Saving Throw Pass

[J1NG]

What you've proposed tackles just one issue under a larger series of issues that you are trying to address with your "Saving Throw Pass". And without tackling the other causes which send players into creating toons with dumped saves or pushing it to the max, all this will do is just push for another change elsewhere later on when it's found that it hasn't done much change at all in eleviating the issue; Players who dump saves will still dump saves and players who didn't will probably start dumping as well as their saves no longer protect them as well as having dumped them. Which is basically no real change here except make certain players with previously no fail saves to not bother, restricting builds that go for that theme (which also usually reduces their other defences, since it's not really possible to do everything).

I understand the math and can see why it might seem like something DDO should head towards. But I agree with Sev at this time that it's not right for DDO; certainly not without tackling the others issues that are related to it.

I'd propose a different approach is taken for now and new spells, effects and spell scripts are added into the game that will benefit players with greater spell/effect selection (that targets various different saves) and make things difficult for players when used by enemies as well. Especially since these spells/effects should (in theory) be added in future anyway.

J1NG

[BigErkyKid]

Exactly.

I believe Sev has forgotten that nearly every player said they didn't like one shots.

Players like me said they would accept them (some challenge is better than nothing).

We want to react and interact with the game we are playing.

Many new/casual players would say it's worse than nothing. (read any champion hate thread)


It's beyond me how this design for one shots (as the only form of challenge) can continue.

They are not understanding you.

Let me spell it our clearly.

THIS DOES NOT MAKE DIVINE GRACE MORE USEFUL OR REQUIRED.

On the contrary, it removes the blanket immunity that it provides. Currently we can build toons that are simply invulnerable to a whole lot of things:

danced / held / stunned / tripped / paralyzed / stoned / assassinated / rotted by a powerful disease / cursed

But in DnD those are some of the main sources of damage, and the more interesting ones. Pure raw damage is the most boring way to kill us, and that is exclusively what reaper is.

[nokowi]

What you've proposed tackles just one issue under a larger series of issues that you are trying to address with your "Saving Throw Pass". And without tackling the other causes which send players into creating toons with dumped saves or pushing it to the max, all this will do is just push for another change elsewhere later on when it's found that it hasn't done much change at all in eleviating the issue; Players who dump saves will still dump saves and players who didn't will probably start dumping as well as their saves no longer protect them as well as having dumped them. Which is basically no real change here except make certain players with previously no fail saves to not bother, restricting builds that go for that theme (which also usually reduces their other defences, since it's not really possible to do everything).

I understand the math and can see why it might seem like something DDO should head towards. But I agree with Sev at this time that it's not right for DDO; certainly not without tackling the others issues that are related to it.

I'd propose a different approach is taken for now and new spells, effects and spell scripts are added into the game that will benefit players with greater spell/effect selection (that targets various different saves) and make things difficult for players when used by enemies as well. Especially since these spells/effects should (in theory) be added in future anyway.

J1NG

Clearly this design team is not capable of rational design (where build choices matter, and challenge can't be circumvented).

I can't do much more than spell out that my proposal accomplishes both of these, and the current system does not.

You weren't able to disprove either of these statements, and your vague "impression" of no change shows how little you really understand.

I never expected much from the forumites --> their demands have produced the awful state of the game prior to reaper.

I do expect better from a design team trying to take control of their product.

Sevs solution is to make saves worthless --> hardly a winning design concept.

[J-mann]

They are not understanding you.

Let me spell it our clearly.

THIS DOES NOT MAKE DIVINE GRACE MORE USEFUL OR REQUIRED.

On the contrary, it removes the blanket immunity that it provides. Currently we can build toons that are simply invulnerable to a whole lot of things:



But in DnD those are some of the main sources of damage, and the more interesting ones. Pure raw damage is the most boring way to kill us, and that is exclusively what reaper is.

One shots will just push us to ranged toons more and more. The AI in this game is bad, and cannot handle kiting by players well (if at all). I have long said that the devs are going about the challenge the wrong way, the proper way would be to bring it back to more of its roots by LOWERING mob damage, LOWERING pc healing potential, ADDING relevant effects (and not, oh you got held... oh well your dead), and challenging the party to expend its resources in more than just playing gauntlet.

[BigErkyKid]

One shots will just push us to ranged toons more and more. The AI in this game is bad, and cannot handle kiting by players well (if at all). I have long said that the devs are going about the challenge the wrong way, the proper way would be to bring it back to more of its roots by LOWERING mob damage, LOWERING pc healing potential, ADDING relevant effects (and not, oh you got held... oh well your dead), and challenging the party to expend its resources in more than just playing gauntlet.

Absolutely.

But it is easy to recover. I am playing a pure animal form Druid a tad undergeared at the moment. It is not completely useless, but I have no saves gear on at the moment and hence saves suck. For those who wonder, I'm doing. This to provide a review of the class.

So, I wiped my solo prison of planes ee. I kept being paralyzed and danced and killed. Had I been a robot, or used the proper gear, and the challenge would be gone. I know because I have done it plenty of times on other toons.

That felt a lot more interesting than silly 1 shots. The truth is that he deva have granted us immunities and then they don't know how to kill us. Instead then they resort to infant like games if I touch you, you die. That's cheesy as heck. Allow people to be affected by other things than raw damage and you got your challenge back. That's the proper reaper.

[Anaximandroz]

danced / held / stunned / tripped / paralyzed / stoned / rotted by a powerful disease / cursed are way better challenge then just oneshot and a incentive to group. But we must be able to build to save, not like the artys in secret of artificers.

[BigErkyKid]

danced / held / stunned / tripped / paralyzed / stoned / rotted by a powerful disease / cursed are way better challenge then just oneshot and a incentive to group. But we must be able to build to save, not like the artys in secret of artificers.

No one is suggesting otherwise. Whereas if you want to play reaper in top difficulties, either you invest everything into CON+tankiness or you may as well have 1 CON, a mob breathing in your direction 1 shots you. That you cannot build for, at all.

Mobs using far more frequently CC+powerful heals, coupled with lower immunity in our end (we fail saves, no more items that negate effects) would provide plenty of challenge.

[nokowi]

danced / held / stunned / tripped / paralyzed / stoned / rotted by a powerful disease / cursed are way better challenge then just oneshot and a incentive to group. But we must be able to build to save, not like the artys in secret of artificers.

Agreed.

I feel that this is the general consensus.

My worry is that when Sev gets positive (hopefully) feedback from reaper, and he will confuse the success of having a place with challenge and teamwork vs having a system that players 1 year from now will be happy with.

In the short term (3-6 months), almost ANYTHING is better than what we have outside of reaper (which is nearly nothing for teamwork and challenge).

In the longer term, having damage spikes as the only means of challenge will result in a much more limited sets of builds that work in reaper, and a big possibility of "broken" builds that perform much better than anything else, and can't be balanced both within reaper "broken" and outside of reaper "not broken".

A system with multiple forms of challenge makes it MUCH easier for devs to ensure players can't circumvent all challenge, and in a way that provides many many successful builds. It gives us many more *effective* build options.

It's a win-win situation for players and devs, it just takes enough understanding on the dev side to make this a priority.

Giving the lag between design and implementation, now is the time it needs to be addressed.

Give us 3-6 months of reaper (only damage spikes), and begin work on additional forms of challenge NOW.

[changelingamuck]

Clearly this design team is not capable of rational design

This doesn't really promote a continued healthy discussion with the design team.

[nokowi]

This doesn't really promote a continued healthy discussion with the design team.

And how does your post?

I've spent 3+ years talking about designing the game with challenge in a way that fits the maximum number of play styles.

Deaf Ears has been the result.

When you have devoted 1/2 the effort I have, you can criticize this post.


Maybe you will understand that the exact same arguments applied to the AC pass apply to saving throws.

1. A wider range of values become useful
2. Players can't build around challenge (hit only on a 20 in the old AC system, building past no fail in the current system)
3. Improving the ability now matters for a much larger proportion of builds


If these were good enough arguments for an AC pass, why are they not good enough for saving throws being useful?

Do devs really think a majority of DDO players prefer large damage spikes?