U33.2 aggro mechanic

[Qhualor]

Cordovan was talking about the fix the day after the patch and was referring to what the devs attempted to improve in a specific thread on TOEE.

We appreciate the feedback. To be fair, though, this isn't a new alert mechanic so much as it is a return to the non-broken alert mechanic we had for years.

he wasn't saying the current borked mechanics is intended when complaints weren't anymore than 24 hours old during typical American holiday time that most likely has half the team on vacation. who knows if a dev with specific knowledge on what they implemented is on vacation or in the office and who knows if the devs are currently investigating these issues. I do agree there should be some acknowledgement by a dev on this regardless, but the game is not broken or unplayable. yes, its not perfect but certainly playable. technically the devs are under no obligation to respond to us on the forums and I'm willing to cut them some slack right now given the holiday season.

[blerkington]

Now ^that's^ funny. You're complaining about the Dev staff of a video game (not exactly a "life or death" type industry) not communicating during a major holiday (Christmas!) time of year (at least it's "major" in the country where they work) and you're calling them out as showing a major lack of understanding?

Structuring staff leave around busier periods is pretty standard though. Every place I've worked made sure it had enough staff to handle its busy periods, and the end of year holidays seems like a peak time for gaming companies to me.

But even if they can't foresee the in-game consequences of making changes to the AI, and they can't be bothered to test this stuff properly before making it live, maybe at least don't make the changes when you know there won't be enough people around to deal with problems.

Why not wait until everyone comes back before messing around with this stuff? That seems like a very obvious and avoidable failure, and it really smacks of lack of concern for the customers too.

Thanks.

[nokowi]

Cordovan was talking about the fix the day after the patch and was referring to what the devs attempted to improve in a specific thread on TOEE.



he wasn't saying the current borked mechanics is intended when complaints weren't anymore than 24 hours old during typical American holiday time that most likely has half the team on vacation. who knows if a dev with specific knowledge on what they implemented is on vacation or in the office and who knows if the devs are currently investigating these issues. I do agree there should be some acknowledgement by a dev on this regardless, but the game is not broken or unplayable. yes, its not perfect but certainly playable. technically the devs are under no obligation to respond to us on the forums and I'm willing to cut them some slack right now given the holiday season.

Let me guess, you play a ranged rogue/ranger and not an assassin in solo mode?

You won't understand what is broken if you don't play the builds most affected.

The last person I went through this with had a max rogue level of 13 (no knowledge of assassin issues), and couldn't comprehend the "hand of god" state. They went so far as to blame a ranged player for getting perma agro - outside of the players control.

Give us specifics about your knowledge of the most affected build and THEN give your conclusion.

[nokowi]

Structuring staff leave around busier periods is pretty standard though. Every place I've worked made sure it had enough staff to handle its busy periods, and the end of year holidays seems like a peak time for gaming companies to me.

But even if they can't foresee the in-game consequences of making changes to the AI, and they can't be bothered to test this stuff properly before making it live, maybe at least don't make the changes when you know there won't be enough people around to deal with problems.

Why not wait until everyone comes back before messing around with this stuff? That seems like a very obvious and avoidable failure, and it really smacks of lack of concern for the customers too.

Thanks.

Yes, an ounce of common sense could go a long way.

[PermaBanned]

No idea what you are talking about.

Nearly every said to fix the bugs - as in a permanent solution.

You seem to think rollback to a more playable version for assassins during bug fixes equates to a different final outcome.

I can't help you fix your logic - but it IS broken.

Here's my broken logic:

I've no reason to believe they can fix the broken parts while rolled back. In theory, they did some in-house testing before sending this live and did not encounter the issues we're currently having during that in-house testing - at least, that's the exact scenario they outlined when DoJ went live and had horendous lag they could not reproduce in-house even though they experienced it playing from home.

This strikes me as a likely similar situation, where they again need the actual live issues in order to sort them out - if that is correct, a rollback could indeed interfere with the long term outcome. Better to leave it live & fix it rather than return it to the test environment it came from.

[nokowi]

Here's my broken logic:

I've no reason to believe they can fix the broken parts while rolled back. In theory, they did some in-house testing before sending this live and did not encounter the issues we're currently having during that in-house testing - at least, that's the exact scenario they outlined when DoJ went live and had horendous lag they could not reproduce in-house even though they experienced it playing from home.

This strikes me as a likely similar situation, where they again need the actual live issues in order to sort them out - if that is correct, a rollback could indeed interfere with the long term outcome. Better to leave it live & fix it rather than return it to the test environment it came from.

Logic is based on facts, not opinions and your personal theory crafting, especially when you lack information.

A dev could certainly provide context/information to form conclusions, but that would involve 2 way communication.

[Qhualor]

Let me guess, you play a ranged rogue/ranger and not an assassin in solo mode?

You won't understand what is broken if you don't play the builds most affected.

The last person I went through this with had a max rogue level of 13 (no knowledge of assassin issues), and couldn't comprehend the "hand of god" state. They went so far as to blame a ranged player for getting perma agro - outside of the players control.

Give us specifics about your knowledge of the most affected build and THEN give your conclusion.

not currently, but I have. I know what its like to not get your SA damage and not able to bluff mobs. all of the rogue past lives I did were mostly solo and played like a fighter. most of the time pure or mostly pure rogue. I wonder if Blerkington remembers when Qhualor was doing rogue past lives using an ESOS? I have also been grouping with them a lot since the patch too. I am still seeing sneaky rogues. I am not oblivious to what has been happening.

[nokowi]

not currently, but I have. I know what its like to not get your SA damage and not able to bluff mobs. all of the rogue past lives I did were mostly solo and played like a fighter. most of the time pure or mostly pure rogue. I wonder if Blerkington remembers when Qhualor was doing rogue past lives using an ESOS? I have also been grouping with them a lot since the patch too. I am still seeing sneaky rogues. I am not oblivious to what has been happening.

If you didn't play U22 or U34.2 on a melee assassin, you don't have a clue what you are talking about with respect to current issues.

You don't know what is like to play an insta killer when insta killing doesn't work (agro is broken).

If you ran around on your rogue like a fighter, you definitely don't have a clue about the current issues.

You may not be oblivious, but you do lack the information about those affected to make a solid conclusion.

When you see rogues in groups, they are not experiencing the same issues as those going solo - please read up.

[Qhualor]

If you didn't play U22 or U34.2 on a melee assassin, you don't have a clue what you are talking about with respect to current issues.

You don't know what is like to play an insta killer when insta killing doesn't work (agro is broken).

If you ran around on your rogue like a fighter, you definitely don't have a clue about the current issues.

You may not be oblivious, but you do lack the information about those affected to make a solid conclusion.

I have been grouping with the occasional Assassin and have watched them assassinate since the patch. I was doing rogue past lives at that time. I remember specifically Qhualor doing rogue past lives right before Armor Up! which was U23. now how else will you try to discredit me?

it seem to me you are unable to rationally discuss anything by simply dismissing everything that contradicts you.

oh, and also, Qhualor was an Assassin during that time while wielding an ESOS. so, there were most times I played her like a fighter but I also played her like an Assassin too.

[nokowi]

I have been grouping with the occasional Assassin and have watched them assassinate since the patch. I was doing rogue past lives at that time. I remember specifically Qhualor doing rogue past lives right before Armor Up! which was U23. now how else will you try to discredit me?

I told you grouping was different than solo. Go to the rogue page and go read "Solo Assassin is Dead" thread.

U23 was the best working release of agro. You could know this form my earlier posts.

it seem to me you are unable to rationally discuss anything by simply dismissing everything that contradicts you.

What happened is you proved you don't know much about who is having issues (solo assassin), or what those issues are.

In other words, you confirmed my predictions about you.

oh, and also, Qhualor was an Assassin during that time while wielding an ESOS. so, there were most times I played her like a fighter but I also played her like an Assassin too.

During U23, when everything worked the best it ever has.

Go look at Dec 22 posts and you will see me ask for a return to U23.

That is NOT what we have now.

[Qhualor]

I told you grouping was different than solo. Go to the rogue page and go read "Solo Assassin is Dead" thread.

yes you did and I'm well aware about the complaints of agro and soloing. what I was saying was that assassinating mobs is not broken in groups. I haven't disagreed on anything about soloing and the problems with agro.

What happened is you proved you don't know much about who is having issues (solo assassin), or what those issues are.

In other words, you confirmed my predictions about you.

what happened is you dismiss anything that contradicts what you are saying. I guess I'm glad I didn't respond to some of your other posts I disagreed with.

In other words, you are known to be argumentative right or wrong.

yeah, not really in the mood for petty bickering so you can have the last word... or not. I don't care.

[nokowi]

....

I wish you would roll up a toon, and walk into ToEE (any quest, really) and try soloing on an assassin in U34.2 before you yell loudly on the forums that everything is great (exaggeration and hyperbole, but I think you can understand what I mean)

If you aren't interested in doing this, maybe you should reserve your conclusions on the forums and just stick to statements about your own experiences.

[blerkington]

what I was saying was that assassinating mobs is not broken in groups.

Unfortunately I don't remember much about grouping with you back when your main was an assassin. So I'm not going to be very useful for that part of the discussion.

What is going on in groups now is not quite as simple as the playstyle not being broken. There is still the problem of being detected when performing the first of what would normally be two assassinations if you go in first, making it impossible to do the second one because your targets are instantly alerted. However, you can still get the double by waiting for the mobs to aggro on someone else before going in yourself.

So for people who take their time and stay with the group, the change to aggro in groups is not hugely noticeable. But if you are an aggressive player and like to be first into an encounter, the new aggro system is much more problematic. It prevents double assassinations and means if you take out a single target you may well be detected and acquire much more aggro than you want. It also makes going off by yourself to do an objective while the group goes forward more dangerous than it was before.

The increased requirements to bluff and shiv being less effective before compound the problem when you're alone too. In a group you might not ever need to use these abilities through good aggro management. But they can be the difference between a fight being easy and difficult if you are alone.

Thanks.

[nokowi]

Unfortunately I don't remember much about grouping with you back when your main was an assassin. So I'm not going to be very useful for that part of the discussion.

This one is irrelevant because U23 would not familiarize anyone with the current issues.

It's enough to know he/she has no first hand knowledge of current issues to make my point.

What is going on in groups now is not quite as simple as the playstyle not being broken. There is still the problem of being detected when performing the first of what would normally be two assassinations if you go in first, making it impossible to do the second one because your targets are instantly alerted. However, you can still get the double by waiting for the mobs to aggro on someone else before going in yourself.

So for people who take their time and stay with the group, the change to aggro in groups is not hugely noticeable. But if you are an aggressive player and like to be first into an encounter, the new aggro system is much more problematic. It prevents double assassinations and means if you take out a single target you may well be detected and acquire much more aggro than you want. It also makes going off by yourself to do an objective while the group goes forward more dangerous than it was before.

The increased requirements to bluff and shiv being less effective before compound the problem when you're alone too. In a group you might not ever need to use these abilities through good aggro management. But they can be the difference between a fight being easy and difficult if you are alone.

Thanks.

The optimum way to play assassin was at the front of the group. This lets you clear traps ahead of the party, and remove key mobs before PC's rearrange things, sometimes in a not-so-intelligent manner.

This play style was the most risky and the most skilled, allowed you to excel with slower stealth movement, and was removed in U22 and 34.2 for groups (but viable outside of these 2 updates).

At least you still have workable (although far less skilled/fun) options in a group.

[NaturalHazard]

How much nerfs, could a nerflock nerf, if a nerflock could nerf nerfs?

[Raederle]

The optimum way to play assassin was at the front of the group. This lets you clear traps ahead of the party, and remove key mobs before PC's rearrange things, sometimes in a not-so-intelligent manner.

This play style was the most risky and the most skilled, allowed you to excel with slower stealth movement, and was removed in U22 and 34.2 for groups (but viable outside of these 2 updates).

Exactly. When grouping I'm with two friends, a pally and a cleric. They used to grouse at me about moving on ahead, but following the trail of dead caster bodies and disabled traps silenced that over time. Instead of staying back to help them slaughter 2-3 mobs 2x as fast, I moved on ahead to slaughter 3-5 priest/mage mobs leaving the heavily armored non casting 3-5 for them to handle. When I did get aggro I hadn't planned I was free to come racing back and hide behind the paladin's chain skirts.

Now? There's no point in my moving ahead and we all move more slowly as they wait for me to find and remove traps. We're all first lifers new to each dungeon. Sure I kill super fast when all aggro is on the pally, but it's boring Boring BORING. The thrill and the risk are now annoyance and certainty. Grouping is less fun.

The FINGER OF GOD effect, coupled with no assassination possible while they race past my secluded corner oblivious to my new location because despite that They're On Alert (tm), coupled with any one mob aggroing bringing the rest of the pack that's strung out rooms away means that solo play is broken. Assassination, stealth, bluff and traps were tools to break up the current quest designer fad of 10mobs 30feet 10mobs 20feet 10mobs 30feet placement. Assassination is halved, stealth is broken, bluff is insanely high DC's and traps are broken. That style of quest is now unplayable solo as a rogue, and all too common.

Separately, damage on bosses while solo is also halved given issues with shiv and bluff and deception. That makes half of the rest of the quests uncertain at best to this 20th level rogue, saving only for now maxxed pally destiny. Gosh, that part works just fine (300hp, 1500hp LoH's every 3 min w devotion gloves and my hamp, 10000 hp buffer, steady hp returned to me.). And they called the ability to slowly bluff pull overpowered????????

[blerkington]

This one is irrelevant because U23 would not familiarize anyone with the current issues.

It's enough to know he/she has no first hand knowledge of current issues to make my point.

I was making the more general point that I can't provide any sort of alibi about how well Qhualor understood the playstyle. But yes, conditions are not the same now as they were earlier on.

The optimum way to play assassin was at the front of the group.

I agree with this for experienced players on strong characters, but people who are newish to the class, not all geared out or maybe missing extra survivability from past lives may find they do better a step or two behind the front runner instead.

Thanks.

[Boneshank]

I agree with this for experienced players on strong characters, but people who are newish to the class, not all geared out or maybe missing extra survivability from past lives may find they do better a step or two behind the front runner instead.

This is definitely true in my experience.
The best assassins I have grouped with (be it the player, the toon, or both) were always somewhat leading the charge, and I could always see them striking surgically while tiptoeing unscathed through groups of mobs as the rest of the party engaged in force.
Not anymore.
Now I see some of these same assassins getting no further ahead than abreast of the lead 'visible' player. And often times staying, as blerkington said, a step or two behind.

Of course, that's the way I've been playing my first-life assassin the whole time, due to untimely aggro equaling possible death for me.
The latest patch obviously exacerbated the issue, if I now see some of these master assassins out there having to revert to the same weak playstyle that I use.

[Qhualor]

Unfortunately I don't remember much about grouping with you back when your main was an assassin. So I'm not going to be very useful for that part of the discussion.

What is going on in groups now is not quite as simple as the playstyle not being broken. There is still the problem of being detected when performing the first of what would normally be two assassinations if you go in first, making it impossible to do the second one because your targets are instantly alerted. However, you can still get the double by waiting for the mobs to aggro on someone else before going in yourself.

So for people who take their time and stay with the group, the change to aggro in groups is not hugely noticeable. But if you are an aggressive player and like to be first into an encounter, the new aggro system is much more problematic. It prevents double assassinations and means if you take out a single target you may well be detected and acquire much more aggro than you want. It also makes going off by yourself to do an objective while the group goes forward more dangerous than it was before.

The increased requirements to bluff and shiv being less effective before compound the problem when you're alone too. In a group you might not ever need to use these abilities through good aggro management. But they can be the difference between a fight being easy and difficult if you are alone.

Thanks.

I remember it like it was yesterday. we were running EGH and you were commenting on my build about how I must have really nasty SA damage using an ESOS. oh well, I was attempting to provide verification that I did play a rogue during U22, unlike someone else who was trying to tell me I didn't and being dismissive because I don't play one today. It's very easy to remember for me because the very next update was U23 with Armor Up! and how that changed a lot for DDO. U22 and U23 has been the basis to a lot of my arguments that has led DDO to where it is today.

the other day I was in a group with an Assassin and he obviously knew what he was doing because he stayed at the front. him and I were going toe to toe with kills and kill steals. no gripe, just annoying challenging. he would get the first kill, back off while I hit the mobs than after the cooldown was up he would jump in again which often times was the last hit.

the agro system is completely bonkers, but to be fair, it has been for a long time now. its now worse that unfortunately affects particular builds and soloists even more than others. yeah Shiv is awesome soloing, but I wonder if it still spins mobs to you while using it in a group. the last build I played that used this enhancement would steal agro from other players if the mobs back was to me. it was an easy way to stop mobs chasing kiters.

[Beelzebjorn]

So this probably isn't clear from the patch notes, but bluff can fail (it rolls), and if it does when your using it for solo pulls, you get aggro. You should see the die roll feedback just like when your disabling a trap. Also, monster's get a little extra bluff resistance on hard difficulties scaled to level, so a competitive bluff is required to use this tactic reliably.

If your finding monsters are reacting on a successful bluff, please post (or pm me) a /loc and general details and we will investigate.

Hey Torc. Regarding the aggro mechanic, care to take a moment to check into the related issue of mobs mysteriously knowing exactly where to look for stealthy toons that have long since slipped away all the way across dungeons, several minutes after said toon has slipped back into stealth-mode and moved away?

Mostly out to bring it to dev-attention, although I'd of course appreciate some feedback if you have time.