U33.2 aggro mechanic

[Ellihor]

So it seems if a single monster is alerted, the whole room will do the same. So if you are invising and there is one champ with true seeing, it's like if the whole room had true seeing for spot purposes. It never made much sense to me the old mechanic that a monster would be alerted while his buddies not, but I just wanted to know if this is WAI. But if the idea was to make real world sense, get rid of dungeon alert, because it doesn't have any.

This is also causing alert on almost every single room you go in, even if you are clearing everything. Maybe with this new mechanic if you're not going to remove the alert, at least you may want to change the number of enemies that need to be alerted to cause green/yellow/orange/red alert.

[zehnvhex]

I think that's why they reverted the change last time they tried to 'fix it'. You'd agro 90% of the dungeon in some quests.

[Wizza]

Pulling mobs one at the time has always been one of the working strats of this game, and now they called it a bug.

And if what you say is true (which I don't doubt), this game really doesn't need more Dungeon Alert. We need less.

[Ellihor]

Pulling mobs one at the time has always been one of the working strats of this game, and now they called it a bug.

And if what you say is true (which I don't doubt), this game really doesn't need more Dungeon Alert. We need less.

Invis too, has been a part of DDO and one of the unique things about it. I'm all for not being able to invis on Legendary, but they should remove true seeing and see invisibility from champions on heroic and epic content, and put an ignore concealment buff instead. Not being able to invis does not make things harder, only slower and grindier, and the builds who suffer most are the ones without good AoE.

RIP invis. Thank god I don't need many heroic PLs on my mains.

[Isolani]

Yep, just did The Riddle on elite, one champion mob saw me and I went to orange alert immediately...stupid. Ended up doing the whole quest in a red alert pretty much, took 3 times as long as usual. I hope this isn't the future of DDO.

Edit: If invis is going to work this way, then remove dungeon alert at least.

[Ellihor]

Compare this:

U33.2 -> https://youtu.be/SXnN7v9q8o0?t=20s

with this

U33.1 -> https://youtu.be/msNde6po1z8?t=1m6s

Look how the gnoll after the first door used to aggro you, and now he aggro and pulls the whole room to you, even the mobs that are not seeing you because they are behind the wall. Continuing, the hallway with archers: one mob, probably the champion with TS spotted, and this caused all mobs on the hallway to be alerted, although they still couldn't see where I was.

The mobs also seem to pack more, so that's good for AoE builds and bad for single target ones.

That's silly when gnoll seers are seeing you through multiple walls.

This is all fine and make logical sense. But, if logic was the thing, then remove dungeon alert because it doesn't make any sense and there is no such mechanic on pnp.

[MacDubh]

It is a bit daft when you can shoot enemies one at a time, kill them, without their mates noticing. Melees can't do that, so it is a bit of a bug that ranged can.

As for 'if one spots you, then so do his pals' that's ok, but it shouldn't be beyond the immediate group.

Unfortunately, newer dungeons have been designed with huge groups hanging around together - and this doesn't work with the change to the aggro mechanic.

[SpartanKiller13]

I think that's why they reverted the change last time they tried to 'fix it'. You'd aggro 90% of the dungeon in some quests.

See, if it didn't chain beyond the initial group, this would be fine.

Pulling mobs one at the time has always been one of the working strats of this game, and now they called it a bug.

And if what you say is true (which I don't doubt), this game really doesn't need more Dungeon Alert. We need less.

Not always, if you read above in the post. Also, "it's always been that way" is a rather poor argument in favor of something. Basically you were cheesing the AI mechanics so you can waltz through a dungeon with literally no effort, and you're sad that you can't anymore. Does that seem right?

Invis too, has been a part of DDO and one of the unique things about it. I'm all for not being able to invis on Legendary, but they should remove true seeing and see invisibility from champions on heroic and epic content, and put an ignore concealment buff instead. Not being able to invis does not make things harder, only slower and grindier, and the builds who suffer most are the ones without good AoE.

RIP invis. Thank god I don't need many heroic PLs on my mains.

In your view invis should be a free pass for xp/favor, limited only by runspeed and levers? Because that's seriously boring if all the BB groups will just invisi run for 2min completion which is what would happen without any checks.

It is a bit daft when you can shoot enemies one at a time, kill them, without their mates noticing. Melees can't do that, so it is a bit of a bug that ranged can.

As for 'if one spots you, then so do his pals' that's ok, but it shouldn't be beyond the immediate group.

Unfortunately, newer dungeons have been designed with huge groups hanging around together - and this doesn't work with the change to the aggro mechanic.

I would say it's just a bug in general, regardless of who is doing it. I'd be against it just as fervently if melees could walk up and kill someone without aggroing the nearby enemies.
If the aggro didn't spread beyond those immediately next to the one with reason to be aggroed (dead/seeing you etc) I think it'd be fine.
New dungeons designed with various group sizes based on difficulty; if you can't run Elite, run Hard. Like every melee ever; if you can't kill a whole group in one go, figure out how to fix that or run on Hard instead.

Considering you can run backwards at full speed while shooting, let alone IPS, I really can't see the problem with the theory here. Bluff is the new pull mechanic.

IMO fix the aggro spread mechanic (no full dungeon aggro) and it'll be perfect.

[changelingamuck]

Haven't played since this patch. But if this change kills invis-zerging, then there's one thing that I like about it.

[Ellihor]

It is a bit daft when you can shoot enemies one at a time, kill them, without their mates noticing. Melees can't do that, so it is a bit of a bug that ranged can.

Sure, but that's not what I'm talking about on this thread.

Unfortunately, newer dungeons have been designed with huge groups hanging around together - and this doesn't work with the change to the aggro mechanic.

That's the problem. Also they're bugged and aggro you through doors and walls.

[Ellihor]

In your view invis should be a free pass for xp/favor, limited only by runspeed and levers? Because that's seriously boring if all the BB groups will just invisi run for 2min completion which is what would happen without any checks.

It's not free. You still have to do the quest. And invis is not an easy thing to do, it does not solve all of your problems. Invis requires skill, most people can't do it: it's actually harder than to kill the stuff. Thats why people usually kill everything in quests like End of The Road and Trackers Trap instead instead of invising: because pugs always mess up.

I'm ok with not being able to invis on endgame content, but for lvling I'm not. Lvling already is painfully boring for the people who know the game enough to make use of invis. I think it's refreshing when I do the quests that can be invised. If you don't think it's fun you can just kill the stuff, that won't change your game.

[Wizza]

Not always, if you read above in the post. Also, "it's always been that way" is a rather poor argument in favor of something. Basically you were cheesing the AI mechanics so you can waltz through a dungeon with literally no effort, and you're sad that you can't anymore. Does that seem right?

I'm not sad. I just think it's a stupid change. Melees could just pull a throwing dagger to pulls mobs as well. If the newest dungeons weren't 50 200k hp mobs all grouped in every room, I wouldn't have a problem with this.

[Rys]

Haven't played since this patch. But if this change kills invis-zerging, then there's one thing that I like about it.

Because only one way to play is the right way

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I just experimented with this.

Went into the Vale to the nest of rats near Meridia.

I was in sneak mode.

Made sure the only one rat was facing me.
And that I was pretty far back away from them.

I stood up.


Every single rat in the group instantly agroed on me.


So uhm...
yeah.



IMO, this is not fixed, it is just broken in a different way.


A long time ago, this worked correctly.
Damaging a monster made him tell his friends about you.
Letting him see you, did not.
I used to be very good a single pulling, just by standing up and letting one guy see me.

Now... maybe... the current way makes more sense.... but it bothers me.

But the thing is.
this game used to have a very sophisticated system with stealth and agro.

Monsters did talk to each other.
If you hurt them, they told their friends.
if you didn't they didn't tell anyone.

If they heard you, they told their friends they heard something, and walked closer to you to investigate... their friends followed.

If they attacked something, their friends walked over to them, to see what they were attacking....
(Flaming spheres also told monsters they were attacking something, and they all followed the sphere around to see what was gong on.)


I love the changed from the stealth pass awhile back, but it broke a bunch of things that have never quite worked correctly since...





(gonna go test noise makers... been awhile, and I know at one point these were broke too....)


Edit, ok, at least noise makers work right now


Bluff works.



Although, it appears the group agro thing has quiet a range.....
further than I would like...right now.... hmmm....

on further testing, maybe the range isn't that bad.

Seems like the current problem is just that I cannot let a monster see me without him telling all of his friends. (within a certain range)


Which... I am not sure what I think about that right now.... hmmm

[dogsoldier]

All mobs in the Tri-Realm area are instantly aggro'd on you if you hit a single target. The patch notes allude to the idea that this was the way it used to be, which is definitely not true. Have been playing since 2007 on and off, that behavior has never been the case. It is possible, and reasonable, that the adjacent mobs would be triggered when you hit one enemy some time ago, but the whole room/instance was not after you. Prior to this update, Archer's Focus was actually useful (a little more damage to single target). There is no benefit to it at this point under any circumstances at this time, unless it is a single boss with no associates. Let Sleeping Dust Lie would be a lot tougher if every spider instantly aggro'd on you.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Haven't played since this patch. But if this change kills invis-zerging, then there's one thing that I like about it.

Oh, I doubt it will stop that.

People have been invis zerging through entire dungeons full of see-invis creatures for a long time now....lol
Seriously... they cast invis and run... and are completely oblivious to what it works on and what it doesn't...
basically they blame some noob if it gets too bad for them to complete the dungeon.

seen it lots of times...lol



(hint, Drow and Duergar... and everything at red-alert can see invis....)

...and most reavers, and most giants, and tharask hounds, and then there is that blind/tremor sense thing....spiders, oozes, Dread wraiths (at least the ones in the Orchard can).....

But the red alert thing is most common...
next would be Drow....
Reavers perhaps come in third most common...
..of the things I see people Invis run past....

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Invis walking works.

So maybe I will pull out my Chattering Ring again to try to pull See-Invis guys....lol


An agroed spider did not wake up a sleeping (whatever you call the unagroed state of some monsters that are there but not there yet...) elemental.
Might be something special about how it works with sleeping guys, but it is difficult to tell if there is a difference between ways they agro and what they communicate to others nearby.

Range appears to be 20-30 feetish (I have difficulty judging actual range by sight)
(the three dogs up on the hill in the Vale near the rats can be fought one or two at a time for example)
(a rat can be bluffed and made to move far enough not to agro his friends by noise, but have to be careful to make sure they are not looking at you...)

But anything (almost) (see above) near them in that range when they see you will be agroed on you as well.

There is still an "investigate" mode, so there are options, like Bluff, noise makers, and walking while invised.
I need to check box breaking (none of those near my rats in the Vale....lol)



Edit: just heard there is an Earth Elemental bug.
Probably influenced what I saw in the Vale.
Probably affects other sleeping(not really there yet) monsters.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

After more thought, this bothers me, because I used to be really, really good at simply letting one monster see me without agroing his friends...

I just lost a skill I had that few others possessed.



(and I never did set up that one button emote to /wave at them when I stood up..... /sigh)

[Talon_Moonshadow]

How does this work with Assassinate?

(don't make me go log onto Argo to check....with my Assassin....lol)

[janave]

What an ugly change, it basically transcribes to "be a warlock or go home".

This makes DDO less, not more.