U33.2 aggro mechanic

[blerkington]

Since I live in a region where the Krampus actually originates...

Yes, I was talking to him about you just the other day, so be good for goodness sake. Otherwise you might get worse than just a little coal in your stocking for your forum naughtiness.

These AI changes are an excellent example of how the developers are ignoring or even worsening problems in the majority of the game because they are fixated on the New Thing. Dungeon alert is basically meaningless for classes which are defensively strong, have good AOE damage and/or fast movement.

But rather than reviewing that problem, which trivialises so much of the game's content and makes for huge differences in class power for efficient play, they prefer to fiddle around with the AI to make stealth and ranged play less exploitable in reaper. I'm assuming that's why they're doing it, unless it's just Johnny Work Experience randomly adjusting AI settings when he's supposed to be getting the coffee instead.

Anyway, I would like to see mobs react more intelligently to ranged attacks and assassinations they can see, but what we have now is no good. Even though it looks like they have been doing some tweaking over the last couple of days it's still problematic.

Maybe what they should do instead is try to come up with an AI build which works for stealth and ranged play without it being stupidly unresponsive and get on the problem of changing how dungeon alert works so it is more equally punitive for different build types. And then, god forbid, test it thoroughly before putting it into production instead of just dumping it on us like an overflowing bedpan.

Thanks.

[HuneyMunster]

Blegh

I tried to solo EE Lords of Dust on my assassin, which I can normally do quite easily. Now? Not a chance. Every time I assassinate or get close to assassinating a mob I get a ton of aggro. Oh well. There's no such thing as stealth, scouting, or sneaking anymore. I have to rely on those 3k HP warlocks and maybe hope I'll get a kill in before they cleave everything to death.

RIP Assassin

Was planning on going back to assassin now Ive just about done all the past lives I wanted. But the changes seem the same or worse than when mob ai was changed so that if you assassinate a monster their friends auto spot you. Since that was fix it made assassins fun class to play again. With these new changes only viable classes will be those that have plenty of aoe attacks which assassins have none.

[Eliyse]

One of the big things about D&D is that there should be many ways to achieve an objective. Set a goal and let the players work out how to achieve it. That flexibility is not truly possible in a computer game compared to a human GM, but the principle should still be followed as much as possible.
The way that pulling is implemented now is the most inflexible it has ever been. @Cordovan - do not say that this has gone back to the way it used to be - there are long term players here who can (and have) call you out on it. To pull you must now be a character with stealth and bluff (and from what others have tested, very high levels of both). So the only characters you expect to be able to pulll now are rogues and bards who have maxed out those skills and geared up optimally?
So what do other classes do to pull a single enemy? Especially at low level? Because that is a valid playstyle that a part of your player-base want to experience. Where are the low level ray spells (so caster can have a chance to zap a monster without being seen) to "tag" an enemy so that it goes to caster without taking a large group with it? Where are the equivalent fighter feats (or skills, taunts) to enrage a single enemy so that it will charge at the taunter to engage in single combat without the rest of pack chasing along? As someone else described, a player-skill based game of "peek-a-boo" that exposed themselves to a single mob so only that one would investigate.
This is a game of options and very different people with very different playstyles. To remove a significant tactic (and yes, I agree that it does need changing) without giving flexible ways to achieve similar aims in more "realistic" ways, especially before a major holiday, is not ideal.
Combine that with the clusterfsck that is dungeon alert and there is no wonder why there are forumites complaining about the change.
This is now a small indie company that lives and dies by how it supports the people following it. Starting off by annoying a slew of your playerbase is not an auspicious opening.
My recommendation (for what it is worth) - back out this change and ensure that a similar playstyle is available flexibly to those that want to play slowly, tactically, picking apart a dungeon at their leisure. Make sure the tools are in place, available to most (if not all) classes, and clearly advertised as the way to be able to pull with players having the time to test them out before removing again the "ranged damage to pull" mechanism.
Finally, all the best to those in Standing Stone - I hope the new company works out well for all concerned.

[2pc2]

Alert Levels

With each alert level, an icon will appear to warn you that your enemies are becoming more and more aware of your presence.

Difficulty doesn't make a difference for the Dungeon Alert (Vargouille).
Weapons may deal only primary damage (weapons procs don't proc) (speculation).
Monsters receive boosts (Vargouille):
Saving throw: Up to +16
Ability score (STR, DEX, CON): Up to +24
AC and Attack bonus: Up to +16
Fortification: Up to +100%
Skills: Up to +24
Movement speed: Up to +20%
True Sight
Some Immunity to certain triggered effects

Boss Alert
Boss monsters in particular gain huge buff from this Dungeon Alert system. You can see "Boss Alert I" and so on description by examining them. Most noticeable effect of Boss Alert is buff to their AC. Melee players will have huge trouble hitting them with Orange and Red Alert. Carrying Destruction and Improved Destruction and other AC debuff for such case is recommended.

Another problem with red aleart is that it penalizes DC casting and physical damage dealers a lot while leaving basicly unaffected magical damage dealers, especially those who use spells/abilities that don't require DC check or when it's not very important.

If the alert if to be left that way, which I would not recommend ,they should add mobs some kind of magical fortification or resistance/immunity to make red alert penalty more equal for all kind of builds.

[nokowi]

@Cordovan - do not say that this has gone back to the way it used to be - there are long term players here who can (and have) call you out on it.

Yes, his statement shows a massive lack of understanding.

If he clarified that there are some more bug fixes to do, and how they would change things, he could try and argue that they intend to move towards the way things used to be.

More importantly, he should define "the way things used to be".

That's called design where you have specific metrics your update is trying to achieve - this also allows the proper feedback when the metrics have not been met.

[nokowi]

I love the new mechanic. I ran the temple of elemental evil today, and it draws out enemies from 2-3 rooms away.
Was great to just kill all 16 at a time instead of 4 battles of 4 enemies.

That makes sense, if you were unchallenged before the changes, the changes helped your AoE build get faster XP/min, something they were already best at.

Instead of making more builds playable, they push players towards an ever smaller and smaller play style and builds that many of us don't enjoy.

It looks like slavers was just our introduction to AoE or bust, and just the tip of the iceburg.

AoE builds have little interaction with individual mobs, so a screen full of 30 mobs is no different than 6 mobs. Mash those same buttons and hit heal when the bar gets low.

Want a game where you interact with mobs? "go find another game"

Zerg On!

[nokowi]

Alert Levels

With each alert level, an icon will appear to warn you that your enemies are becoming more and more aware of your presence.

Difficulty doesn't make a difference for the Dungeon Alert (Vargouille).
Weapons may deal only primary damage (weapons procs don't proc) (speculation).
Monsters receive boosts (Vargouille):
Saving throw: Up to +16
Ability score (STR, DEX, CON): Up to +24
AC and Attack bonus: Up to +16
Fortification: Up to +100%
Skills: Up to +24
Movement speed: Up to +20%
True Sight
Some Immunity to certain triggered effects

Boss Alert
Boss monsters in particular gain huge buff from this Dungeon Alert system. You can see "Boss Alert I" and so on description by examining them. Most noticeable effect of Boss Alert is buff to their AC. Melee players will have huge trouble hitting them with Orange and Red Alert. Carrying Destruction and Improved Destruction and other AC debuff for such case is recommended.

Another problem with red aleart is that it penalizes DC casting and physical damage dealers a lot while leaving basicly unaffected magical damage dealers, especially those who use spells/abilities that don't require DC check or when it's not very important.

If the alert if to be left that way, which I would not recommend ,they should add mobs some kind of magical fortification or resistance/immunity to make red alert penalty more equal for all kind of builds.

Red Alert is not the problem.

The problem is, through terrible U34.2 mechanics, not giving us the agro management to avoid it.

[Ellihor]

I am not saying it isn't a valid form of strategy, but invis zerging is not being used for anything more than avoiding to fight mobs and for efficiency in xp, farming chests, resources. people can call me dumb all they want, it doesn't phase me. I have yet to see in groups players suggesting to invis past mobs for anything more than to avoid fighting them. its a faster way, typically, to get what they want out of a quest.

And the point is?? What's next, sprint boost is cheesy?

yes, as I said, it is used for efficiency. it saves resources, limits the chance of death

No, no way it limits the chance of death. Usually it's the opposite: invis typically will get you killed more often than not. It's more dangerous to invis than to kill everything. That's why in quests like mirror or end of the road people always mess up when you invis. Like 90% of end of the road runs I asked the party to invis over half the party died and could not make it to the castle.

it would be more common in groups, but its not as much because not all players know how to avoid running past mobs that perform checks and how to deal with situations with Champions with True Seeing or failing mob checks.

Finally ou admitted you need more SKILL to invis than to just do smash everything.

[Ellihor]

You didn't get my point. The new mechanic may still need fixing, but in general it's making DDO more like how it was.

Don't think so. When it was "bugged" the game looked more like before it became "bugged" than how it is now.

[Ellihor]

I do not understand all your whine here. Now just nukenerf AOE from orbit and break cleaves and we get reaper mode w/o select button.

You always whined that DDO became too easy. Now the devs do something that makes DDO much harder to play (for certain builds) and you whine?

The problem is that it completely removes a playstyle. I can't play like that anymore. I used to LIKE playing like that. The heroic quests I most enjoyed were the ones you can invis. The chain I most like in heroics is diplomatic impunity chain, because you can invis all of it, except summerfield district.

The ones that I most hate are the ones you have to kill everything to proceed, on the other hand. I have no problem in completing any, so I can say it doesn't make things easier, just faster.

[Qhualor]

And the point is?? What's next, sprint boost is cheesy?

please stop with the strawman.

No, no way it limits the chance of death. Usually it's the opposite: invis typically will get you killed more often than not. It's more dangerous to invis than to kill everything. That's why in quests like mirror or end of the road people always mess up when you invis. Like 90% of end of the road runs I asked the party to invis over half the party died and could not make it to the castle.

you are doing it wrong than if its increasing your chance to die. the whole purpose of being invisible is so the mobs don't see you.

I always thought it was silly to invis End of the Road. True Seeing champs, traps that not all players know where they are and how to avoid, failed checks because players running too close to mobs and spiders will see you which eventually will cause alerts. at that point its a race to get to the shrine before the mobs hit you and you get slowed from the alert.

Finally ou admitted you need more SKILL to invis than to just do smash everything.

that's not what I said. read again.

[2pc2]

Red Alert is not the problem.

The problem is, through terrible U34.2 mechanics, not giving us the agro management to avoid it.

I didn't said the alert itself was the problem we have had red alert for many years and it was not a problem till now. But if they insist on making us pull red alert everytime we run invis or sneak past 10 mobs and we basicly have to run with alert all the time, then they should give the mobs some kind of magical resistance, immunity and/or fortification during alert, as the other types of damage have.

If the reson behind the change is to make things harder it makes no sense to make it harder for only certain builds or playstyles while leaving others ( the ones that were already dominating) untouched or even benefited by the change. That builds were pulling red alert before the changes on purpose to kill faster because it has no negative effect for their builds or the benefits (killing speed) compensate it, they kill as fast on red alert as they can do with no alert at all, because the penalties don't afect them.

[changelingamuck]

But if they insist on making us pull red alert everytime we run invis or sneak past 10 mobs and we basicly have to run with alert all the time

I don't think that sneaking (without assassinating) is being affected by this unless you're noticed.

As for the invis zerging, it is a cheesy tactic, IMO. Sneaking requires skill investment to do successfully. Invis-ing requires a handful for platinum for a scroll.

[2pc2]

I don't think that sneaking (without assassinating) is being affected by this unless you're noticed.

As for the invis zerging, it is a cheesy tactic, IMO. Sneaking requires skill investment to do successfully. Invis-ing requires a handful for platinum for a scroll.

You are going to be be noticed by some mobs when you open doors, pull lever, etc... And with this new broken mechanics that means insta-alert if there are any other mobs near.

Invis zerging is no more cheesy than running past 30 mobs till red alert and killing them all with 1 or 2 clicks because red alert gives you 0 penalty. Invis zerging is no more cheesy than spending a few bucks to skip entire lifes. Invis zerging is no more cheesy or efficient than running a warlock who don't give a f*** for red alert or how many mobs you pile.

I would undestand it if it was the only cheese used in the game, but it's not and it's not the more prollific or the one that need to be adressed the most, it was good to compensate the huge imbalance between certain classes who cant kill trash as fast as cheesy, and usually p2w, builds and classes.

You know, I don't see 1/3 of my server invis running in partys, I hardy see anyone doing that. On the other hand I see daily 1/3 of the players on my server playing warlocks and other heavy defenses + high AoE magical damage builds. They run past half the mobs in a dungeon to red alert use 2 spells and puff alert gone. Why would they use invis with that kind of power?

Would you agree with removing all that cheese from the game too? Or it's just the non P2W cheese that should be removed in your opinion? Maybe if they make invis scrolls cost TP you would be ok with it ?

[Ellihor]

please stop with the strawman.

These are 2 questions. How questions can be strawman?

you are doing it wrong than if its increasing your chance to die. the whole purpose of being invisible is so the mobs don't see you.

Now you want to teach me how to invis. Well you can follow the link below I have invis runs posted on a range of content, post something better so that I can learn from you god master!

I always thought it was silly to invis End of the Road.

Saying that is the same as admitting that you suck at invising, something that was obvious since the start, you just dropped the ball here. I love when people who don't have capability to do something very well call it cheesy, it's just so funny. Not a suprise you like this change.

that's not what I said. read again.

Hm? Read what you said again, I'd suggest:

not all players know how to avoid running past mobs that perform checks and how to deal with situations with Champions with True Seeing or failing mob checks.

[nokowi]

I didn't said the alert itself was the problem we have had red alert for many years and it was not a problem till now. But if they insist on making us pull red alert everytime we run invis or sneak past 10 mobs and we basicly have to run with alert all the time, then they should give the mobs some kind of magical resistance, immunity and/or fortification during alert, as the other types of damage have.

If the reson behind the change is to make things harder it makes no sense to make it harder for only certain builds or playstyles while leaving others ( the ones that were already dominating) untouched or even benefited by the change. That builds were pulling red alert before the changes on purpose to kill faster because it has no negative effect for their builds or the benefits (killing speed) compensate it, they kill as fast on red alert as they can do with no alert at all, because the penalties don't afect them.

They need to give us options to control agro, not "fix" red alert.

Red alert is intended for those that try and run past everything (which can be done without invis).

Current agro system WITHOUT red alert.

Player 1: Grab all agro from dungeon.
Player 2 run to end (unopposed) and kill boss

It still has a purpose.

Without it, the fastest run speed character runs to the end boss and finishes the quest.

With it, there is a penalty (movement speed being the biggest) for not clearing the red alert.

[2pc2]

They need to give us options to control agro, not "fix" red alert.

Red alert is intended for those that try and run past everything (which can be done without invis).

Current agro system WITHOUT red alert.

Player 1: Grab all agro from dungeon.
Player 2 run to end (unopposed) and kill boss

It still has a purpose.

Without it, the fastest run speed character runs to the end boss and finishes the quest.

With it, there is a penalty (movement speed being the biggest) for not clearing the red alert.

You seem to keep missing the point... In any of my posts did I ask for removing red alert. I just say that if they keep the broken agro mechanics as they are now then runing with alert will be the normal and they should change how it works because it penalizes highly 1 type of damage dealers while leaving others unaffected.

As it is now a magical damage dealer with enough speed can run to the boss with red alert and beat it with 0 penalty, while a pshysical damage dealer will be gazing half the time and not seeing a single crit for running with red alert to the boss, so, to me, makes sense to add some kind of magical damage penalty for running with alert. It was not that imprtant till now because running with alert was an exceptional situation but if now running with alert is the new normal then it just makes even more sense to give the mobs some kind of magical resitence in that situations as the other builds have.

[Ellihor]

They need to give us options to control agro, not "fix" red alert.

Red alert is intended for those that try and run past everything (which can be done without invis).

Current agro system WITHOUT red alert.

Player 1: Grab all agro from dungeon.
Player 2 run to end (unopposed) and kill boss

It still has a purpose.

Without it, the fastest run speed character runs to the end boss and finishes the quest.

With it, there is a penalty (movement speed being the biggest) for not clearing the red alert.

The solution is simple: they should just fix the bug that existed. The bug was that when you attacked a mob the others around were not aggroing. They should just have fixed that. That's not what they did.

I remember before the bug took place, when you hitted one of the bosses at end of von3 for example, the others would come. In that same time, it was possible to invis just as well as on the day before the last patch.

This aggro spreading mechanic they call a "fix" in U33.2 is totally new. It never happened before that a single champ with TS could cause red alert. This NEVER EVER HAPPENED. The "fix" is broken, because it's not a fix. They didn't fix the bug: instead, they created a new mechanic that nullifies the bug, but it's a terrible mechanic. Just roll it back and fix the bug, everyone be happy.

[nokowi]

You seem to keep missing the point... In any of my posts did I ask for removing red alert. I just say that if they keep the broken agro mechanics as they are now then runing with alert will be the normal and they should change how it works because it penalizes highly 1 type of damage dealers while leaving others unaffected.

As it is now a magical damage dealer with enough speed can run to the boss with red alert and beat it with 0 penalty, while a pshysical damage dealer will be gazing half the time and not seeing a single crit for running with red alert to the boss, so, to me, makes sense to add some kind of magical damage penalty for running with alert. It was not that imprtant till now because running with alert was an exceptional situation but if now running with alert is the new normal then it just makes even more sense to give the mobs some kind of magical resitence in that situations as the other builds have.

Making design changes around this broken mess of U34.2 would be a mistake.

If red alert is so prevalent that red alert penalties need a change, the game needs a redesign.

My points do override yours.

[nokowi]

The solution is simple: they should just fix the bug that existed. The bug was that when you attacked a mob the others around were not aggroing. They should just have fixed that. That's not what they did.

Agreed. We also agree that changing red alert mechanics would be unimportant with this change.

This aggro spreading mechanic they call a "fix" in U33.2 is totally new. It never happened before that a single champ with TS could cause red alert. This NEVER EVER HAPPENED. The "fix" is broken, because it's not a fix. They didn't fix the bug: instead, they created a new mechanic that nullifies the bug, but it's a terrible mechanic. Just roll it back and fix the bug, everyone be happy.

Yes and no, that TS champ would have auto spotted you, but not immediately agrod every mob within 50'.

They took broken U22 mechanics that caused this auto-agro to happen to rogues on assassinate, and after seeing how unpopular it was in U22, they gave it to everyone in 34.2.

Merry X-Mas!