U33.2 aggro mechanic

[janave]

I wont doubt that part of these changes has to do with Reaper, but this is something that needed to be addressed across the rest of the game too. players have been cheesing the agro mechanics for a very long time. Bruntsmash videos, players showing off how they invis solo runs, mobs turning and not moving while ranged bluffed taking away their threat to hit back, mobs spinning when more than 1 player beating on it successfully bluffs, mobs standing around as their friends get picked off one by one. the unintentional side effects from these changes are going to take some time.

what your post, just like many others, shows is your favor of less teamwork and more zerg. bluff pulling should be a viable tactic used intended more for the stealth builds. maybe niche, but for it to work properly and be a viable tactic for these builds, changes need to be made. as long as zerg and xp/min dominates in the game, bluff pulling will mostly be a solo thing. it wont work in groups.

That line is only half the truth, becaus depending on class icon, currently you can "cheese" the game with fully wai, supported and probably staying abilities as well.

Now, considering some of the class icons playing the cheese route were still less time/resources effective than just powering thru content and red alert. These changes seem to be a penalty to an already least efficient way to play.

I appreciate real improvements to gameplay, and less cheese, and more grouping, more strategy and tactics. What we have now is just LESS improvement than before.

What we got is simply less, and i am yet to see any player or developer counter this argument with proper facts.

The current AI is just as (if not more) abusable by different abilities, and those abilities can take out not 1 per group per shot, but entire groups per shot, just sayin.

What we have so far is "yes we know some players dont love it", insisting this system was working so good for years, and a promise of "we are looking into this further".

Not sure how much time this will take, but i hope it will take less than the affected players abandoning the game.

Its pretty bitter on this side, just asking for some sympathy, and that the devs put this on top of priority chain.

[BigErkyKid]

Now, considering some of the class icons playing the cheese route were still less time/resources effective than just powering thru content and red alert. These changes seem to be a penalty to an already least efficient way to play.

This

I appreciate real improvements to gameplay, and less cheese, and more grouping, more strategy and tactics. What we have now is just LESS improvement than before.

And this. We have now even FEWER options aside from face rolling.

What we got is simply less, and i am yet to see any player or developer counter this argument with proper facts.

And you won't, because it is a fact.

Not sure how much time this will take, but i hope it will take less than the affected players abandoning the game.

The things they choose to balance never cease to amaze me. Looking at what is being used to destroy content, have they seriously reached the conclusion that it was bluff pulling? Don't the developers have eyes to see how content is played? Even in lama reaper bluff pulling was not used, even with 10 skulls.

I really want to try this DDO that they are playing in their test servers. I am starting to thing that it is a completely different game and that I would actually love it.

[moomooprincess]

Add me to the list that this is a bad mechanic.

This feature pretty much discourages any new players as they have no chance.

Of course, all the TRs and uber players don't care. All 1,000 of them.

They want a challenge. They whine about it. Now if they are the whales that spend $10,000 on the game annually, fine. But I bet they are not.

[Qhualor]

You are wrong, I don't favor " less teamwork and more zerg". My writing just reflects the fact of the game as it exists right now, not in some imaginary world where "bluff pulling" is powerful, and it needs to be addressed.

Fact is that, aside from LE tempest solo runs, pulling is not needed nor desired in the rest of content. Mobs turning around favored disproportionately builds that are less tanky, and aside from cheesing a few encounters, again it was not powerful overall in the game.

Addressing bluff pulling and stealth tactics with the new aggro is attempting to balance characters against content starting in the wrong place. The builds and archetypes using it were niche, flavor, and far from optimal. The solution has caused more problems than it solves.

As for teamwork, I would favor a game a la "Commandos" if it was up to me. That is, where we cannot simply face roll any dungeon an encounter, and having a scout check out corridors, taking alternative routes, thinking that if we just step in its death with certainty, is the common place. This would be a better teamwork game.

But we don't have it. So my comments are based on what we do have. Based on the REAL game, this change has been an absolute disaster so far. It does not address the real issue, which is that we are too powerful wrt to content. It has never been a problem of people "bluff pulling" to victory. The problem with teamwork has always been people face rolling to victory, and this changes to aggro have done absolutely nothing to change that. And while they don't address balance wrt content, they surely have screwed a very niche role of stealth.

Yes you do. You don't come out and say it directly, but it's indirectly said in your threads. You think every build you play is weak compared to whatever is considered top build is at that time. You suggest homogenization and the most recent example is wanting AOEs for single target classes. You suggest lots of things that you feel is behind top builds be up to the same speed as whatever top build is at the time. Again with bluff pulling you show your lack of understanding with the mechanics of the game.

If bluff pulling is not desired, than why are there players besides me talking about it. Some players are asking for it to be a viable tactic. Bluff pulling does not fit into today's game in groups. It's a solo tactic. In groups bluff pulling is replaced with zerg AOE power heal power dps.

[BigErkyKid]

Yes you do. You don't come out and say it directly, but it's indirectly said in your threads. You think every build you play is weak compared to whatever is considered top build is at that time. You suggest homogenization and the most recent example is wanting AOEs for single target classes. You suggest lots of things that you feel is behind top builds be up to the same speed as whatever top build is at the time. Again with bluff pulling you show your lack of understanding with the mechanics of the game.

If bluff pulling is not desired, than why are there players besides me talking about it. Some players are asking for it to be a viable tactic. Bluff pulling does not fit into today's game in groups. It's a solo tactic. In groups bluff pulling is replaced with zerg AOE power heal power dps.

Two different ways to look at the same thing. Because I understand the mechanics in the game, and I observe how content is designed and best played, I suggest what I do. From your posts, on the contrary, I deduce that you are not on top of the meta shifts (for example playing a FOTW barbarian, your own words). See how easy it is to throw accusations around?

The case we are debating is different. Bluff pulling is a suboptimal tactic used by people playing flavor builds. And that is precisely why changing it does not help with the ultimate goal, which is bringing more content vs PC power balance. It is simply not true that bluff was excessively powerful and needed to be nerfed.

If they are thinking about some instances in reaper, then they should say so. But so far evidence from reaper is not that people are bluff pulling to victory, rather just mass holding / webbing / insta killing reapers and destroying held mobs with DPS builds.

So from the perspective of the player, this is a completely failed policy. It attacks a weak play style and does nothing to reign in the power of the AoE content destroyers.

[JOTMON]

~snip~

Of course, all the TRs and uber players don't care. All 1,000 of them.

They want a challenge. They whine about it. Now if they are the whales that spend $10,000 on the game annually, fine. But I bet they are not.

irrelevant post to the thread.. but I will bite...

I would disagree... Uber players do care.. they are just in a position to be able to still get through content while still thinking.. *** is going on with the mob aggro...

and.. Yeah they probably are the ones that spend $..
They still are VIP's or at least are former VIP`s that own all the packs, expansions, purchased all the best tomes, storage space, alt characters, alt accounts, guildships..
Uber players invest the time into the game, they grind all the best gear, farm TR lives, purchase the perks, have all the best buffs to attain all the best benchmarks..

are they whining?.. they want ongoing challenge to support their time and monetary investment...
Vested players tend to whine more because they don't want to say screw it and leave like casual and newer players would tend to do...
There needs to be ongoing motivation for players to invest into the game, not get bored and go play something else..
New players need to be motivated to become vested players..
Keeping players in the loop with development and plans will keep players holding on longer than they would with no communication..

DDO has a great DnD based game with a great combat engine, a complex learning curve.. not a game for the simplistic gamer..
There are many area's for improvements and ongoing improvements to 'smart' game mechanics, and intuitive challenge to keep players attentive does need to be done.
Players for the most part just want to know they are being heard and are having their opinions taken seriously by those with the capability to control the direction of the game.

After all, we want to keep playing a game we like..

[nokowi]

If bluff pulling is not desired, than why are there players besides me talking about it. Some players are asking for it to be a viable tactic. Bluff pulling does not fit into today's game in groups. It's a solo tactic. In groups bluff pulling is replaced with zerg AOE power heal power dps.

Bluff pulling will be a group tactic in reaper, where AoE zerg power heal has more limitations.

You should be able to figure this out with a few seconds of thought.

The problem is making the rest of the game (outside of reaper) less fun (less tactical options) and supporting the flavor of the year (AoE) through their design choices. AoE has always been superior, but not to the extent that it is today.

Any changes to enhance reaper difficulty should also make non-reaper more interesting and fun to play.


HIGHER PRIORITY CHANGES TO ADD CHALLENGE IN REAPER

Why do you keep designing dungeons with massive numbers of closely packed low HP mobs?

Why don't ranged mobs spread out like they do in ToEE?

Why don't ranged mobs do more damage in reaper, relative to melee?

Why are 50 mobs in red alert standing in the same AoE burst?

Red alert should cause every mob to scatter and pull out a ranged weapon with very high damage.

[JOTMON]

Bluff pulling will be a group tactic in reaper, where AoE zerg power heal has more limitations.

You should be able to figure this out with a few seconds of thought.

The problem is making the rest of the game (outside of reaper) less fun (less tactical options) and supporting the flavor of the year (AoE) through their design choices. AoE has always been superior, but not to the extent that it is today.

Any changes to enhance reaper difficulty should also make non-reaper more interesting and fun to play.


HIGHER PRIORITY CHANGES TO ADD CHALLENGE IN REAPER

Why do you keep designing dungeons with massive numbers of closely packed low HP mobs?

Why don't ranged mobs spread out like they do in ToEE?

Why don't ranged mobs do more damage in reaper, relative to melee?

Why are 50 mobs in red alert standing in the same AoE burst?

Red alert should cause every mob to scatter and pull out a ranged weapon with very high damage.

Bluff is the new intimidate..
~Bluff can now be used to pull mobs away from their friends!
If a mob has no enemy when you apply bluff it will chase the player without sharing aggro to its friends for the duration of the bluff.
Bluffed enemies who already have aggro are distracted as normal.
....WTX... Something Intimidators have been asking for... for years... targeted single mob intimidate... and they give it to bluffers...


~Monsters' resistance to Bluff now scales better with level and dungeon difficulty.
~Cooldown: 15 Seconds
~A successful Bluff lasts for 4 seconds
.... ****.. thats a long cooldown to effect duration ratio... 4:1....


When making a Bluff attempt, the game rolls a Bluff check (1d20 + total Bluff skill) and compares the total roll against bluff resistance. If the roll is greater than or equal to this value, the Bluff succeeds.
Bluff resistance in Update 33 Patch 2 Release Notes (Torc):
Normal: creature level (CR) + quest level
Hard: multiply by 1.25
Elite: multiply by 1.5
Every time a monster is successfully Bluffed, it gains a permanent cumulative +1 modifier to resist later Bluffs. There is no way to reset this bonus short of respawning the monster. Any creature that can be Bluffed eventually becomes immune to Bluffing if it works enough times - or if it fails enough times.
...whats the factor for Reaper?
....whats the 'Mob Bluff Resisnance' and how do we as players determine it before attempting to bluff mobs..

....how the hell are players supposed to monitor/track the bluff success/fail factor chance.. I think I bluffed it 12 times ..is it no fail bluff resist now? can it fail on a '1' roll... is there a bluff modifier counter in the mob examine window...
....what happens when someone else bluffs the mob.. is it per character or in total...

[nokowi]

....how the hell are players supposed to monitor/track the bluff success/fail factor chance.. I think I bluffed it 12 times ..is it no fail bluff resist now? can it fail on a '1' roll... is there a bluff modifier counter in the mob examine window...
....what happens when someone else bluffs the mob.. is it per character or in total...

There is a bluff roll that you can see on the d20.

All you need to do is open your character sheet and examine your current bluff, target over the mob to see their CR, examine the dungeon info to see the dungeon level, and then multiply (dungeon level + CR) by a non integer factor to see if bluff is worth using (which is only when it is no-fail).

Simple, NO? (lots of sarcasm in the above sentence)


I wonder, Is a failed bluff now better than intimidate? (does it steal agro?) - sorry not currently playing DDO

[Jasparion]

The things they choose to balance never cease to amaze me. Looking at what is being used to destroy content, have they seriously reached the conclusion that it was bluff pulling? Don't the developers have eyes to see how content is played? Even in lama reaper bluff pulling was not used, even with 10 skulls.

I really want to try this DDO that they are playing in their test servers. I am starting to thing that it is a completely different game and that I would actually love it.

I think you are making a pretty big assumption on how much testing actually gets done. It has been obvious for a very long time that almost no testing gets done. And when we get a look at it, almost all the feedback is ignored.

There is always too big a rush to get it live, and then it will only be fixed if the outrage is big enough. Otherwise it just goes on the list of things to fix "one day, maybe".

I'd love to see a side-by-side of the 20 biggest issues as seen by the players, and the 20 biggest issues as seen by the Producers. My bet is we would maybe see 1 or 2 of the same items.

This thread is the perfect example. Dev time being devoted to getting the Bluff check numbers just right (and apparently being based on some farcical expected numbers players can reach) - when the massive issue is what happens when you fail a Bluff check and half the dungeon aggros on you.

[nokowi]

There is always too big a rush to get it live, and then it will only be fixed if the outrage is big enough. Otherwise it just goes on the list of things to fix "one day, maybe".

And you can fully expect players to scold you when you do express your dissatisfaction.

They will tell you how counterproductive it is, when it is in fact the most import thing to get a change.

Only when devs initiate a conversation do specifics become important.

[TedSandyman]

Who does the change help? Who does it make the game more fun for? Who does it attract as new players? All it does is make a lot of people angry and some people quit. There really was no benefit at all to this change. So a few people, and I mean a very few, got through some sticky points by killing with a bow. Most people just zerg through anyway. Who the f cares? The only ones supporting the changes on the forums are the ones going "I don't think its right" but they have never been hurt or wiped a dungeon because of it. They just don't think it's right. Or they just don't think. The damage done to thief and the super, incredibly, unrealistic way the mobs behave now is so much more unrealistic than it was before that it makes my head hurt.

And the "I don't think it's right" crowd doesn't see that part because they think the issue is all about the bow. Every fricking bat, ooze, or spider in a dungeon sees you automatically and every monster near one of those are automatically alerted instantly. It destroys an assassin build as a solo type player. One of the most fun solo builds becomes impossible to play solo. Thief still works in a group, but god forbid you should ever need to do something on your own. If you are going to destroy the only way really to solo a thief, then you should also take those away from the other classes. Nerf Blade barrier. Nerf warlock down to about 1/4 of the blast damage and watch them get pounded by everything every time they try to use a blast. I bet you would hear some complaining then.

Did you see the nerf they put on firewall a few years back? My god, at its worst a firewall didn't even compare to the damage a warlock can do AND WITHOUT SPENDING AN OUNCE OF LIMITING MANA.

So unless you want to go back to the days where no one soloed dungeons, (and I'm actually not against that idea, I liked it when you HAD to have a balanced party) but it does not seem to be direction this game is taking. So fine. Let us solo, but please, please, please, don't make some stupid rash decision which destroys a class. Especially when that stupid rash decision has been done in the past with disastrous results.

FIX THE AGRO MECHANICS THE RIGHT WAY. DONT HALF A__ A WORKAROUND THAT KILLS A VALID PART OF THE GAME. I shouldn't have to say this to a professional game development company.

[HuneyMunster]

There is a bluff roll that you can see on the d20.

All you need to do is open your character sheet and examine your current bluff, target over the mob to see their CR, examine the dungeon info to see the dungeon level, and then multiply (dungeon level + CR) by a non integer factor to see if bluff is worth using (which is only when it is no-fail).

Simple, NO? (lots of sarcasm in the above sentence)


I wonder, Is a failed bluff now better than intimidate? (does it steal agro?) - sorry not currently playing DDO

The problem is which Im sure you will know is that a lot of mobs bluff dc will be near impossible to get on a rogue.

Example:
Overseer Solul in House of Broken Chains CR46 QL on Elite 25

(46+25)*1.5 = 105.

I do not know how a rogue at level 25 is meant to be able to succeed a role of 105.

Charisma
10 base
4 tome
11 enhancement crafted item
5 insight crafted item
2 ship
32 TOTAL

Bluff:
23 base
5 epic
3 tome
11 cha
5 improved deception
19 crafted item
2 good luck
3 throne room ship buff
4 GH
3 Charming (TA)
78 TOTAL

This mean zero chance of successfully bluffing the target.

Thats is also with making a heavy investment into bluff skill which requires having a decent Cannith crafting skill or a lot of luck finding items that can be fitted into a gear set.

Regular monster would have a lower dc due to lower CR, but the dc will still be near impossible for a rogue to hit.

[nokowi]

The problem is which Im sure you will know is that a lot of mobs bluff dc will be near impossible to get on a rogue.

Example:
Overseer Solul in House of Broken Chains CR46 QL on Elite 25

(46+25)*1.5 = 105.

I do not know how a rogue at level 25 is meant to be able to succeed a role of 105.

Charisma
10 base
4 tome
11 enhancement crafted item
5 insight crafted item
2 ship
32 TOTAL

Bluff:
23 base
5 epic
3 tome
11 cha
5 improved deception
19 crafted item
2 good luck
3 throne room ship buff
4 GH
3 Charming (TA)
78 TOTAL

This mean zero chance of successfully bluffing the target.

Thats is also with making a heavy investment into bluff skill which requires having a decent Cannith crafting skill or a lot of luck finding items that can be fitted into a gear set.

Regular monster would have a lower dc due to lower CR, but the dc will still be near impossible for a rogue to hit.

It's not a problem for power players. You can probably bluff everyone but the overseer and then solo him.


+9? Insightful bluff item.
+2 Skill tome +5
+2 Completionist
+6 Shroud Item+6 all Cha skills
+1 to all skills AP choice
+3 skill stance (epic past life).
+6 Epic Twist Allure(Fatesinger)

That's 29 more than you stated with less than a minute of thought, with a total of 107.

[VinceWhirlwind]

Who does the change help? Who does it make the game more fun for? Who does it attract as new players? All it does is make a lot of people angry and some people quit.

People "quit"? Good grief...

The new aggro is entertaining. And it's different. And it is clearly going to be rolled back at some stage.

So sit back and enjoy it instead of putting on your cranky pants.

Anybody been playing with Crystal spiders with the new aggro? Hilarious.
So - you're aggroing stuff you can't even see. Fine. Normally, that's OK, because everything charges at you.
But not Crystal Spiders.
They wander around in circles laying an egg every 10-15 seconds. You don't even know you've aggro'd them because you can't see them. There might be minutes' worth of running around pulling levers, etc... before you can even get to them. In that time, those 3 Crystal Spiders have laid about 25 eggs each.
Instant Red Alert!
And no mobs to fight because you can't see them and they aren't coming to you.

Should have saved this tweak for April 1, I reckon.

[ezmeweatherwax]

Inferno of the damned turned into a red alert nightmare, at least on heroic elite at level. After walking down an empty hall.

[KoobTheProud]

For solo players the new aggro mechanic is essentially a non-issue unless they were normally addressing one mob at a time while working their way through the dungeon.

I've been soloing on a Deepwoods Sniper/Mechanic, Tempest/Assassin, high level Warlock and low level Warlock and none of them can produce red alerts without doing the same things that would have produced red alerts before the change. There are choke points in some quests and adventure areas where sometimes chain aggro happens for several spawns in a row but I have yet to see this effect go global on a level or in a dungeon as a whole. None of the chain alerts have produced red alerts and very few orange alerts. I have yet to be able to reproduce the chain alerts reliably. Sometimes they happen at a spot and sometimes they don't and this is true whether the spawns are fixed at that spot or variable.

Stealth is working beautifully in the game again. There was a period of a couple of years where I barely touched my stealth characters because stealth was broken and using stealth was just slowing myself down going through a dungeon or adventure area. Pulling single mobs away from spawns with one and two shot kills was the quickest way to dispose of them. Now the quickest most reliable way to handle the situation is often to stealth on by them and never fight them at all. That's a great stealth game. Kill what you have too and walk by everything else. The prospect of getting busted and the mobs that can't be dealt with via stealth or that are really deadly when you get busted adds the immersion that stealth had been lacking when it was a "go to the office/do the paperwork/punchout" process.

[Riddle_of_Steel]

For solo players the new aggro mechanic is essentially a non-issue unless they were normally addressing one mob at a time while working their way through the dungeon.

I've been soloing on a Deepwoods Sniper/Mechanic, Tempest/Assassin, high level Warlock and low level Warlock and none of them can produce red alerts without doing the same things that would have produced red alerts before the change. There are choke points in some quests and adventure areas where sometimes chain aggro happens for several spawns in a row but I have yet to see this effect go global on a level or in a dungeon as a whole. None of the chain alerts have produced red alerts and very few orange alerts. I have yet to be able to reproduce the chain alerts reliably. Sometimes they happen at a spot and sometimes they don't and this is true whether the spawns are fixed at that spot or variable.

Stealth is working beautifully in the game again. There was a period of a couple of years where I barely touched my stealth characters because stealth was broken and using stealth was just slowing myself down going through a dungeon or adventure area. Pulling single mobs away from spawns with one and two shot kills was the quickest way to dispose of them. Now the quickest most reliable way to handle the situation is often to stealth on by them and never fight them at all. That's a great stealth game. Kill what you have too and walk by everything else. The prospect of getting busted and the mobs that can't be dealt with via stealth or that are really deadly when you get busted adds the immersion that stealth had been lacking when it was a "go to the office/do the paperwork/punchout" process.

You aren't seeing it because you aren't invisizerging or just plain zerging to into an AoE ball. And honestly I am OK with that. So far I have pulled Red a couple of times, and times when it would have stopped at Orange, I am finding Yellow lasts as long as it used to but Orange might as well not be there. Not complaining though I only have real trouble if I pull more than a couple of champs into the meat ball of death.

[KoobTheProud]

You aren't seeing it because you aren't invisizerging or just plain zerging to into an AoE ball. And honestly I am OK with that. So far I have pulled Red a couple of times, and times when it would have stopped at Orange, I am finding Yellow lasts as long as it used to but Orange might as well not be there. Not complaining though I only have real trouble if I pull more than a couple of champs into the meat ball of death.

This is basically my point. Red Alerts are about play style, and for the most part (maybe the only part), about zerging through content that the devs do not want zerged.

Why the devs don't want it zerged is a matter for debate, with AI issues and lag and intended play of game content all getting some mention. However it's clear that they don't want players to roll through dungeons at top speed without addressing the obstacles placed in front of them in the order they're intended to be addressed.

I've never zerged and so I never see Red Alerts. Apparently the community had figured out how to zerg without provoking Red Alerts under the nerfed aggro system between update 17 and 33. Now the nerfs have been reversed and in some cases apparently the AI has been hardened against zerging and the community is routinely seeing Red Alerts when they try to zerg.

This is all a play style issue. It's a play style issue caused by changes in the game state but still just a play style issue. When the community adjusts its play style to reflect the fact that zerging is no longer as easily accomplished as it used to be then the Red Alerts will drop back down and the issue will go away.

[Raederle]

It's not a problem for power players. You can probably bluff everyone but the overseer and then solo him.


+9? Insightful bluff item.
+2 Skill tome +5
+2 Completionist
+6 Shroud Item+6 all Cha skills
+1 to all skills AP choice
+3 skill stance (epic past life).
+6 Epic Twist Allure(Fatesinger)

That's 29 more than you stated with less than a minute of thought, with a total of 107.

If I have to buy a plus 5 skill tome for an off skill like charsima, raid the shroud lots on my first life rogue when I've never been on a raid yet, come up with epic past lives lives on my first life rogue at 20th just to be able to bluff, then bluff is useless, slow pulling is impossible, and I'm never going to GET to where I have any of that.

That's like saying that it's easy to ice skate all you have to do is win the olympics in figure skating and you'll have no problems. Not surprisingly, that attitude at the ice skating ring will lead many to take up baseball instead.

I actually agree with most of what you've said all through this long thread, but this one's a bit over the top for a game that wants to keep new players.