Saving Throw Pass

[nokowi]

While it's OK for players to achieve the state where their abilities never fail, mobs should never reach the state where they can not challenge players. Thus a saving throw pass is needed to ensure mobs can affect players:

*** Mob damage spikes should be reduced now that there is save based challenge.


1. Chance of MOB Spell Effecting a Player = 1 - (Player Save/(2*Mob DC))

*** No change in the way player abilities affect Mobs --> this is solely to make sure mobs can affect players.

Player Save = 50

Mob DC = 25 or less: 0% of spells land
Mob DC = 30: 16.7% of spells land
Mob DC = 40: 37.5% of spells land
Mob DC = 50: 50.0% of spells land
Mob DC = 60: 58.3% of spells land
Mob DC = 70: 64.3% of spells land
Mob DC = 80: 68.8% of spells land
Mob DC = 90: 72.2% of spells land
Mob DC = 100: 75.0% of spells land

The current abilities (no fail save on a 1) are changed to a reroll (like slippery mind).
Saving Throw Boost (class/racial) ability could give you a reroll within its duration.

Players say insta-kill isn't as good as AoE with DPS, but this change would make them fill a nice role (nuke caster!).
Even single target cc is now useful.

Players still have spell absorption to negate save based challenge for brief periods of time.


This curve probably needs a low level correction: 1 - ((Player Save+X)/(2*Mob DC+Y))


Note that #1 is the most stable with power creep --> and is this probably the best answer in terms of game design with limited resources.

[Severlin]

Other than the modest increase in saving throw difficulty Reaper already provides, we don't plan to increase difficulty by making players fail more saving throws. If the Dispel system was more robust then players could act to mitigate the issue of missed saving throws, but players don't have enough tools to mitigate effects that require saving throws for us to plan difficulty around that metric.

Sev~

[nokowi]

Other than the modest increase in saving throw difficulty Reaper already provides, we don't plan to increase difficulty by making players fail more saving throws. If the Dispel system was more robust then players could act to mitigate the issue of missed saving throws, but players don't have enough tools to mitigate effects that require saving throws for us to plan difficulty around that metric.

Sev~

Sad to hear. Spell Absorption?

Many players don't have tools to design around being one-shot in the content they choose to run.

Creating tiers of what works and what doesn't work (all or none) upsets newer players, and allows vets to build around challenge.

You could simply lower the rate of DC spells from casters if it is a problem (using mostly DPS spells).

[Severlin]

Sad to hear. Spell Absorption?

Many players don't have tools to design around being one-shot in the content they choose to run.

Having a tank, using CC, or kiting are all effective methods outside increasing your statistical mitigation. There are many way to mitigate damage through game play that don't exist for saving throw based effects.

Creating tiers of what works and what doesn't work (all or none) upsets newer players, and allows vets to build around challenge.

You could simply lower the rate of DC spells from casters if it is a problem (using mostly DPS spells).

We also don't want to create the perception that the Paladin's Divine Grace a requirement; if players felt that was the case it would severely limit build options.

Sev~

[Enoach]

Sad to hear. Spell Absorption?

Many players don't have tools to design around being one-shot in the content they choose to run.

Creating tiers of what works and what doesn't work (all or none) upsets newer players, and allows vets to build around challenge.

You could simply lower the rate of DC spells from casters if it is a problem (using mostly DPS spells).

While I think I get where you are going, I actually think DC spells are the equalizers vs HP. I actually feel mobs use fewer DC type spells to render players helpless or even less effective then they should. DPS is good, but then all a player needs to do is build for PRR and HP. This prevents creating a system where a more balanced character is well off.

My only issue with the Dispel system in DDO has to do with calculating Caster Level on Mobs. In theory the Caster Level of a Mob and Player should top out at 20, but even if it is higher that higher should be possible on both sides. This is part of the reason why Spell Resistance on the Mob side makes things harder on players and for players makes it require some huge number to be better then 5%.

[nokowi]

I appreciate the responses.

Having a tank, using CC, or kiting are all effective methods outside increasing your statistical mitigation. There are many way to mitigate damage through game play that don't exist for saving throw based effects.

The only form of challenge players receive is being one-shot. Reaper simply ensures this can happen.

Only one form of challenge makes some builds vastly better than others.

We also don't want to create the perception that the Paladin's Divine Grace a requirement; if players felt that was the case it would severely limit build options.
Sev~

What you have now makes divine grace more important. That's why you had to nerf it.

+40 to all saves (endgame) only resulted in something like 15% better save mitigation in my proposal.

Currently it ensures 0 save based challenge.

[nokowi]

While I think I get where you are going, I actually think DC spells are the equalizers vs HP. I actually feel mobs use fewer DC type spells to render players helpless or even less effective then they should. DPS is good, but then all a player needs to do is build for PRR and HP. This prevents creating a system where a more balanced character is well off.

You are agreeing with my statements here, other than I am saying DC challenge SHOULD exist for all players (and does not).

I haven't worried about saves since U28 (on a rogue with poor fort and will saves), although I haven't experienced Slavers.

[Enoach]

You are agreeing with my statements here, other than I am saying DC challenge SHOULD exist for all players (and does not).

I haven't worried about saves since U28 (on a rogue with poor fort and will saves), although I haven't experienced Slavers.

If you agree with me that using abilities that target our Fortitude and Will saves is lacking and should be utilized more then yes we are in agreement. As I am one that finds it sad that you can ignore two saves in favor of one save and PRR.

[nokowi]

If you agree with me that using abilities that target our Fortitude and Will saves is lacking and should be utilized more then yes we are in agreement. As I am one that finds it sad that you can ignore two saves in favor of one save and PRR.

We have builds with 100+ for all saves, so no I don't find this to be as important as challenging all (not some) builds.

I don't currently often fail my poor saves, so I don't see how this adds challenge to those that need it.

Two saves makes Divine Grace more important. All you are doing is making the divide between what works and doesn't work even bigger.

My proposal makes it less important (but still useful).

+8 is +40% to all save chances.

+8 in my proposal is way less than that, and never reaches no fail.

[nokowi]

ReaPR

Ranged
Passification
Resilient

... Others Need Not Apply ...

[Tilomere]

del

[BigErkyKid]

Other than the modest increase in saving throw difficulty Reaper already provides, we don't plan to increase difficulty by making players fail more saving throws. If the Dispel system was more robust then players could act to mitigate the issue of missed saving throws, but players don't have enough tools to mitigate effects that require saving throws for us to plan difficulty around that metric.

Sev~

I think you are reading the proposal wrong.

Nowadays, due to power creep, saves differences between builds / player gear can be gigantic. This leads to situations were some toons are invulnerable to anything save based and others don't even bother with saves.

The possibility of being danced / held / stunned / tripped / paralyzed / stoned / assassinated / rotted by a powerful disease / cursed adds a lot of challenge to the game. However, through buffs in gear (FoM, DW, etc.), race/class immunities, and player saves skyrocketing all those sources of challenge have been erased from the game.

If you could do that to toons, you wouldn't need to one-shot us to create challenge.

[LavidDynch]

I like this proposal. More of this and the game wouldn't need to re-invent itself to module 2 again...

[Mr_Helmet]

We also don't want to create the perception that the Paladin's Divine Grace a requirement; if players felt that was the case it would severely limit build options.

Sev~

Thank you.

[dennisharlien]

I don't know what to say to this other than WOW. What you are proposing here would cause saves to be irrelevant for the most part. I do understand what your saying about trying to remove the auto saves but that is not every build in fact I would argue its a lower percentage of builds. Doing something like this would simply cause a narrowing of builds. What I mean by that is building into saves at all would be almost pointless so people would only build hit points and ignore saves (like most do Armour right now). When you remove options you narrow builds not the other way around.

[nokowi]

Some high end trips can't really be saved against.

They could with my formula. You need 1/2 the DC to get a chance of saving.

The formula is also not set in stone --> it could be tweaked and is an example of a system that works (build choices matter, you can't completely negate challenge).

If you are too squishy, you die before you get up as well.

Damage is reduced, so you get a chance for someone to heal you, or to make that extra save since you survive longer.

Do you understand that there will be 6 con reaper builds? This is worse than the joke of everyone running around in heavy armor in days past.

Having +100 all saves doesn't protect you from everything. Like a triple hit from a troll champion.

Note that some builds are much more affected by this sole form of challenge. If your ranged character gets triple hit, he/she has usually play skill issues.


In my proposal save of 100 protects you completely from DC 50 or less.

vs DC 60 you fail 17% of the time. Build for a 2nd save chance, and you fail less than 3% of the time
vs DC 100 you fail 50% of the time. Build for a 2nd save chance, and you fail less than 25% of the time

When you do fail, damage spikes are much lower. Low enough to get another save attempt, get a heal from another player, etc.

Note that I also wanted saving throw boosts to give you a 2nd save chance --> even if you don't take the (no fail on 1 ability that is now a 2nd save chance).

The difference is you get to respond to the game instead of auto dying from a one-shot, and that all builds are challenged by saves.

[nokowi]

I don't know what to say to this other than WOW. What you are proposing here would cause saves to be irrelevant for the most part.

You have a basic lack of comprehension.

Put a range of DC's on the mobs with my proposal, and saves are always useful, at any level.


Saves are CURRENTLY irrelevant for anyone who builds a good toon.

[nokowi]

Thank you.

Can nobody on the forums understand that +40 to saves (+200% chance of save) is much more than what divine grace gives with my proposal (closer to 15%)?


The whole point of divine grace should be that paladins are better at saves (but in my opinion should not be immune to this challenge).

Currently divine grace makes you immune to save challenge.

[nokowi]

I think you are reading the proposal wrong.

Nowadays, due to power creep, saves differences between builds / player gear can be gigantic. This leads to situations were some toons are invulnerable to anything save based and others don't even bother with saves.

The possibility of being danced / held / stunned / tripped / paralyzed / stoned / assassinated / rotted by a powerful disease / cursed adds a lot of challenge to the game. However, through buffs in gear (FoM, DW, etc.), race/class immunities, and player saves skyrocketing all those sources of challenge have been erased from the game.

If you could do that to toons, you wouldn't need to one-shot us to create challenge.

Exactly.

I believe Sev has forgotten that nearly every player said they didn't like one shots.

Players like me said they would accept them (some challenge is better than nothing).

We want to react and interact with the game we are playing.

Many new/casual players would say it's worse than nothing. (read any champion hate thread)


It's beyond me how this design for one shots (as the only form of challenge) can continue.

[Mr_Helmet]

You're argument is deader than Harambe, keep going though as it's amusing watching you get worked up.