DDOCast 456 - DDO Debates: Quest Design

[pjstechie]

Cordovan moderates a DDO Debate about Quest Design with Voodu, Evennote & Antha this week! We also discuss some monsters that could make it to DDO soon, the transition off Korthos & other game and community news!

Have thoughts on this show, ideas for round table topics, questions you’d like us to answer, or topics you’d like to see us debate? Leave us a comment, send us an email (ddocast@gmail.com) or give us a tweet (@ddocast)!

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DDO Debates: Quest Design - 1:26
Game News - 36:35
Community News - 47:37
Lightning Post - 59:22
Closing - 1:09:15

Watch shows live at twitch.tv/ddocast

DDO Chronicle 218
What Monster would you most like to see?
Evennote: How to Train Your Dracolich
Truth Seekers 4th Annual Holiday Giveaway

[FranOhmsford]

A fix for The Gate Chamber in Threnal:

1) Buff Bergthrym's HPs, Saves etc. to Sor'jek levels {Tempest Spine Sor'jek} and make him Rednamed rather than Orange.

2) Buff Shaman Telgirrod as well.

3) Change the Portal to require a beat down {Vale Slayer Portal HP+DR} with Renders, Reavers, Flensers and a couple of named Beholders spawning in waves at 90%, 60%, 30% and 10% HP of the Portal.
All Mobs must be killed as well as the Portal to actually complete the quest.

4) Maybe even add a Glabrezu as final boss spawning at Portal 5% HP.?

[FranOhmsford]

I'll never understand when people talk about the fire room in Halls of Shan to Kor how they always seem to forget the firetraps on that Ladder up to the third lever to open the gate to the fire room itself.

Getting up that ladder is nasty without a trapper.

Even with a trapper in some cases tbh as the Hobgob Caster at the top doesn't seem to be targetable from below but he can just spam flamestrikes at the trapper stopping said trapper from being able to disable it.?





As for traps being optional in Elite - I think there needs to be a difference between Heroic Elite and Epic/Legendary Elite.
Slavers especially is just plain ludicrous on Heroic as the traps at least at the beginning of pt 1 are unjumpable even with a run up unless you have wings AND to add insult to injury they're randomly placed so you can't memorise them to make trying to get through them easier.
Also - There's so many of them that a Trapper is going to take a long time to disable them all.

AND I really hate that mobs run through and fight in traps without trouble!
Sorrordusk Pt 1-4 are really bad for this.



Misadventure regularly gets a very high kill count in Partycrashers.

[FranOhmsford]

Best Use of an NPC for me is in The Bounty Hunter+Keeper's Sanctuary.

I won't ruin it for those who don't already know the truth.

[FranOhmsford]

Stormreaver Fresco - How not to kill the guards:

1) Have at least two players both with 1 Invis Pot.
When leaving the Vault drink Invis Pot and one of you goes right and the other goes left - Pull Levers and Guards stop attacking.

2) If solo it's slightly harder but still doable. {2 Invis Pots this time}.
Run to right lever first, Q and E to target it so you don't start opening the chest by mistake.
Then drink 2nd Invis Pot and run to left lever.


This can be done without Invis Pots too - It's just easier with them.




And in RWTD - Sorry but the Eladrin attack us, we are just defending ourselves against them.




P.S. Purge the Heretics:
In the Bogwater Tavern the first thing Gnomon says to you is: {Paraphrasing} "Are you faithful to the Silver Flame?" - If you are anything other than a Cleric/Soul or Paladin of the Silver Flame and say "Yes" it's your own fault NOT your Character's.

[FranOhmsford]

Uh pretty sure Turbine have already made multiple completely new Monsters:

Flesh Renders, Fire Reavers and Ice Flensers

Taken

That's four right there.




And btw there IS a Doppelganger in DDO - Haunted Halls

[Saekee]

An example of quest design without boss-to-kill are the Cannith Challenges (not Rushmore). Red names can appear but are not the objective. The stealth-beloved quests like Claw of Vulkoor & Blockade Buster are excellent examples of how orange named/red named fighting can be optional. Spies in the House would be a better quest if killing the red-named was optional; just require that the lever behind him is pulled and have it locked unless he is shifted far enough from it.

In response to kill counts--I would say, "poor question--a better one is, assuming NO metrics existed, which ones would you like to see in the report?" That engenders a more thoughtful and even imaginative response.

Quest designs I despise: Kill X to proceed. I would like paths of cunning, diplomacy, bluffing etc. as modes in which one can finish a quest. Use puzzles, move mobs onto pressure plates, trick keys out of them, etc. These require imagination.

[FuzzyDuck81]

Had a similar thought about the stormreaver heroic raid, it could be argued that the reaver isn't the boss of the chain so much as the guardian of the final challenge, which is the puzzle.

IMO there should always be an alternative way to using an actual trapper to deal with a trap - eg. the "safe spots" so you can time your way through it, a longer alternative route, or a specific item to let you get through it safely either by making you immune to it or deactivating it, essentially the keycard approach. I liked the Archon's Trial part where if you can do traps you have 1 route which has the extra disarming xp & chest, or the other platforming route.

Best use of a recurring character hasn't happened yet - I refuse to give up on the dream of Arboth turning up as a dragon saying "I told you so!"

Quests to feel ashamed of, aside from the obvious one, i'd say Undermine - I don't wanna be accused of being a kobold union-buster!

Corrupt a dungeon... I'd remove the ability to climb up that wall in Maze of Madness, so everyone has to run it properly.

Doppleganger could be interesting in a more story-based approach - for example, those quests where there's a group of creatures serving a stronger one - maybe if you take the time to do the optional & unmask the chief/advisor/whatever as a doppelganger they'll stand aside & let you fight the boss who murdered & replaced their chief, and if you ignore the optional objective, or misidentify the doppelganger, then you'll have to fight them as well as the boss, making for a much harder fight.

I love the cookies, they're great for TRing and yeah, some have great use at higher levels too in fact, I'd disagree with the wail cookies not being any good at high levels, as even though it generally won't kill the enemies it'll still apply negative levels, which is a defacto buff for any character that uses anything DC-based.

[Grandern_Marn]

Regarding the kill count question, I don't mind having it visible for everyone but it would be a great help to have stats beyond what are available there. Numbers of broken boxes are in that vein but things like how many people you've resurrected, hit points healed and total hit point damage done etc. would give a fuller picture of players activities. It would be cool to open the stat window and be able to see who has been keeping the team alive.

I seem to remember hearing this idea on one of the podcasts recently so it is not actually my idea. I can't remember who should get the credit but its a great concept. (I want to say it was Samius?)

[Cordovan]

Interesting feedback, thanks.

[ComicRelief]

As far as the transition from Korthos, I say bring Mari Mosshand back to hand out the bags. Baudry and Fitzpat are 'bugged' and don't always hand them out. Just relocate her from being outside the "Leaky Dinghy" to be over where the new fodder...um, I mean, adventurers make landfall in Stormreach. Or just somewhere over by Baudry.

[Vooduspyce]

A fix for The Gate Chamber in Threnal:

1) Buff Bergthrym's HPs, Saves etc. to Sor'jek levels {Tempest Spine Sor'jek} and make him Rednamed rather than Orange.

2) Buff Shaman Telgirrod as well.

3) Change the Portal to require a beat down {Vale Slayer Portal HP+DR} with Renders, Reavers, Flensers and a couple of named Beholders spawning in waves at 90%, 60%, 30% and 10% HP of the Portal.
All Mobs must be killed as well as the Portal to actually complete the quest.

4) Maybe even add a Glabrezu as final boss spawning at Portal 5% HP.?

I love it

[LrdSlvrhnd]

hit points healed

As long as it's actually a metric of HP healed, and not just a total of positive points given (the cleric with the aura hanging out with the casters and ranged not actually taking damage in part 4 of Shroud, vs. the FvS dropping mass heals on the guys getting chewed up by the blades, for instance... or the cleric dropping an empowered, maximized heal on the paladin with 300% hamp for 2K points, when the pally's only down 100 HP).

and total hit point damage done

This would be cool if the total amount from insta-kills (of any sort, including vorpal, disruption, etc.) is included.

[Qhualor]

good episode this week. some really good questions. if you don't mind, I would like to answer some of those questions as well.

traps

traps should not be optional in quests, but they should make sense in quests. I don't like traps randomly placed in quests just to add a mix to the adventure or give a reason for groups to want to bring along a trapper. it makes sense if we as players are "storming the castle" and the enemies are aware of that and so they lay down some traps in various places in the quest. it makes sense if there are traps around a chest to protect it. it makes sense to "build a moat around a castle with spikes or deadly creatures swimming around in it. what doesn't make sense is when the mobs don't trigger their own traps, but we do and you don't see them running off to activate the trap or stepping around spots on the floor that set off the trap. it doesn't make sense when traps are activated and you can kite mobs in and out of them or lead them to death. it doesn't make sense when we are supposedly surprising the enemy and here are random pit traps, spike traps, blade traps or something running down a regular old hallway.

I will also say its nice that some recent quests have some deadly traps on elite, but I have firmly believed that all traps in every quest on elite should pretty much kill you. if I fall into a spike trap or get sliced by swirling blades, than I should be dead. the one thing that I like about this game and traps is that most times you can get around or time the traps. there usually is a way and that's how I learned to play back some years ago. now its just relying on your reflex/MRR/HP or whatever and hope you don't roll a 1 or usually you can survive the traps. I've done rogue past lives and I know how it feels to pretty much be in a group for nothing more than xp. depending on the quest and traps, you can fall behind missing out on some fun playing catch up.

end quest bosses

not every quest needs to have an end boss, but I agree that the quest should offer something else interesting. the way I see it, someone is running the show in the quest. it may not be a red name, but its most likely someone following a red names orders. the story should lead up to eventually meeting this red name.

the issue I have with a lot of the bosses right now is that they are rather underwhelming. Champions pose a better challenge most times than an end boss. it feels like a lot of them are glorified henchmen.

kill counts

no. "last hit" kills mean nothing and leads to false evidence of how players and builds perform. I personally don't care how many mobs I killed. I just look at it to see if we got Conquest.

[pjstechie]

I'll never understand when people talk about the fire room in Halls of Shan to Kor how they always seem to forget the firetraps on that Ladder up to the third lever to open the gate to the fire room itself.

Getting up that ladder is nasty without a trapper.

Even with a trapper in some cases tbh as the Hobgob Caster at the top doesn't seem to be targetable from below but he can just spam flamestrikes at the trapper stopping said trapper from being able to disable it.?

I think those fire traps are far easier personally, though yes the casters are a problem

As for traps being optional in Elite - I think there needs to be a difference between Heroic Elite and Epic/Legendary Elite.
Slavers especially is just plain ludicrous on Heroic as the traps at least at the beginning of pt 1 are unjumpable even with a run up unless you have wings AND to add insult to injury they're randomly placed so you can't memorise them to make trying to get through them easier.
Also - There's so many of them that a Trapper is going to take a long time to disable them all.

i like the traps on legendary (havent run at level on heroic) but yes there are way too many of them to be practical to disarm

[pjstechie]

Uh pretty sure Turbine have already made multiple completely new Monsters:

Flesh Renders, Fire Reavers and Ice Flensers

Taken

That's four right there.




And btw there IS a Doppelganger in DDO - Haunted Halls

yes i know they have made completely new monsters, thats why i want them to make more! flesh renders and their cousins are some of the best monsters in the game imho

and yeah i was aware of the doppleganger when i brought it up, but I dont really consider that to be much of a doppleganger - it doesnt change shape or anything.

[pjstechie]

kill counts

no. "last hit" kills mean nothing and leads to false evidence of how players and builds perform.

that is an excellent point!

[Dragavon]

There is one quest I would really like to see changed, and that is the end of heroic fleshmakers. It is not possible to solo it as the runes reset way too fast for you to activate the boss.

While on epic it is easy.

Can we please get that changed so it can be soloed on heroic too?

[Equatis]

i like the traps on legendary (havent run at level on heroic) but yes there are way too many of them to be practical to disarm

I play several rogues as guild leader of the Rogues of Argonnessen. The random traps in Legendary Slave Lords are to numerous & time consuming to disable and use up way too many tools, which is why I disable some of them but not all and I tell the party go up the center or hug the left/right wall to be safe. If they choose to ignore my advice and take damage that's their problem not mine. Another reason is trap re-spawning, if even 1 trap is left untouched, they do not re-spawn in that exact area again, so when the casters/healers have to run back to a shrine we past to recharge SP they have less to worry about from random traps. I do think that at least on Elite traps should be deadlier and cause much more damage and even kill players. it gives an active purpose for trappers and offsets the fact we don't do as much damage as the barbarian is doing. It also makes clerics/favored souls a more valuable asset to the party and does make a trapper more then just additional XP for a party. I also believe traps should cause damage to any who run through them, including the monsters in the quest, they cause damage and death to hirelings why not to the monsters ? Some of the traps in Slave Lords do damage the monsters a little and parties I'm in do try and lure them to run through the traps.