Retrofitting Melee Power to Paladins

[the_one_dwarfforged]

no reasonable person would disagree.

Should they be doing half the damage of fighters and rangers?

prove to me its half, then this conversation can take place.

im sure ranger is going to be cited as 14k dps againt tt giant. just gonna accept that as standard and not overly difficult to achieve for most players. i have a pure paladin thf build from several updates ago that i was doing a little over 8k dps using dc against bruntsmash with. i think if you consider the difference in time and gear, as well as the fighting style difference and the fact that my guess is that tt giant dps test with a twf blitz build getting to start with full stacks of blitz is probably more conducive to higher dps than a shorter test, and i think it can be safely said that paladins arent doing half the damage.

and once again i feel that paladins have different defensive advantages over fighters and rangers that are worthwhile, particularly ranger due to heavy armor and defensive stance.

furthermore, define "paladin". does it include 14/6 or 15/5 builds which are very acceptable compromises that are still mostly paladin?

[BigErkyKid]

This thread needs maths...should we put them in?

Comparing a fighter with eRift and a paladin with a maul in silvanus. I have not factored in DBs, this is just

BaseF MpF CritBonus End result
143.5 3.18 1.85 844.2105

BaseP MpP CritBonus End result
124.75 2.67 2.05 682.819125


Base damage is assuming equal ability damage for both, which favors paladins in the comparison. So ~25% more damage. Again this favors paladin "unfairly" since I have neglected a bunch of things, but I figured putting a ballpark in wouldn't hurt.



PS - A taste of the numbers behind

Damage mod base (add fighter kensei to this)

51 Ability
14 Deadly
5 LD
4 Armor
12 Weapon
2 Arborea
10 Power attack
98 Total

Fighter MP
MP 218
Monk 0
Fighter 60
Epic levels 30
Blitz 70
LD 18
Gear 8
Feats 12
Arborea 20

MP 167
Monk 0
Paladin 15
Epic levels 30
Blitz 70
LD 18
Gear 8
Feats 6
Arborea 20

[Mr_Helmet]

prove to me its half, then this conversation can take place.

im sure ranger is going to be cited as 14k dps againt tt giant. just gonna accept that as standard and not overly difficult to achieve for most players. i have a pure paladin thf build from several updates ago that i was doing a little over 8k dps using dc against bruntsmash with. i think if you consider the difference in time and gear, as well as the fighting style difference and the fact that my guess is that tt giant dps test with a twf blitz build getting to start with full stacks of blitz is probably more conducive to higher dps than a shorter test, and i think it can be safely said that paladins arent doing half the damage.

and once again i feel that paladins have different defensive advantages over fighters and rangers that are worthwhile, particularly ranger due to heavy armor and defensive stance.

furthermore, define "paladin". does it include 14/6 or 15/5 builds which are very acceptable compromises that are still mostly paladin?

DC on a low HP target like Bruntsmah can often be more DPS than blitz would be.

I'll accept 14/6 and 15/5 builds as paladins. I'd prefer like for like so a Blitzing comparison against the TT giant would work. Truthfully that giant doesn't have enough HP either with the DPS we're putting out at level 30, but I can't think of anything better that isn't a pain int he neck to get to.

Pally saves are amazing, but the heavy armor benefit isn't as good as you think it is. Not since the Armor Up nerfs and the Tempest/Derpwood buffs.

[Mr_Helmet]

This thread needs maths...should we put them in?

No, maths never solve anything.

[NaturalHazard]

and the Tempest/Derpwood buffs.

ssshhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!

[Mr_Helmet]

ssshhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!

Sorry, I forgot the party line.

Rangers are weak, nothing to see here.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

DC on a low HP target like Bruntsmah can often be more DPS than blitz would be.

I'll accept 14/6 and 15/5 builds as paladins. I'd prefer like for like so a Blitzing comparison against the TT giant would work. Truthfully that giant doesn't have enough HP either with the DPS we're putting out at level 30, but I can't think of anything better that isn't a pain int he neck to get to.

Pally saves are amazing, but the heavy armor benefit isn't as good as you think it is. Not since the Armor Up nerfs and the Tempest/Derpwood buffs.

i havent run a side by side comparison or in anyway tried to actually determine this factually, but imo starting a dps test with full stacks of blitz that is also slightly longer (~20+ seconds vs 10-15 seconds or even less) is more favorable to generating higher dps numbers in at least some cases.

i dont have a paladin build and no interest in one so there wont be any paladin dps test from me these days.

the heavy armor is exactly as good as i think it is. its not about the actual amount of damage it prevents or reduces, its about how well it keeps you alive. getting oneshot less and having to heal less often is very good stuff. seeing videos of tempests in reaper, it seemed like light armor was almost pointless and unless youre wearing heavy or a barb in medium you may as well just build full dodge.

[BigErkyKid]

No, maths never solve anything.

Pity because it is math what is behind the code that results in 14kDPS on tempests and so on.

I agree though that modeling DPS is a tad hard once you have to consider everything, but it certainly provides good ballparks.

As for whether paladin it is too weak, I would say that this is undeniable. A tempest can have sufficient defenses and way more DPS.

The hjealing and saves advantage of paladin might be relevant for a rookie, but when you are comparing it across veterans it doesn't hold. A tempest MIGHT have less healing, but it compensates with DPS.

I think the problem is that most "unique" abilities in the game don't really matter than much, which makes it incredible hard to balance classes.

Taking aside dance of death, what makes a tempest or a kensei strong are the passive bonuses (DBs, melee power, damage mods). So when it comes to comparing class DPS, the more it is based on passive, the harder it is to provide some semblance of balance. This is because passive DPS is universal, as opposed to context dependent like say having some unique fort reducing abilities, or single target stuns, or what not.

If the abilities that paladin have (smite evil, etc.) where very strong, and so where the active abilities no tempest and fighter, then there could be some balancing across them. Some classes would have an edge on single target or AOE, or against certain types of mobs, etc.

As we stand, though, auto attack is the single most powerful ability, so classes are basically ranked on auto attack power.

This is further complicated by the fact that survivability is also very good on BF fighters and tempests, so there isn't real balancing on that side.

[Mr_Helmet]

i dont have a paladin build and no interest in one so there wont be any paladin dps test from me these days.

[/QUOTE]

And yet you'll spout off as if you know how the class performs in the current game.

I have a level 30 pally, it's terrible compared to fighter and ranger (which I also happen to have right now at cap in my stable). Not even close right now.

[Mr_Helmet]

Pity because it is math what is behind the code that results in 14kDPS on tempests and so on.

Was my Axer joke too subtle?

[the_one_dwarfforged]

And yet you'll spout off as if you know how the class performs in the current game.

I have a level 30 pally, it's terrible compared to fighter and ranger (which I also happen to have right now at cap in my stable). Not even close right now.[/QUOTE]

yea, because i play these kinds of builds all the time pretty much exclusively.

i also dont definitively state that what i am saying is the hard truth and should be the end of the conversation, i also frequently preface comments with the perspective i am coming from. if you cant read that and understand, well thats not really my problem.

if you have a level 30 paladin, post a video of any dps test you want, and if you are managing only 8k on a dps paladin build, and it isnt a garbage build with bad equipment and played poorly, then i could agree that paladins might need a bit more dps. until then, if im just judging objectively, just saying that you have one and its terrible means less to me than the assumptions ive made about the performance of paladins because i at least putting real information into the discussion.

[Mr_Helmet]

yea, because i play these kinds of builds all the time pretty much exclusively.

That makes no sense, you either have a pally or you don't.

Mine is currently THFing and is only getting like 6k on a Tracker's trap beatdown. When lamania come up I'll LR20 one of my TWFers into a pally for some better numbers.

That of course makes more sense than just assuming things like some people do on this forum.

[the_one_dwarfforged]

That makes no sense, you either have a pally or you don't.

Mine is currently THFing and is only getting like 6k on a Tracker's trap beatdown. When lamania come up I'll LR20 one of my TWFers into a pally for some better numbers.

That of course makes more sense than just assuming things like some people do on this forum.

6k sounds like a joke. i dont believe that 6k is the top end possible.

[boredman]

6k sounds like a joke. i dont believe that 6k is the top end possible.

I'm not playing a maul paladin atm but when tested on lammania a pure pdk maul paladin, I was getting around 6.7k dps on the red name kobolds with only t2 thunderforged, no slaver gear and no special buffs or scrolls, with ship buffs, just class and destinies buffs, no heroic past lifes and just the doublestrike epic past lifes. At that time silvanus was giving +2 crit mult instead +2 crit range I think.

[NaturalHazard]

My paladin has 5 levels of ranger. Most his points are in tempest. He only has enough points in Kotc for divine might and then only the 1minute version.

Its so much better with tempest in terms of dps, very easy to notice the difference. If your a paladin build and care about dps I strongly suggest, ranger for 2wf and fighter for 2hf for a 5 or 6 splash and a big chunk of your enhancements to get the tier 5's tempest or kensei.

[NaturalHazard]

Was my Axer joke too subtle?

May he stay in NWO.

[Omgitzme]

Just wanted to say thanks. I am a returning f2p with very few content and currently on my 2nd life.
This discussion/swap of opinions helped me decide on how to progress my build.