielding two weapons in its inventory. Allow it if they actually are wielding two weapons.

then

Change Natural fighting to +6% doublestrike / +0.5W ( +1W for bear form ) natural damage / +2 Combat Style melee bonus ( which won't stack with other combat style bonuses )

and then add a Perfect Natural fighting epic destiny feat like exists for two handed, two weapon fighting and single weapon fighting.

This way you can fix the bug, keep wolves competitive and maintain the variety with minimal damage to already existing builds. Wolves don't need that much help. Bears on the other hand .....

[BigErkyKid]

Because it then nerfs all those who chose feats in both fighting styles and in natural fighting. Which likely is most wolf builds out there. The natural fighting feats which may have been intended as an animal form fighting style instead became compensation ( not good enough ) for the inability to ever increase the +W of the base damage.

So let them take both. DDO is replete with WAI examples of melee fighters using multiple forms of fighting styles at the same time.
Bastard Sword/Dwarven Axe + shield getting Two-handed fighting and shield mastery at same time.
Swashbucklers getting single weapon fighting and shield mastery at same time.

So my suggestion .....

Fix the bug that allows the wolf to get the benefits of two weapon fighting when it is not wielding two weapons in its inventory. Allow it if they actually are wielding two weapons.

then

Change Natural fighting to +6% doublestrike / +0.5W ( +1W for bear form ) natural damage / +2 Combat Style melee bonus ( which won't stack with other combat style bonuses )

and then add a Perfect Natural fighting epic destiny feat like exists for two handed, two weapon fighting and single weapon fighting.

This way you can fix the bug, keep wolves competitive and maintain the variety with minimal damage to already existing builds. Wolves don't need that much help. Bears on the other hand .....

The problem with this is that S&B is strictly worse than other styles without trees like vanguard. But anyway I like the general spirit of the proposal wrt natural fighting.

Let's see if we can have a dev drop by an acknowledge the thread.