Full Paladin and Fighter Defender Tree Update Idea.

[Grimreich]

Beating this dead horse. This is a full concept of what I'd like to see for full defender tanks to make them viable in-game as something other than intimidation bots.

I'm doing this from the standpoint that any other class build can be made in a way that allows for effective competence in most content based on kiting to avoid damage, self healing and/or being able to deal at least enough damage to wear down opponents. Full tanks, in the best of circumstances, lack the damage to wear down most opponents before either dying in harder content or simply fighting for ages against a self-healing opponent otherwise. Typically, you have to focus damage with tankiness being a limited secondary to be any kind of competent. A full 41 points in an offensive tree based around a shield, but otherwise has 2 very minor bonuses to defense, to be a "tank" is ridiculous.



Fighter Stalwart Defender

Core Enhancements:

1. Toughness - Stays the same

2. Stalwart Defense - Toggle stance: +10 PRR and MRR, 50% melee threat generation plus an additional 10% for each core enhancement taken in the tree.

3. Overbalance (Currently requires at least 31 points in Vanguard to reach maximum effectiveness or standing still, reduced damage and the hope of good RNG on the shield bash attack animation) - Changed to: While wielding a shield, you put more weight into your weapon attacks. You gain 5% armor piercing while wielding a Buckler, 10% while wielding a Small Shield, 15% while wielding a Large Shield and 25% while wielding a Tower Shield.

4. Stand Fast - Shield Action Boost: You become a one person phalanx, gaining immunity to fear, Holds and Knockdowns and take 10% less damage from all sources for 20 seconds.

5. Defensive Sweep: Perform an AoE trip (maybe with shield) that knocks down opponents in an arch with a DC = trip DC. (If shield trip: Damage = shield damage.) CD 30 seconds. Increases tactical feat DCs by 1 per core enhancement in this tree.

6. Passive: You gain +4 Strength/ +4 Con, +2 DCs of tactical feats, 10 MRR/PRR, 20% HEALING AMP AND 20 MELEE POWER

Tier 1

Item Defense - Same.
Threatening Demeanor - 25%/50%/75% melee threat generation. 1AP per tier.
Improved Stalwart Defense - Same
Armor Expertise - +3/6/10 Armor Class. 1 AP per tier.
Defense Boost - 25% stacking dodge boost that ignores MDB for 20 secs.

Tier 2

Instinctive Defense - Same
Shield Expertise - +10/20/30% Shield AC Bonus. 1 point per tier.
Stalwart Shield Mastery - +1/2/3 Enhancement bonus on shields, MDB for Tower Shields, -1/2/3 armor check penalty for shields and -0/1/2 attack penalty for Tower Shields. 2 AP per tier.
Improved Stalwart Defense - Same
Enhanced Stalwart Defense - Choose 1 one of: +5/10/15% healing amp, +2/4/6 Intimidate, 3/6/10 PRR/MRR. While in Stalwart Defense and wearing heavy armor and wielding a shield. 1 AP per tier.

Tier 3

Stalwart Defense Mastery - +1/2/3 Enhancement Bonus on armor, dodge, MDB, -1/2/3 armor check penalty for armor. AP cost increased to 2 per tier. --- Pre-requisite: Stalwart Shield Master
Enhanced Stalwart Defense - Choose 1 one of: +5/10/15% healing amp, +2/4/6 Intimidate, 3/6/10 PRR/MRR. While in Stalwart Defense and wearing medium or heavy armor and wielding a shield. 1 AP per tier.
Improved Stalwart Defense - Same
Greater Stalwart Defense - Same
CON/STR/CHA/DEX

Tier 4

Counterattack - When missed while blocking your next weapon attack gains +1/3/5 [W] damage. (High, because if you're otherwise defending, you're doing less DPS, this will help make up for that, give a defender something to do and allow for an active ability with something of a skill curve for players who are interested.)

Swift Defense - Same
Enhanced Stalwart Defense - Choose 1 one of: +5/10/15% healing amp, +2/4/6 Intimidate, 3/6/10 PRR/MRR. While in Stalwart Defense and wearing medium or heavy armor and wielding a shield. 1 AP per tier.
Greater Stalwart Defense - Same
CON/STR/CHA/DEX

Tier 5

Greater Stalwart Defense - Same
Swift Offense - +3/6/10% Combat Style Bonus to attack speed and 2/4/6% double strike chance while wearing heavy armor and wielding a shield. 2 AP per tier. --- Pre-requisite: Swift Defense
Reinforced Defense - +10/20/30% Armor Class Bonus from Armor and Shields, 3/6/10 stacking elemental damage resistance. 2 AP per tier.
Stalwart Vigor - Every 20/15/10 attacks while wielding a shield restores 1/2/3 HP per Fighter level scaling with melee power. 2 AP per tier.



Paladin Sacred Defender

Core Enhancements:

1. Holy bastion - Same

2. Sacred Defense - Toggle stance: +10 PRR and MRR, 50% melee threat generation plus an additional 10% for each core enhancement taken in the tree.

3. Divine Righteousness - Activate while wielding a shield to add +1 light damage to your attacks equal to your Charisma Modifier for 20 seconds. 60 second CD. Scales with Melee Power.

4. Redemption - Same

5. Glorious Stand - Passive: Gain +1 to the DC of all tactical feats for each core enhancements in this tree additionally adds +4 to saves vs fear for allies effected by your aura. Active Shield Boost: Become immune to all knock downs, gain +200% to melee threat generation, 10% dodge that ignores MDB for 20 seconds.

6. +4 CHA/ +4 CON, +10 MRR/PRR, +25% Healing Amp, +15 Melee Power, +40 range of unconsciousness and Eternal Defender Toggle.


Tier 1

Item Defense - Same
Extra Lay on Hands - Same
Improved Sacred Defense - Same
Damage Reduction Boost - Take 20% reduced damage from all sources for 20 seconds. 1 AP per tier.
Supplemental Healing - +5/10/15 Positive Energy Spell Power. 1 AP per tier.

Tier 2

Instinctive Defense - Same
Bulwark Aura - 3/6/10 Armor Class bonus to aura. 1 AP per tier.
Improved Sacred Defense - Same
Enhanced Sacred Defense - Choose One of: +3/6/10 to resisting knock downs, 1/3/5 to the DCs of tactical feats or 1/3/5 attack while in Sacred Defense Stance,wearing heavy armor and wielding a shield. 1 AP per tier.
Sacred Shield Mastery - +1/2/3 Enhancement bonus on shields and weapons and -1/2/3 armor check penalty for shields. 2 AP per tier.

Tier 3

Resistance Aura - Same
Improved Sacred Defense - Same
Enhanced Sacred Defense - Choose One of: +3/6/10 to resisting knock downs, 1/3/5 to the DCs of tactical feats or 1/3/5 attack while in Sacred Defense Stance, wearing heavy armor and wielding a shield. 1 AP per tier.
Greater Sacred Defense - Same
CHA/CON

Tier 4




Swift Defense - Same
Deific Shielding - Gain 5/10/15 stacking spell resistance. 2 AP per tier.
Enhanced Sacred Defense - Choose One of: +3/6/10 to resisting knock downs, 1/3/5 to the DCs of tactical feats or 1/3/5 attack while in Sacred Defense Stance, wearing heavy armor and wielding a shield. 1 AP per tier.
Greater Sacred Defense - Same
CHA/CON

Tier 5

Swift Offense - +3/6/10% Combat Style Bonus to attack speed and 2/4/6% double strike chance while wearing heavy armor and wielding a shield. 2 AP per tier. --- Pre-requisite: Swift Defense
Harbored By Light - Same
Greater Sacred Defense - Same

Cry of the Righteous - Deity based effect. Expend use of Turn Undead. Cry out in the name of your deity or pantheon to produce an effect in their name.
Aureon - Improved Turn Undead attempt. Turn DC = 2d6 + CHA + Full Paladin level + 1 + any additional effects (Improved Turn Undead Feat excluded) CD 60 secs.

Vol - Sap health from nearby foes. AoE effect sapping 1d2 per religious lore feat HP from enemies with within your paladin aura. Save 10 + Paladin Level + CON or CHA (Whichever's Higher) halves effect. CD 3 minutes

Silver Flame - Activate to release a series of 3 arrows made of holy fire. Each arrow deals 3d3+3 damage per religious lore feat. Scales off Positive Energy spell power and Ranged Power. (Not really sure on the strength of this, but it's to set the idea.) Each arrow casts a banishing attempt on extraplanar targets. CD 60 secs.

Sovereign Host - Activate to emit a host of buffs for a number of seconds equal to 3X your Religious Lore feats in seconds and consisting of Fire Shield (Fire), True Seeing, Greater Heroism, False Life, Displacement, Shield, Night Shield, Good Hope and Freedom of Movement for you and everyone in your aura. CD 4 minutes.

Vulkoor - Activate to cast an obscuring poison cloud effect combining effects of Incendiary Cloud, Cloudkill, Fog Cloud, Stinking Cloud, Solid Fog and Acid Fog effects for a duration of 3X your Religious Lore feats in seconds. CD 4 minutes.

Helm - Activate for a Divine Might tier 3 effect.

Onatar - Activate to have whatever weapon you wield benefit from any feat or enhancement that benefits the weapon of your deity and gain +1 fire damage on weapon attacks per Religious Lore feat scaling off melee power and fire spell power for a duration of 3X your Religious Lore feats in seconds. CD 4 minutes.

Silvanus - Activate to produce a spiritual maul that swings itself around you 360 degrees in a mighty cleave effect. Adding +.25 weapon dice per Religious Lore feat to damage. Also produces on-hit effects. CD 30 secs.

Olladra - Activate to heal for an amount equal to one of your ability scores at random and gain Fire damage to weapon attacks equal to another ability score at random for a duration equal to 3X Religious Lore feats in seconds. CD 30 secs.

Lord of Blades - Activate to produce a hold effect in the form of chains to any applicable fleshy creature within your aura effect. DC 10 + CHA + Religious Lore feats. For a duration equal to your Religious Lore feats. CD 4 minutes.

Amaunator - Activate to reset the CDs of any spells or abilities. Also add a duration to any existing buffs equal to 3X for a duration in the amount of Religious Lore feats in seconds. CD 4 minutes.

Undying Call - Activate to extend the range of Unconsciousness to yourself an any ally in the effect of your aura for an amount of HP equal to 3X your Religious Lore feats for a duration equal to 3X your Religious Lore feats in seconds. CD 1 minute.

I really feel this will round out the trees. Maybe make them a bit more fun. At least offer something to think about as far as direction options go.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

i think the proposed change to defense boost is super powerful, but a good idea. not sure whether it should remain in t1 if its a 25% dodge boost, since then its very strong and very low hanging fruit for kensei builds, but also makes a small fighter splash a compelling choice for some mc builds that otherwise wouldnt.

imo counter attack is still too weak. its not strong enough to warrant blocking (and reducing ones dps) to use it, nor is it strong enough to stop blocking (and reducing ones dps) in the event that blocking is actually preferable or necessary. it should be when missed while blocking a single attack with +40 mp or perhaps more and maybe +1 crit multi or something along those lines.

stalwart vigor i dont like and makes no sense to me, id scrap it. id rather buff reprisal somehow. for example, remove the stack limit and cd, and make it +1 dmg and +1 mp per stack.

i think giving paladin damage reduction boost instead of defense boost along with various other differences would be highly interesting, and i like it. especially since the way you have it set up, the pally is more self sufficient but not really a true top shelf tank like fighter would be.

also, scrap swift offense. its just vanguard stuff and i dont think it is appropriate or necessary. these trees are supposed to be about high defensive stats and aggro management first and foremost. stalwart gaining some situational dps gains is one thing, but imo it should be done through the methods i stated above; stalwart also having moderate to high focus on tactics and the best aggro generation is also appropriate. paladin having the heals and saves and aura should be sufficient to round out the scope of that tree.

[Grimreich]

i think the proposed change to defense boost is super powerful, but a good idea. not sure whether it should remain in t1 if its a 25% dodge boost, since then its very strong and very low hanging fruit for kensei builds, but also makes a small fighter splash a compelling choice for some mc builds that otherwise wouldnt.

imo counter attack is still too weak. its not strong enough to warrant blocking (and reducing ones dps) to use it, nor is it strong enough to stop blocking (and reducing ones dps) in the event that blocking is actually preferable or necessary. it should be when missed while blocking a single attack with +40 mp or perhaps more and maybe +1 crit multi or something along those lines.

stalwart vigor i dont like and makes no sense to me, id scrap it. id rather buff reprisal somehow. for example, remove the stack limit and cd, and make it +1 dmg and +1 mp per stack.

i think giving paladin damage reduction boost instead of defense boost along with various other differences would be highly interesting, and i like it. especially since the way you have it set up, the pally is more self sufficient but not really a true top shelf tank like fighter would be.

also, scrap swift offense. its just vanguard stuff and i dont think it is appropriate or necessary. these trees are supposed to be about high defensive stats and aggro management first and foremost. stalwart gaining some situational dps gains is one thing, but imo it should be done through the methods i stated above; stalwart also having moderate to high focus on tactics and the best aggro generation is also appropriate. paladin having the heals and saves and aura should be sufficient to round out the scope of that tree.

Thanks for the feedback.

Your points are actually the things I was struggling with most. I wasn't sure of how to balance Counter-Attack.

Stalwart Vigor was just an idea for fighters to get a little bit of self-healing in a format that wasn't just a straight copy/paste from some other class's means of doing the same. I don't like it, either. It's more of a placeholder to show that fighters could use that function.

The defense boost is really early. I originally had it tier 3 and that still felt early, but I figure it's 20 seconds and regardless of when you get it, it's going to scale pretty much the same. So, I put it in where I there was a spot unfilled.

I felt the fighter only getting the 2 additional tactical feat DCs in the enhancement tree was alright, because they get the feats + generally have higher strength.

Swift Offense I put in, because they do really need a slight increase to damage and attack speed is the most satisfying to me. It allows for a damage increase that scales with gear, which I feel helps to emphasize the importance of gearing properly and the base attack animation speed just seems so slow, now. I really don't like the idea of being reliant on Vanguard.

I feel Vanguard is implemented poorly. It's a damage based tree reliant on a shield. The only defensive bonuses in it are a few AC and Fortitude saves. It requires you to use a shield, which, late game, is a really small addition to defense on its own. I feel it tricks people. They'd be better off doing a dual wield build that can self-heal. If they wanted to make tanks have viable offense, then they should have given actual tanks viable offense.

[HastyPudding]

For the record, I rather enjoy vanguard and believe it's a strong compromise between defense and offense. But, I've tried both a pure defender and a pure vanguard fighter, and I have to say the dps you give up is leaps and bounds greater than the small amount of defenses you give up by not going tier 5/capstone in defender.

In my opinion, defender needs to be all-out defense. In a lot of other games, if you give up offense, you are gaining a large bonus to defense. And, I mean large. I say if we're going to have defender (which will probably be useful in reaper mode) let's dispense with the 'trade a little offense for a little defense' and go all out on it. Defenders need enhancements like 'reduce your attack speed by 20% but gain 50 PRR' or 'your movement speed is reduced by 10% for 10 seconds but you gain a +30% bonus to AC'. Things like that. Make yourself extremely durable and able to take hits in reaper mode, but you have to rely on intimidate and like abilities to hold aggro. You know, like a real MMO where tanks are useful.

The sentinel destiny could also use a revamp. It's entirely too focused on good-this-good-that-smite-that-enemy junk that belongs in divine crusader. There's only TWO enhancements in the entire tree that affect shields when the destiny itself says it provides absolute mastery over shields. If we're going to come out with reaper mode, I say remodel the defender trees and the sentinel destiny to be all-out defense.

[Grimreich]

For the record, I rather enjoy vanguard and believe it's a strong compromise between defense and offense. But, I've tried both a pure defender and a pure vanguard fighter, and I have to say the dps you give up is leaps and bounds greater than the small amount of defenses you give up by not going tier 5/capstone in defender.

In my opinion, defender needs to be all-out defense. In a lot of other games, if you give up offense, you are gaining a large bonus to defense. And, I mean large. I say if we're going to have defender (which will probably be useful in reaper mode) let's dispense with the 'trade a little offense for a little defense' and go all out on it. Defenders need enhancements like 'reduce your attack speed by 20% but gain 50 PRR' or 'your movement speed is reduced by 10% for 10 seconds but you gain a +30% bonus to AC'. Things like that. Make yourself extremely durable and able to take hits in reaper mode, but you have to rely on intimidate and like abilities to hold aggro. You know, like a real MMO where tanks are useful.

The sentinel destiny could also use a revamp. It's entirely too focused on good-this-good-that-smite-that-enemy junk that belongs in divine crusader. There's only TWO enhancements in the entire tree that affect shields when the destiny itself says it provides absolute mastery over shields. If we're going to come out with reaper mode, I say remodel the defender trees and the sentinel destiny to be all-out defense.

I wasn't proposing trade offs. I was proposing that defenders get just enough damage to kill self-healing enemies on their own when necessary in addition to some defensive buffs. Also, if they start balancing around reaper mode, it would completely defeat the purpose of reaper mode.

[Qhualor]

For the record, I rather enjoy vanguard and believe it's a strong compromise between defense and offense. But, I've tried both a pure defender and a pure vanguard fighter, and I have to say the dps you give up is leaps and bounds greater than the small amount of defenses you give up by not going tier 5/capstone in defender.

In my opinion, defender needs to be all-out defense. In a lot of other games, if you give up offense, you are gaining a large bonus to defense. And, I mean large. I say if we're going to have defender (which will probably be useful in reaper mode) let's dispense with the 'trade a little offense for a little defense' and go all out on it. Defenders need enhancements like 'reduce your attack speed by 20% but gain 50 PRR' or 'your movement speed is reduced by 10% for 10 seconds but you gain a +30% bonus to AC'. Things like that. Make yourself extremely durable and able to take hits in reaper mode, but you have to rely on intimidate and like abilities to hold aggro. You know, like a real MMO where tanks are useful.

The sentinel destiny could also use a revamp. It's entirely too focused on good-this-good-that-smite-that-enemy junk that belongs in divine crusader. There's only TWO enhancements in the entire tree that affect shields when the destiny itself says it provides absolute mastery over shields. If we're going to come out with reaper mode, I say remodel the defender trees and the sentinel destiny to be all-out defense.

one of my fighters was originally a SD years ago. when changes were made that killed off intimitanking and SD had to actually hit mobs, the dps was extremely weak and unable to hold agro. when the changes were made to SD and added Vanguard, I TR'd my fighter into a pure TYWA Vanguard. the survivability is great despite not having evasion, which is the Achilles heal, and the offense seems to me to be pretty balanced. my biggest issues with the offense is that there aren't many worthwhile clickies. for me, I only have like 3 things to click on- Stunning shield, Shield Smash and Shield Charge. I would use Shield Rush, but for me it doesn't seem to be worth the points when most of the time mobs don't fall down.

making SD all out defense would mean weak offense and nobody would play one. you would be relying on your party members to beat down mobs while you basically just try to hold agro. when I used to play my intimitank, I loved the survivability, but many people didn't like just standing there doing nothing holding down their block button and many told me how boring it was. SD definitely should be one of the best in damage mitigation, tanking and holding agro, but there still should be a nice balance with offense. Vanguard does this pretty well.

[Selvera]

As someone with a very nicely working nearly pure stalwart-defender TYWA build, I'm really not enchanted by a number of these changes.

1) You're removing fighter's only self heal (although you are adding a new one, but still, you're removing their self heal)
3) You're removing the only AoE in the tree, which I'm pretty fond of using.

However, I'm always open to discussion and I do agree with many of your ideas, so let's look at the changes you're proposing.

Core Enhancements:

Stalwart Defense: This is a very good enhancement as is, your change is very minor and a pretty good idea.

Overbalance: I am also not enchanted at this enhancement, since SD has very little in terms of shield-bash chance. I'm not sure if armour piercing is the right choice for a replacement, but it's not a bad option either. Another option would be an active shield bash knocks down.

Stand Fast: On paper I don't much like this enhancement, but in practice it's actually quite useful. Typically dragons and air elementals love to knock you down, and a SD often doesn't have the reflex save to prevent it, having a get back up immediately is great. I'm not sure if this needs an update.

Defensive Sweep: Defensive sweep is one enhancement I regularly use to increase my DPS a significant amount when getting mobbed by enemies. I would not want to give this up for just some one more CC clickie, no matter how good it is.

Last Stand: This capstone is already great in pretty much every way. The only change I would look to make for it is to lower the HP granted (Maybe 40% instead of 100%) and increase the duration (60 or 90 seconds instead of 30). On a TYWA builds, I very much appreciate a 6 Con capstone, while str isn’t very good. On non TYWA builds, Con is still very good, while +2 str is as good as many other capstones give.

Tier 1

Threatening Demeanor: Your change is removing +intimidate for a small amount of +threat generation, but SD already has a lot of +threat generation, so perhaps having the +intimidate
as an option would be good?

Armor Expertise: Yes and no. 10 AC at level 1 is OP, this is part of why martial past lives have trivialized heroics. However the current not even 6 AC at level 30 is somewhat trivial. How’s this for a suggestion?
Armor Expertise (Stalwart Defense Mastery): Armour you equip gains +1/2/3 to its enhancement bonus and gains +1/2/3 max dex bonus. Additionally tower shields you equip gain +1/2/3 to their max dex bonus.
This is 2 QoL beneifits; firstly the bonus to enhancement bonus should multiply by reinforced armour when you get it later. Secondly the max dex bonus isn’t hindered by using a tower shield.

Defense Boost: I’d have to say no to this. Dodge is the realm of light-armoured builds (monks, rogues, tempests, who can get 30%-50% dodge easily), not for full tanks who might have 6% with enhancements which increase the max dex bonus of their stuff. The difference between 50% and 75% dodge is a lot higher then the difference between 6% and 30%, thus making this proposed change much, much better for a level 1 splash of rogue/monk then for a SD that you’ve designed it for.
Defense boost as it is right now actually sounds OK, the problem with it is that it’s overshadowed by much better defensive boosts available to SD and tanks in general. It would be nice to add some intimidate or some threat generation to it.

Tier 2

Shield Expertise: My proposed change would be again to make the max dex bonus apply to both armour and shield: 5/10/15% shield AC bonus and 1/2/3 max dex bonus of armour and tower shields.

Stalwart Shield Mastery: I’m rather fond of getting bonus to damage with my bonus to AC. This appears to be replacing the T3 enhancement that grants bonus damage as part of it. I’d prefer to keep the Tier 3 enhancement the same, requiring stalwart defense mastery (discussed below) as a tier 2 enhancement.

Enhanced Stalwart Defense: I like this idea and I like the implementation and I can see the desire to change away from instinctive defense, but in the interest of not losing something from the tree, I would prefer: Choose 1 one of: +5/10/15% healing amp, +2/4/6 Intimidate, 10%/15%/20% less damage while helpless. While in Stalwart Defense and wearing heavy armor and wielding a shield. 1 AP per tier.
While the PRR/MRR would probably be more tasty in an enhancement, the tree already has PRR/MRR as a bonus to SD in the tree.

Tier 3

Stalwart Defense Mastery: As mentioned above, I think this should be moved to tier 2. I do agree that the current enhancement is very underwhelming; and but I’m not sure if this is worth increasing the cost to 2 AP per tier. How about: +1/2/3 Enhancement Bonus to equipped armour +1%/+2%/+3% dodge, -1/2/3 armor check penalty. 1 AP per tier. (Tier 2 enhancement, prerequisite for stalwart shield mastery).

Enhanced Stalwart Defense: Yes, SD is a little sparse at T3 right now, and adding this in would be a nice addition.

Stats: While I’m usually for more options, I see no reason to add dex/cha to this list, Str/Con pretty much covers what these builds typically want.

Tier 4

Counterattack: This still sounds very weak. Switching it from an action boost to permanent is a good change. I like the current power charges up mechanic it has (as more attacks are blocked/tanked). How about we combine these? On being attacked while blocking: +1/2/3[w] damage on your next attack for 3 seconds, stacking up to 3 times (for a maximum of +9[w] damage after being attacked 3x while blocking).

Enhanced Stalwart Defense: In theory this has to be here, but there’s no space for it given that there’s reinforced defense here. Personally I’d prefer to have reinforced defense not changed if possible. How about we put this in this tier and move counter-attack up to tier-5 as a replacement for Reprisal (which kinda sucks).

Tier 5
Swift Offense: This sort of feels like a watered down version of Block and Cut. As a tank, getting 25% doublestrike for 10 seconds is pretty cool, while 6% doublestrike permanently is less exciting and less effective overall. I’d be included to keep the old one.

Reinforced Defense: Personally I prefer the old version of reinforced defense.

Stalwart Vigor: SD already has a heal, although it’s only available at level 20 when other better heals become available, it is very much in the flavor of how SD should have a heal (heal when you’re hit). This sort of looks like a version of vampirism that’s larger chunks less often, or a less reliable single target Ameliorating Strike. I’m not too sold on this idea.
How is this for an idea of a replacement?
Choose One:
a) Offense is the best Defense: For every 8 PRR you have, gain 1 melee power. Costs: 2 AP
b) Defense is the best Offense: For every 6 melee power you have, gain 1 PRR. Costs: 2 AP

[the_one_dwarfforged]

Stalwart Vigor was just an idea for fighters to get a little bit of self-healing in a format that wasn't just a straight copy/paste from some other class's means of doing the same. I don't like it, either. It's more of a placeholder to show that fighters could use that function.

Swift Offense I put in, because they do really need a slight increase to damage and attack speed is the most satisfying to me. It allows for a damage increase that scales with gear, which I feel helps to emphasize the importance of gearing properly and the base attack animation speed just seems so slow, now. I really don't like the idea of being reliant on Vanguard.

I feel Vanguard is implemented poorly. It's a damage based tree reliant on a shield. The only defensive bonuses in it are a few AC and Fortitude saves. It requires you to use a shield, which, late game, is a really small addition to defense on its own. I feel it tricks people. They'd be better off doing a dual wield build that can self-heal. If they wanted to make tanks have viable offense, then they should have given actual tanks viable offense.

fighters shouldnt have built in self healing though. i see last stand as an acceptable exception, but thats pretty much it.

stalwart defender is a defensive/tank tree, both in flavor and design (not a comment about whether or not its good or works). it should have well above average defenses, with enough dps + threat gen that it can always or nearly always hold aggro in a raid group. whether or not a primarily tank build can kill stuff on its own effectively or not is really not and should not be a design concern whatsoever, unless they are doing it too well in which case that would need to be dialed back. the ways i suggested buffing the dps parts of stalwart imo are thematically appropriate and should provide good bursts of dmg and aggro while being used in the manner that a stalwart is more or less intended to be played in, meaning aggro control should be easier from the dps stand point, and it separates fighter and paladin tanks a bit (which i think is a really good thing).

obviously you are going to be reliant on any tree you have access to other than stalwart/sacred defender as your primary enhancements based source of dps. if you choose that tree to be vanguard, ok, but idk if vg or kensei is actually better at this point. regardless, if you want to be a dps first character, spending most of your points in defender is clearly not an issue with the game.

[Grimreich]

As someone with a very nicely working nearly pure stalwart-defender TYWA build, I'm really not enchanted by a number of these changes.

1) You're removing fighter's only self heal (although you are adding a new one, but still, you're removing their self heal)
3) You're removing the only AoE in the tree, which I'm pretty fond of using.

However, I'm always open to discussion and I do agree with many of your ideas, so let's look at the changes you're proposing.

Core Enhancements:

Stalwart Defense: This is a very good enhancement as is, your change is very minor and a pretty good idea.

Overbalance: I am also not enchanted at this enhancement, since SD has very little in terms of shield-bash chance. I'm not sure if armour piercing is the right choice for a replacement, but it's not a bad option either. Another option would be an active shield bash knocks down.

Stand Fast: On paper I don't much like this enhancement, but in practice it's actually quite useful. Typically dragons and air elementals love to knock you down, and a SD often doesn't have the reflex save to prevent it, having a get back up immediately is great. I'm not sure if this needs an update.

Defensive Sweep: Defensive sweep is one enhancement I regularly use to increase my DPS a significant amount when getting mobbed by enemies. I would not want to give this up for just some one more CC clickie, no matter how good it is.

Last Stand: This capstone is already great in pretty much every way. The only change I would look to make for it is to lower the HP granted (Maybe 40% instead of 100%) and increase the duration (60 or 90 seconds instead of 30). On a TYWA builds, I very much appreciate a 6 Con capstone, while str isn’t very good. On non TYWA builds, Con is still very good, while +2 str is as good as many other capstones give.

Tier 1

Threatening Demeanor: Your change is removing +intimidate for a small amount of +threat generation, but SD already has a lot of +threat generation, so perhaps having the +intimidate
as an option would be good?

Armor Expertise: Yes and no. 10 AC at level 1 is OP, this is part of why martial past lives have trivialized heroics. However the current not even 6 AC at level 30 is somewhat trivial. How’s this for a suggestion?
Armor Expertise (Stalwart Defense Mastery): Armour you equip gains +1/2/3 to its enhancement bonus and gains +1/2/3 max dex bonus. Additionally tower shields you equip gain +1/2/3 to their max dex bonus.
This is 2 QoL beneifits; firstly the bonus to enhancement bonus should multiply by reinforced armour when you get it later. Secondly the max dex bonus isn’t hindered by using a tower shield.

Defense Boost: I’d have to say no to this. Dodge is the realm of light-armoured builds (monks, rogues, tempests, who can get 30%-50% dodge easily), not for full tanks who might have 6% with enhancements which increase the max dex bonus of their stuff. The difference between 50% and 75% dodge is a lot higher then the difference between 6% and 30%, thus making this proposed change much, much better for a level 1 splash of rogue/monk then for a SD that you’ve designed it for.
Defense boost as it is right now actually sounds OK, the problem with it is that it’s overshadowed by much better defensive boosts available to SD and tanks in general. It would be nice to add some intimidate or some threat generation to it.

Tier 2

Shield Expertise: My proposed change would be again to make the max dex bonus apply to both armour and shield: 5/10/15% shield AC bonus and 1/2/3 max dex bonus of armour and tower shields.

Stalwart Shield Mastery: I’m rather fond of getting bonus to damage with my bonus to AC. This appears to be replacing the T3 enhancement that grants bonus damage as part of it. I’d prefer to keep the Tier 3 enhancement the same, requiring stalwart defense mastery (discussed below) as a tier 2 enhancement.

Enhanced Stalwart Defense: I like this idea and I like the implementation and I can see the desire to change away from instinctive defense, but in the interest of not losing something from the tree, I would prefer: Choose 1 one of: +5/10/15% healing amp, +2/4/6 Intimidate, 10%/15%/20% less damage while helpless. While in Stalwart Defense and wearing heavy armor and wielding a shield. 1 AP per tier.
While the PRR/MRR would probably be more tasty in an enhancement, the tree already has PRR/MRR as a bonus to SD in the tree.

Tier 3

Stalwart Defense Mastery: As mentioned above, I think this should be moved to tier 2. I do agree that the current enhancement is very underwhelming; and but I’m not sure if this is worth increasing the cost to 2 AP per tier. How about: +1/2/3 Enhancement Bonus to equipped armour +1%/+2%/+3% dodge, -1/2/3 armor check penalty. 1 AP per tier. (Tier 2 enhancement, prerequisite for stalwart shield mastery).

Enhanced Stalwart Defense: Yes, SD is a little sparse at T3 right now, and adding this in would be a nice addition.

Stats: While I’m usually for more options, I see no reason to add dex/cha to this list, Str/Con pretty much covers what these builds typically want.

Tier 4

Counterattack: This still sounds very weak. Switching it from an action boost to permanent is a good change. I like the current power charges up mechanic it has (as more attacks are blocked/tanked). How about we combine these? On being attacked while blocking: +1/2/3[w] damage on your next attack for 3 seconds, stacking up to 3 times (for a maximum of +9[w] damage after being attacked 3x while blocking).

Enhanced Stalwart Defense: In theory this has to be here, but there’s no space for it given that there’s reinforced defense here. Personally I’d prefer to have reinforced defense not changed if possible. How about we put this in this tier and move counter-attack up to tier-5 as a replacement for Reprisal (which kinda sucks).

Tier 5
Swift Offense: This sort of feels like a watered down version of Block and Cut. As a tank, getting 25% doublestrike for 10 seconds is pretty cool, while 6% doublestrike permanently is less exciting and less effective overall. I’d be included to keep the old one.

Reinforced Defense: Personally I prefer the old version of reinforced defense.

Stalwart Vigor: SD already has a heal, although it’s only available at level 20 when other better heals become available, it is very much in the flavor of how SD should have a heal (heal when you’re hit). This sort of looks like a version of vampirism that’s larger chunks less often, or a less reliable single target Ameliorating Strike. I’m not too sold on this idea.
How is this for an idea of a replacement?
Choose One:
a) Offense is the best Defense: For every 8 PRR you have, gain 1 melee power. Costs: 2 AP
b) Defense is the best Offense: For every 6 melee power you have, gain 1 PRR. Costs: 2 AP

For the most part, this makes sense to me. I like most of the ideas. I was mostly trying to get some real discussion on where tanks should be in the current build and it's good to see something other than 'no.'

One thing I would like to refute is your disinterest in allowing Charisma and Dexterity for attribute bonuses. I added those for Elves that want to use Dexterity to hit and damage and Purple Dragon Knights who want to use Charisma.

[Grimreich]

fighters shouldnt have built in self healing though. i see last stand as an acceptable exception, but thats pretty much it.

stalwart defender is a defensive/tank tree, both in flavor and design (not a comment about whether or not its good or works). it should have well above average defenses, with enough dps + threat gen that it can always or nearly always hold aggro in a raid group. whether or not a primarily tank build can kill stuff on its own effectively or not is really not and should not be a design concern whatsoever, unless they are doing it too well in which case that would need to be dialed back. the ways i suggested buffing the dps parts of stalwart imo are thematically appropriate and should provide good bursts of dmg and aggro while being used in the manner that a stalwart is more or less intended to be played in, meaning aggro control should be easier from the dps stand point, and it separates fighter and paladin tanks a bit (which i think is a really good thing).

obviously you are going to be reliant on any tree you have access to other than stalwart/sacred defender as your primary enhancements based source of dps. if you choose that tree to be vanguard, ok, but idk if vg or kensei is actually better at this point. regardless, if you want to be a dps first character, spending most of your points in defender is clearly not an issue with the game.

The point is that having a build choice that's only kind of useful sometimes is ****. The classical ideas of it don't really apply in DDO today. I feel I've stressed enough that I'm not looking for high DPS and made the point of this thread pretty clear.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

The point is that having a build choice that's only kind of useful sometimes is ****. The classical ideas of it don't really apply in DDO today. I feel I've stressed enough that I'm not looking for high DPS and made the point of this thread pretty clear.

and if you arent looking for high dps then your dps doesnt matter as long as its enough to hold aggro when combined with threat gen bonuses and intim so adding a thematically inappropriate dps enhancement instead of properly revising the existing ones seems like a bad move to me.

the degree to which defenders/true tanks are useful across the entire spectrum of the game is always going to be limited. against easy **** youll never need them. most of the game is easy. really you only need real tanks when you really need them, but when you do, youre super glad you have them. i feel the role is super niche just by its very nature, not because its not good in ddo. of course the opposite end of the spectrum exists, which is what reaper sounds like it will be, where only real tanks have sufficient defensive stats/capabilities to survive more than 2 hits with any regularity. in that case, they genuinely dont need any dps increase, or any threat gen increases in all honesty. if we reach the point where the content people want to and do run absolutely requires a real tank and real tanks cannot no fail hold aggro of everything 100% of the time, that only sounds like a good thing to me. maybe people playing dps characters will learn or perhaps relearn that there is and should be more to it than holding left click to win until they have enough past lives and gear to roflstomp the hardest difficulty available to them.

[Grimreich]

and if you arent looking for high dps then your dps doesnt matter as long as its enough to hold aggro when combined with threat gen bonuses and intim so adding a thematically inappropriate dps enhancement instead of properly revising the existing ones seems like a bad move to me.

the degree to which defenders/true tanks are useful across the entire spectrum of the game is always going to be limited. against easy **** youll never need them. most of the game is easy. really you only need real tanks when you really need them, but when you do, youre super glad you have them. i feel the role is super niche just by its very nature, not because its not good in ddo. of course the opposite end of the spectrum exists, which is what reaper sounds like it will be, where only real tanks have sufficient defensive stats/capabilities to survive more than 2 hits with any regularity. in that case, they genuinely dont need any dps increase, or any threat gen increases in all honesty. if we reach the point where the content people want to and do run absolutely requires a real tank and real tanks cannot no fail hold aggro of everything 100% of the time, that only sounds like a good thing to me. maybe people playing dps characters will learn or perhaps relearn that there is and should be more to it than holding left click to win until they have enough past lives and gear to roflstomp the hardest difficulty available to them.

Let me try to explain this differently, because I get that you understand how they work, now, but what I'm saying is that's poor design.

If you don't do enough damage to kill something, it will eventually kill you, regardless of how tanky you are. Defender tanks can currently get to a point where they can tank anything in the game for a functionally acceptable period of time, but so can other builds. This makes them COMPLETELY pointless. There's no real incentive to play them for anyone other than hardcore sword and board fans like myself, but you're more likely to survive going Vanguard, because you can actually kill **** in a reasonable amount of time, which makes up for the meager percentages in the stat differences in AC, PRR and MRR between the two end game. I like to think I've built the best tanks in the game in the past, but currently, the best sword and board tank I can think of is a Vanguard/Divine Crusader rather than Sacred Defender/Unyielding Sentinel.