The Definitive Quivering Palm & Max Wisdom Thread

[Arlathen]

So, it's time we Monks determined what our Maximum Quivering Palm DC is likely to be, and exactly which bonuses actually work to this ability.

Current 'reasonable' Max Wisdom
18 Base
07 Levels
07 Tome
08 Enhancements (4 Primary Tree Capstone, 2 Primary Tree, 2 Secondary Tree) *1
02 Completionist
17 Item: Enhancement
07 Item: Insight
04 Item: Quality
02 Item: Artifact
02 Item: Profane
01 Item: Exceptional
02 Festival Augment
04 Grandmaster Water Stance
06 Epic Destiny
02 Feats: Great Wisdom
02 ED Twists: Wisdom
02 Yugoloth Potion
02 Remnant Potion
02 Guild Ship
= 97 Wisdom (+43 Bonus)

*1 +10 Enhancement AP setup possible, but prevents Know the Angles usage

Current 'reasonable' Max Intelligence (Know the Angles)
12 Base
07 Tome
02 Completionist
17 Item: Enhancement
07 Item: Insight
04 Item: Quality
02 Item: Artifact
02 Item: Profane
01 Item: Exceptional
02 Remnant Potion
02 Guild Ship
= 58 Intelligence (+24 Bonus)
= +12DC Bonus to Quivering Palm

Current 'reasonable' Quivering Palm DC (20 Monk, Any Race)
10 Base
10 Monk Level
43 Wisdom Bonus
03 PL: Fighter
06 ED: Legendary Tactics
03 ED: Grandmaster of Flowers Innates
04 Feat: Scion of the Astral Plane
02 Feat: Tactician
= 81DC Base DC
= 93DC with Know the Angles

Current 'Max' Quivering Palm DC (16 Monk, 4 Fighter, Dwarf or WF)
10 Base
08 Monk Level
43 Wisdom Bonus
03 PL: Fighter
06 ED: Legendary Tactics
03 ED: Grandmaster of Flowers Innates
03 Dwarf Tactics
03 Kensei Tactics
02 Feat: Tactical Training
04 Feat: Scion of the Astral Plane
02 Feat: Tactician
= 87DC
= 99DC with Know the Angles

Extreme 'Max' Wisdom Build - May cause Build Gimping! Be Warned!
+2 ED: Acute Instincts (Requires constant Rage Potion usage)
+1 ED: Twists (All twist slots used for Wisdom, Acute Instincts & Legendary Tactics)
+2 Feats: Great Wisdom (All Epic Feats used for Great Wisdom)
+2 Racial Wisdom - Deep Gnome
+2 Racial Enhancement - Deep Gnome or Human/PDK Action Boost: Wisdom
= +9 Wisdom

Current Theoretical Max Wisdom: 106 Wisdom

Confirmed working Quivering Palm Bonuses
+X Harper Bonus from Know The Angles
+X PDK Charisma Bonus from Knight Training
03 Warforged / Bladeforged / Dwarf Tactics
03 Kensei Tactics
03 ED: Grand Master of Flowers Innate
02 Feat: Tactical Training
04 Feat: Scion of the Astral Plane
03 PL: Fighter
06 ED: Legendary Tactics

Confirmed not working Bonuses
+X Any Item-based bonuses to Tactics, including Combat Mastery
01 Guild Ship Bonus

Please post your known working bonuses to Quivering Palm, as well as anything concerning Wisdom bonuses I may have missed.

Thanks!

[Amideus]

I can confirm that dwarf tactics, fighter kensai tactics, the fighter tactics feat, and KtA works for Quivering Palm. I can't yet confirm that PDK works, but it would be limited to shortswords or longswords with whirling steel.

So with a 4 fighter slash you can get:

10 base
8 monk levels
42 wisdom
3 Fighter PL
6 ED tactics
2 tactician feat
4 Scion of the Astral Plane
3 dwarf
3 figher kensai
2 fighter tactics feat

83 DC with the above changes. KtA has the potential to add even more, but would need a working max int without levels for a monk.

[Arlathen]

1st Post updated. Thanks for the feedback, Amideus!

I've taken a 'reasonable' stab at a working Intelligence on a Monk Build, so that a rough estimate for Know the Angles can be factored in. This doesn't take into account AP spends though for maxing out Wisdom.

[dunklezhan]

Your definitions of reasonable are very different than mine*, but I supposed the point is to work out the max not the likely.





*+7 tomes, insight, quality, artefact and profane bonuses, and a festival augment you can only get once a year! lol!

[ishr]

do they work?

[Amideus]

Your definitions of reasonable are very different than mine*, but I supposed the point is to work out the max not the likely.





*+7 tomes, insight, quality, artefact and profane bonuses, and a festival augment you can only get once a year! lol!

I have a +6 to all tome, insight and quality aren't overly difficult to get with the new crafting available and higher tier content. Artifact is more specialized, profane (as far as I am aware) can only be gained from festival cookies, and that's a +4 not a +2, and the augment is probably the most difficult to get, but since most people have been playing this game for at least a year, it's not that unreasonable to assume someone has worked towards the wisdom one at some point.

[Amideus]

do they work?

As far as I am aware they are still bugged and don't work, however they also grant an insight bonus which doesn't stack with KtA.

[Arlathen]

Your definitions of reasonable are very different than mine*, but I supposed the point is to work out the max not the likely.

*+7 tomes, insight, quality, artefact and profane bonuses, and a festival augment you can only get once a year! lol!

Your quite right, some of this is very grindy to get.

Really I should change the word 'Reasonable' to 'Achievable', or even 'Sustainable'. Really, its all about boosts to Wisdom or DC that are maintainable over an extended period (so no Abishai cookies, for instance) and don't require a complete RNG loot mechanic to get i.e. the old scroll/seal/shard system.

For example, even though Slave Lords is a huge grind, its achievable with enough patience. Barring ransack, your guaranteed ingredient drops in chest and your guaranteed a bonus amount every few runs. Therefore, 'reasonable' to 'achieve' and 'sustain'.

do they work?

No, no item bonus to tactics in any form currently works to Quivering Palm, as far as I know.

I have a +6 to all tome, insight and quality aren't overly difficult to get with the new crafting available and higher tier content. Artifact is more specialized, profane (as far as I am aware) can only be gained from festival cookies, and that's a +4 not a +2, and the augment is probably the most difficult to get, but since most people have been playing this game for at least a year, it's not that unreasonable to assume someone has worked towards the wisdom one at some point.

+2 Profane bonus is available on the Epic Litany of the Dead.

As far as I am aware they are still bugged and don't work, however they also grant an insight bonus which doesn't stack with KtA.

Also true, further negating there use.

[Amideus]

I had forgotten about Epic Litany, mainly because I haven't been playing Epic content since pre-Necro update, I was busy working on past lives for 3 fighter feats so I could build the 16/4 QP dwarf monk of my dreams.

Interestingly enough, if they have fixed the cookies, I have 25+ of each Abishai so I will be able to get some +4 action going for harder content and see just how high I can push the DC.

[Arlathen]

I had forgotten about Epic Litany, mainly because I haven't been playing Epic content since pre-Necro update, I was busy working on past lives for 3 fighter feats so I could build the 16/4 QP dwarf monk of my dreams.

Interestingly enough, if they have fixed the cookies, I have 25+ of each Abishai so I will be able to get some +4 action going for harder content and see just how high I can push the DC.

Ahh no worries. And Good luck with that! Reminds me of when I had a short lived Ninja-Spy monk running dual short swords and Quivering Palm (short lived because back then I was no where near a decent DC on QP).

So, Videos please!

[dunklezhan]

Your quite right, some of this is very grindy to get.

Really I should change the word 'Reasonable' to 'Achievable', or even 'Sustainable'. Really, its all about boosts to Wisdom or DC that are maintainable over an extended period (so no Abishai cookies, for instance) and don't require a complete RNG loot mechanic to get i.e. the old scroll/seal/shard system.

I figured that's what you meant, it just tickled me is all. Yeah - sustainable, as in 'what i can eventually get it to and just be on whilst I walk around' without needing boosts and stuff. Not sure you can get all of those stats as high as you want though, not all at once.

To be honest, its all a bit of a moot point though. I mean, what level does QP need to be at, is what I'm interested in. At what level should it work more often than not first time (even 51% of the time) on a weak fort mob, and at what level for a strong fort mob. Somewhere inbetween those numbers is the 'playable' range. Then I'll worry about what my Wis and Int need to be, y'know?

Till then, all I know is I'm using it whenever its off cooldown in order to build up a charge and hoping to get to use that charge effectively sometime over the next few fights, and if I didn't have more ki than I could use anyway I just wouldn't bother.

But right now I'm not geared for it or built for it at all - because when they nerfed QP I lost interest in it, and I've only played one life on my monk since then. So I have no idea what those numbers need to be, nor what stacks with what. So in that regard, I'm all in favour of this thread, because just like a Bear Druid, I really want it to be viable

[Arlathen]

This is why I think we need some video testing. Once Quistris, my Henshin Mystic experiment is complete, I'll be LR'ing her over to a Ninja-Spy Build for Max Wisdom and seeing what I can do with sneaky Quivering Palms...

Video evidence required!

[Amideus]

This is why I think we need some video testing. Once Quistris, my Henshin Mystic experiment is complete, I'll be LR'ing her over to a Ninja-Spy Build for Max Wisdom and seeing what I can do with sneaky Quivering Palms...

Video evidence required!

I'll add updates with my monk once I have him leveled out a bit as well. He's currently 19 and he is a full wisdom tactics DC build specifically for Stunning Fist and Quivering Palm. I lack Completionist and apparently one Fighter Heroic Past Life because I miscounted, but 1 missing DC there shouldn't impact overly hard I hope, and I can factor that into the final DC count when I get him there.

[Arlathen]

.... I lack Completionist ...

Doh! Knew I missed something.

[Xenaphon]

Combat mastery items should add to QP DC.

[DrawingGuy]

While I hardly consider spending epic feats on WIS and 6 WIS tiers in EDs as "realistic", there are a few things you missed.

You forgot +1 Exceptional Wisdom (such as from True Imperial Blood augment)

You can have up to 6 Wisdom twisted: 2 from Acute Instincts (you will need to use rage pots/clickies/have someone else shout or rage you) as well as 4 from your remaining twists.

You can get up to +3 Artifact WIS from potions (albiet for only 1 minute), +4 Profane from cookies (10 minutes and stacks with Litany profane). Admittedly both are not realistic consumables for constant use, but cookies last long enough to be used for the hard quests that you need the DC boost. They boost both WIS *and* INT.

There are a few other WIS options. A Human or PDK can get +3 WIS while using an Action Boost - though with a 75 AP spend in the other trees, you'd only be able to afford up to +2 (3 to get WIS from core and 2 AP left for the boost). A Deep Gnome gets 2 higher base Wisdom and can reach 10 Enhancement Wisdom much more cheaply as well due to having 2 WIS available in racial core for only a spend of 8 AP. As you're not running Legendary Dreadnought and thus won't be constantly running boosts in combat, Deep Gnome is the Max Wisdom race (though Human/PDK can match it under boost if traited). Note that this does close some of the Dwarf/WF gap with +4 higher WIS potential covering 2 of the 3 that they gain in Tactics boost.

Your current layout of Wisdom + KTA + Kensai tactics + racial tactics is also not Kosher. You have a minimum 6 AP for T1 KtA, 8 for racial, 11 for Kensai, 41 for capstone puts you at 66. That leaves 14 AP from which you could get 1 more WIS from another Monk tree. This means you're down 3 WIS from rather than just two from your previous calculation.



Now on to your "possible" items:
+X PDK Charisma Bonus from Knight Training :: This works, but locks you into Short Sword if you invest into Ninja Spy cores or Long Sword if you spend the two feats. Technically you can open up the other sword options with going 5 Fighter and One With the Blade T5 Kensai, but that goes outside the "max DC" build. However I find this path to be dumb - if you're this desperate, go Swashbuckler and use the much easier to achieve DC of Coup de Grace and its amazing Freeze line.

03 ED: Grand Master of Flowers Innate :: I can confirm that this works on Quivering Palm.

01 Guild Ship Bonus :: This does NOT apply as they are coded for individual tactics, which no longer apply to Quivering Palm.

Items :: Absolutely no items apply to Quivering Palm. I admit I forgot to double check before TRing my toon after the update, but Fire Stance's +2 from Meditation of War also does not apply, so sadly does not help counter the WIS loss for your Quivering Palm.



** Side Note: I'm assuming that your +2 Artifact in WIS was from the Slaver set, which would also apply to INT. In addition you forget the +1 Exceptional as well as +2 Yugo here. Add in the special situation Abishai cookies (this means overall the cookie bonus gives +3 to your QP DC when you can afford it - and the buff can be refreshed with a single cookie if you time it right), and you would have 64 INT for up to +13 from KtA (+12 without cookies). Putting in 2 more INT on your base would push you the extra little bit for +13/14 from KtA.

[HuneyMunster]

You can twist up to 4 wis and not 2 wis with 5th slot having to be Legendary Tactics from LD.


Some situational bonuses you could add.

You could consider short term bonus to QP from Touch the Void Dragon from Shintoa. Adds 1d4+1 to all abilities for 1 min every 3 min. This also increases Int which can give extra dc from know the angles.

Human action boosts can also add extra wisdom which can be rotated with human unshared cooldown boost and ninja melee power boost for QP. Though not sure if these can be met with points needed elsewhere.

[Steve_Howe]

Combat mastery items should add to QP DC.

Combat Mastery items like the Consuming Darkness (or whatever it's called) used to a few years ago. Then a bunch of people (Pale Masters mostly) got bent out of shape because the Monk's QP DCs were approaching other insta-kill DCs. The difference being the Monk's QP cost no mana and FoD did.

So the Devs at the time, in their infinite wisdom, removed Combat Mastery and Shattering as effects that could increase QP DCs which reduced them by 17-21.

Since then, PM and other Necro-related DCs have gone up while QP DCs have stayed relatively stagnant. Monks need Combat Mastery, at the very least, to be counted toward their QP DCs again. Shattering should be re-added too but I'd be ok with the current Devs making incremental changes instead of several at once so they don't potentially go overboard on QP DC changes.

[Vish]

I would say reasonable is having an ability on all the time,
So it contributes to average quivering palm dc

I never use clickers or pots or any consumable,
That is just so going against having a useful dc
Situational, at best, and then they still get a save

It's too bad, monks could use an instakiller,
It would make so little difference what with the opness
Of warlocks bursting and wizards pking

What they need to do is add a +20 item bonus, like stunning. Problem solved.
Then monks could have some cake again...

[Amideus]

Combat Mastery items like the Consuming Darkness (or whatever it's called) used to a few years ago. Then a bunch of people (Pale Masters mostly) got bent out of shape because the Monk's QP DCs were approaching other insta-kill DCs. The difference being the Monk's QP cost no mana and FoD did.

So the Devs at the time, in their infinite wisdom, removed Combat Mastery and Shattering as effects that could increase QP DCs which reduced them by 17-21.

Since then, PM and other Necro-related DCs have gone up while QP DCs have stayed relatively stagnant. Monks need Combat Mastery, at the very least, to be counted toward their QP DCs again. Shattering should be re-added too but I'd be ok with the current Devs making incremental changes instead of several at once so they don't potentially go overboard on QP DC changes.

Well partially. If I recall correctly, I was playing at the time, and the DC values monks were reaching with QP was equally and surpassing what caster classes could reach. And here's the issue with that and insta-kill effects in general. Insta-kills are a lot like how old AC used to be, stack the DC to a point that either it hits 95% of the time and is broken, or it hits almost never and is useless. This is a particular problem for a melee class that continues to deal damage with melee attacks and provides insta-kill with no resource constraint. Finger provides the caster with a damage component when the ability is saved against, meaning a failed DC isn't the end of the world, and neg levels are a thing.

The problem with the monk is that monks can't effectively apply neg levels to enemies to get their QP online, and they have no backup damage component either, so they are 100% live or die DC. So you have a problem now, you don't want to give the monk a damage component on QP, because they already have plenty of damage as a melee and their other attacks, and you don't want them to trivialize your content by insta-killing enemies in one go every 6 seconds with no constraint, even if it takes a large investment to do so. That's why they gave us the stacking buff, makes it so that we can get some insta-kills off over time without just getting hit after hit.

It's arguable that without wisdom to hit and damage, and the relatively low DC achievable through current means that QP for a 15 class investment should do more, and I 100% agree that the DC needs a boost. The logical buff to me is adding the ability for either assassinate or stunning to grant a bonus to QP, and if that's too much DC then there can be some tweaks made. Insightful Combat Mastery however would clash with KtA and not stack if I am aware, since both are insight bonuses.