Double reincarnating my wolf build

[elvesunited]

My first wolf warrior attempt had its goods and bads

Race: Half-Elf Class: Druid 15 Fighter 4 Rogue 1
Str:16(17)+lvl Dex:8 Con:16 Int:10(13) Wis:12 Chr:14(16)

Quicken, paladin dilenatte, shield mastery, improved shield mastery
Power Attack, crit bludgeon, combat expertise, improved trip, Improved feint,
natural fighting(x3), overwhelming critical, Blinding Speed

Nature Warrior AP 25 ( 4 cores and temporary sp on critical hit )
Stalwart AP 19 ( PRR, MRR, enhancement increase to weapon, armor and shield )
Harper AP 36 ( 15 melee power, +4 enhancement increase, +7 damage to evil, +31 spellpoint)

Notable Equipment:
Agony Dagger(deception), Planar Focus of Prowess(+3 Con), Epic golden Guile( more deception),
Epic Blackscale Heavy Armor, Helm of the Black Dragon(+3 Str), Epic Hide of the Fallen,
Prisoner's manacles( for the unarmed half die ), Animated rope,
Legendary knife Toed Boots, Lengendary Ring of Prowess, Epic Demonic Slab

Filled Epic Destinies: Fury of the Wild, Unyielding Sentinel(best)
Twists: Improved Power Attack, Healing Coccoon

--- Good ----
1) very good self or even group healer ( which works cause he takes damage a lot )
2) bluff effects activate often and sneak attack damage is significant
3) Decent damage though hardly top tier DPS
4) Stalwart stance and tower shield are providing the PRR/MRR I need to survive
5) almost continous stream of temp sp

--- Bad ----
1) Improved Trip almost never works. I can run a heroic elite quest and it still rarely works even with 50 str and trip bonuses.
2) Improved Feint is rarely if ever used and seems awfully brief. Disappointing Given the contortions I went through to get it.
3) Run speed doesn't quite meet what I was hoping for. Probably Stalwart defense countering wolf speed.
4) Focuses attacks entirely on one opponent a time.
5) For reasons I have no idea of this build gets tripped a lot. I got a Paladin who didn't put point one in Balance with no trip protection and doesn't spend nearly this much time lying down. What's up?
6) I don't want to take a rogue level in a build that has no trapping ability whatsoever. It's bad for grouping.

So I'm thinking of changing it to after I get 5000 favor and 6,000,000 xp in primal and 84 seeds for a double reincarnate.
( I'm actually pretty close )

Race: PDK Class: Druid 13 Fighter 4 Bard 3
Str:18(23)+lvl Dex:8 Con:16 Int:8(11) Wis:12 Chr:12(14)

Drop combat expertise, improved trip, improved feint, Paladin deliante
Take single weapon fighting(3 feats), Dodge
Switch shield from Demonic Slab to Admiral Kobold Tiller
Possibly drop the animated rope for a double strike item. Not quite sure on that one.

Nature Warrior AP increased from 25 to 33 ( adding four legs good and alpha strike )
Stalwart AP increased from 19 AP to 29 AP ( add +20% hp, AC, +1 str, and +10% move )
Swashbuckler AP of 12 ( get skirmisher and En Pointe which I understand is a mini-cleave )
Harper reduced from 36 to 3 ( only keeping enchant weapon )
Vanguard of 3 added ( +2 damage +1 AC +2 to hit, I think)

Any pitfalls I should be aware of?

Only spell I'll miss is the heal spell ( for its attribute healing )
I think I can craft some better sheltering to make up for the tower shield.
I know I'm missing the single weapon, two weapon ranger exploit but I'd rather be tankier.
I read that the single weapon primary damage attribute bonus does not work for animal form. That'll reduce per hit damage.

But before taking the plunge I thought I'd see if anyone could offer any advice?

[unbongwah]

I guess the obvious question is: are you deliberately avoiding the known TWF bugs? It's fine if you are, but I presume you realize you're giving up a lot of DPS that way too.

[elvesunited]

I guess the obvious question is: are you deliberately avoiding the known TWF bugs? It's fine if you are, but I presume you realize you're giving up a lot of DPS that way too.

For my my first wolf life the answer is I didn't research the bug.

For my second, I've done some checking but as far as I can tell the following is true ....

===============================

Two weapon fighting works in wolf form regardless of what weapons you are using. You can be armed with a two-handed weapon, a single weapon, or a weapon and shield. ( and this is the bug is its glorious insectness )

But two weapon fighting feat and single weapon fighting are mutually exclusive feats and they only way to get both is by taking a least two ranger levels.

The only way to get the single weapon fighting feat is to work with shield mastery is two take 3 levels of bard and get the Skirmisher enhancement and use a buckler.

===============================

I suppose my biggest issue with this is that I've developed an aversion to squishy melee characters. And to go with a single weapon / two weapon fighting combo would either leave me as a ranger/bard/druid with no stalwart stance/enhancements or a fighter/ranger/druid holding an orb providing little in the way of defense. Also this character is designed as a healer. ( self and group ) If I start dropping too many druid levels his effectiveness drops.

But what about this:

Race: PDK Class: Druid 15 Fighter 4 Barbarian 1
Str:18(23)+lvl Dex:14(17) Con:14(16) Int:8(11) Wis:14 Chr:8(10)

Drop combat expertise, improved trip, improved feint, Paladin deliante
Take Two Weapon Fighting, Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Greater Two weapon fighting, Dodge
Keep using tower shields
Possibly drop the animated rope for a double strike belt. Not quite sure on that one.

Nature Warrior AP increased from 25 to 33 ( adding four legs good and alpha strike )
Stalwart AP increased from 19 AP to 29 AP ( add +20% hp, AC, +1 str, and +10% move )
Ravager AP 4 added ( Barbarian power attack 3 )
Vanguard of 14 added ( +4 damage +3 AC +4 to hit, Missile Shield III, +1 Strength)

Biggest Trouble with this one is that it weakens my bluff by about 14 points. Not sure how big an effect that would have. I could I suppose swap the barbarian level for a level in Bard ( or maybe bite the bullet rogue ) for the full bluff skill But it uses the Two weapon feat bug for the extra attacks so the damage should increase significantly and leave much more chances for deception.

Alternatively I could switch the improved and greater two weapon fighting for cleave and great cleave.
Also this build is Dethek Stone friendly should I be so lucky.

Would this work to get my DPS up to speed while keeping the wolf durable?

[elvesunited]

Refined my Druid build idea. It expands the heavy armor/heavy shield combined with a temporary spell point healing spell battery. while increasing his move and attack speed. ( Through off hand attacks as single weapon fighting is not compatible with heavy or tower shields ) Or so I hope. I'm deviating from the standard method of getting two weapon feats for the druid by taking ranger levels and getting them through purchased feats instead. I'll need too deep dive into some of the forum threads to make sure I'm not making a mistake .....

================================================== ======================================

Race: Purple Dragon Knight => Class: 15 Druid 4 Fighter 1 Barbarian

---- Stats ( 34 pt build ) ----
Str: 18(23)+lvl => Dex:14(17) => Con:14(16) => Int:8(11) => Wis:14 => Chr:8(10)

---- Feats ( 7 heroic 3 Fighter 1 Human ) -----
-------- Fighter 1 ----------- => Shield mastery => Power Attack => Dodge
Druid -1 Fighter 1 Barbarian 1 => Quicken
Druid -4 Fighter 1 Barbarian 1 => Two Weapon fighting
Druid -7 Fighter 1 Barbarian 1 => Toughness
Druid -7 Fighter 2 Barbarian 1 => Improved Critical
Druid -7 Fighter 4 Barbarian 1 => Improved Shield Mastery => Improved two Weapons
Druid 10 Fighter 4 Barbarian 1 => Greater Two Weapon => swap toughness to natural fighting
Druid 13 Fighter 4 Barbarian 1 => Natural Fighting

---- Epic Feats ----
Overwhelming Critical => Natural fighting => Adamantine Weapons

( New Crafting has opened the possibility of getting +15 Melee Alacrity without Blinding Speed. So combine with a +30 striding augment I can save the feat slot)

---- Skills ----
Concentration 22 => Intimidate 23 => Heal 23 => Bluff 11 => Tumble 1

---- Nature Warrior 33 AP ----
+33 hp => +6 damage => +3 AC => +3d6 sneak => +3% dodge => +55 positive => +2 Strength
+2 seeker (stack 3 times - 20 secs) and +20 temp sp on critical hits => knockdown immunity
alpha strike +10W area melee attack ( 12 sec cooldown ) +10d6 animal,plant damage

---- Stalwart Defender 29 AP ----
+29 hp => +6% fort => +25 PPR => +25 MRR => +2 AC => +2 Max dex armor / tower shield
+3 enhancment for armor, shield, and weapon
+8 Strength => +20% hp => +50% armor AC => +10% shield AC => +10% movement => +50% threat

---- Ravager 4 AP ----
+3 power attack damage

---- Vanguard 14 AP ----
+4 damage => +4 to hit => +3 AC => +2 fortitude save => +1 Strength
Missile Deflect every 2 secs

---- Notable equipment ----
Agony, Knife in the Dark => Improved Deception Weapon, disentigration
Planar Focus of Prowess => +3 insight Con +4 Artifact damage +15 Artifact PPR
Epic Golden guile => Improved Deception, Ghostly
Hide of the Fallen( epic and non-epic ) => +8 primal damage, armor piercing, Strength
Iron Mitts / Purple Dragon Guantlets => strength, Healing amplifiation
Heroic White Dragonscale / Epic Black Dragon Scale => heavy armor, heavy fortification
Helm of the Black Dragon => +3 artifact doublestrike, +3 Insight Strength
Demonic Slab ( Heroic and Epic ) => non-metal tower shield, Devotion slot
Ring of Prowess ( Heroic and Legendary ) => deadly damage

================================================== =======

So the big questions are:

Will this work?
Can I take advantage of the Two Weapon exploit without taking Ranger levels?
Does the two weapons bug extend to improved and greater two weapons feats?

ETA: Found an example that looks to be on point from unbongwah:

I haven't fleshed out the details, but the bear build I was thinking of these days is druid 9 / ftr 8 / barb 3. On a human, that gets 17 feats (8 heroic + 5 ftr + 4 epic), plus your ED feats. So that lets you take TWF x3, Shield Mastery x2, Natural Fighting x3, Power Atk/Cleave/GC, IC:Blunt + Overwhelming Crit, and 3 Weap Foc / Spec feats, with 1 feat left over. [Or alternatively, drop the WF/WS feats and maybe a NF to squeeze in WWA.

[Tscheuss]

Only thing I can think of is to make sure to restart the game between reincarnations, right after you fully level back up during the LR phase of your ER.

[unbongwah]

Str: 18(23)+lvl => Dex:14(17) => Con:14(16) => Int:8(11) => Wis:14 => Chr:8(10)

Given the ridiculous amount of stat bonuses you can get from gear etc, there's no need to pump up WIS so much. I would start 18/14/16/10/8/8; more HPs, more skill pts. Bumping up INT also gives you the option of taking Combat Expertise which opens up Imp CE from LD for +20 PRR if you really think you need to up your defenses.

For heroic leveling you might need to put a few APs into WIS for spellcasting; but by lvl 20 you should have at least +9 WIS just from gear, so it's not a problem in the long run, particularly for Iconic builds which are more focused on epics than heroics anyway.

Druid 10 Fighter 4 Barbarian 1 => Greater Two Weapon => swap toughness to natural fighting

Not possible: when you do a feat swap, you have to swap for something you would be allowed to take at the level of the feat you're swapping. Natural Fighting requires druid lvl 9 and in your plan you're only druid 7 when you take Toughness; therefore you can't swap it for NF. Tomes can apply retroactively for feat pre-reqs, but even those still only apply at the appropriate lvl: i.e., +1 at lvl 3, +2 at lvl 7, etc.

---- Stalwart Defender 29 AP ----
+29 hp => +6% fort => +25 PPR => +25 MRR => +2 AC => +2 Max dex armor / tower shield
+3 enhancment for armor, shield, and weapon
+8 Strength => +20% hp => +50% armor AC => +10% shield AC => +10% movement => +50% threat

This seems like overkill; I'd rather invest more into Kensei.

---- Vanguard 14 AP ----
+4 damage => +4 to hit => +3 AC => +2 fortitude save => +1 Strength
Missile Deflect every 2 secs

FYI, these days I have NO idea which Vanguard abilities actually work / apply in wolf form. Also note: I'm not sure the run speed bonuses from either barb Fast Movement or Swift Defense apply to wolf forms. Might want to make an alt build to do some testing first.

Can I take advantage of the Two Weapon exploit without taking Ranger levels?

Yes. Although as mentioned previously, you can't advantage of SWF+TWF stacking bug w/out at least 2 rgr lvls.

Does the two weapons bug extend to improved and greater two weapons feats?

Yes, although AFAIK the extra offhand procs from Tempest cores (or Deft Strikes if you went the monk route) don't apply. But it's sometimes hard to tell what works with wolf builds...

Recommend you use ED37's char builder, which AFAICT has no major bugs and is updated more frequently than Ron's planner. It will help you avoid any mistakes like e.g. trying to swap feats which aren't allowed.

[elvesunited]

Not possible: when you do a feat swap, you have to swap for something you would be allowed to take at the level of the feat you're swapping. Natural Fighting requires druid lvl 9 and in your plan you're only druid 7 when you take Toughness; therefore you can't swap it for NF. Tomes can apply retroactively for feat pre-reqs, but even those still only apply at the appropriate lvl: i.e., +1 at lvl 3, +2 at lvl 7, etc.

I tried doing the swap with Improved Two Fighting as it was limited by stat instead of level. But it didn't work in the character builder. As such I'm probably going to need to adjust my stats to make the feat choice I'm looking for. One more point of dex allows me to take improved two weapon fighting at level 9.

Str: 18(23)+lvl => Dex:15(17) => Con:14(16) => Int:8(11) => Wis:12 => Chr:8(10)

---- Feats ( 7 heroic 3 Fighter 1 Human ) -----
Level -1 => ------- Fighter 1 ----------- => Shield mastery => Power Attack => Dodge
Level -3 => Druid -1 Fighter 1 Barbarian 1 => Quicken
Level -6 => Druid -4 Fighter 1 Barbarian 1 => Two Weapon fighting
Level -9 => Druid -7 Fighter 1 Barbarian 1 => Improved Two Weapon Fighting
Level 10 => Druid -7 Fighter 2 Barbarian 1 => Improved Critical
Level 12 => Druid -8 Fighter 3 Barbarian 1 => Improved Shield Mastery
Level 13 => Druid -9 Fighter 4 Barbarian 1 => Greater Two Weapon Fighting
Level 15 => Druid 10 Fighter 4 Barbarian 1 => Natural Fighting
Level 18 => Druid 13 Fighter 4 Barbarian 1 => Natural Fighting

Given the ridiculous amount of stat bonuses you can get from gear etc, there's no need to pump up WIS so much. I would start 18/14/16/10/8/8; more HPs, more skill pts. Bumping up INT also gives you the option of taking Combat Expertise which opens up Imp CE from LD for +20 PRR if you really think you need to up your defenses

I ran my skills and I'm maxing every skill I want to max so raising the Int doesn't do much for me. ( Human extra skill comes in very handy ) I went Combat Expertise on my last life and it didn't really help that much what with PRR's rather steep diminishing returns curve. ( besides I'm a power attack guy ) And while there is a some very high stat items out there, last life I never used them for wisdom. So much named item gear and with Wisdom being prioritized less than Strength and Constitution it meant wisdom was always handled by a single slotted augment. ( Wisdom +5, +6 or +7 ) I'm certainly not going to max it but I can't let it bottom out either.

FYI, these days I have NO idea which Vanguard abilities actually work / apply in wolf form. Also note: I'm not sure the run speed bonuses from either barb Fast Movement or Swift Defense apply to wolf forms. Might want to make an alt build to do some testing first.

Sounds a job for Skinny. The 10 str 0 damage bonus fighter/druid PDK with barbarian level pending.

Sadly, Skinny can report that vanguard is completely useless in beast form.
1-10 damage on the training dummy before taking enhancements. 1-10 after.
( the vanguard enhancements did work in human form )

Enhancement damage from Stalwart does work.

For Run speed. Skinny set up a course from one end of the marketplace to the other and used a stopwatch.
No Boots / Nothing : 21 secs average
30% boots : 18.5 secs average
30% boots - Stalwart speed : 17.5 secs average
30% boots - Stalwart speed - barbarian speed : 16.5 secs

It was very consistent. I ran each set up about 4 times. There was a definite improvement with stalwart. And a definite improvement with barbarian. It works.

This seems like overkill; I'd rather invest more into Kensei.

Well with vanguard a complete wash. I need to consider other options. I looked at kensei but I'm not sure I see it.
Kensei Focus gets me +1 to hit. Kensei specialization get +1 hit and +1 damage ( I'm guessing I need pick unarmed martial arts ) spiritual bond is confusing. But after that with no Focus or Specialization feats I've don't see anything.

Testing shows that taking martial arts specialization does get me the +1 damage. And the weapon bond works weird. It maxes a +2 enhancement and won't even refresh the stack until that top stack has expired. ( how does this stack 10 times? )

So Thinking .......


---- Ravager 4 AP =>+3 power attack damage
---- Harper 8 AP => +1 Weapon enhance +20 spell point +3 Melee Power +4 Spell Power + 10 hp +1 hit evil
---- Kensei 6 AP => Weapon Bond +1-2 +1 damage +2 to hit

or

---- Ravager 4 AP =>+3 power attack damage
---- Harper 14 AP => +1 weapon enhance +20 spell point +6 Melee Power +12 Spell Power + 10 hp +3 hit evil
----------------- => +1 Charisma +2 Damage vs evil

[unbongwah]

I tried doing the swap with Improved Two Fighting as it was limited by stat instead of level. But it didn't work in the character builder. As such I'm probably going to need to adjust my stats to make the feat choice I'm looking for. One more point of dex allows me to take improved two weapon fighting at level 9.

From your OP I interred you had taken a +3 DEX, so base DEX 14 means you can take TWF @ lvl 3 and ITWF + GTWF @ lvl 12, which appeared to be your plan. So I'm not sure why you're bumping up base DEX? Do you only have a +2 tome?

Again, recommend you use the char planner; it will also make your posts more readable.

[elvesunited]

From your OP I interred you had taken a +3 DEX, so base DEX 14 means you can take TWF @ lvl 3 and ITWF + GTWF @ lvl 12, which appeared to be your plan. So I'm not sure why you're bumping up base DEX? Do you only have a +2 tome?

Again, recommend you use the char planner; it will also make your posts more readable.

I have not yet taken the dexterity tome and have the option of +2 or +3. I will take the tome prior to reincarnating.

At level 9 (with base dex of 14) I have a BAB of 7 and a dex of 16 and a maximum druid level of 8
( as the +3 part of a Tome won't take effect until level 11 )

---- And these are the heroic feats I have left to take -----
Improved two weapon fighting has minimum Dex 17 and a minimum BAB of 6.
Greater two weapon fighting has minimum Dex 17 and a minimum BAB of 11.
Improved Shield mastery has a minimum BAB of 8
Improved Critical has a minimum BAB of 8
Natural Fighting(x2) has a minimum Druid level of 9.

I don't meet the requirements for any of them. but if my dex starts at 15 then
At level 9 (with base dex of 15) I have a BAB of 7 and a dex of 17 and a maximum druid level of 8
And I now meet the minimum for Improve Two Weapons Fighting.
( and now I only need to use a +2 Tome and save +3 for a different character )

Then at the very next level(10) my BAB hits 8, and a bunch of feats become available and the logjam clears.

Heavy Armor Wolf
15/4/1 Druid/Fighter/Barbarian
Neutral Good Purple Dragon Knight


Level Order

1. Fighter . . . . 6. Druid . . . . .11. Fighter. . . . 16. Druid
2. Barbarian . . . 7. Druid . . . . .12. Druid . . . . .17. Druid
3. Druid. . . . . .8. Druid. . . . . 13. Fighter . . . .18. Druid
4. Druid. . . . . .9. Druid. . . . . 14. Druid. . . . . 19. Druid
5. Druid. . . . . 10. Fighter . . . .15. Druid . . . . .20. Druid


Stats
. . . . . . . .34pt . . Tome . . Level Up
. . . . . . . .---- . . ---- . . --------
Strength. . . . 18. . . .+5. . . .4: STR
Dexterity . . . 15. . . .+2. . . .8: STR
Constitution. . 14. . . .+2. . . 12: STR
Intelligence. . .8. . . .+3. . . 16: STR
Wisdom. . . . . 12. . . . . . . .20: STR
Charisma. . . . .8. . . .+2. . . 24: STR
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .28: STR

Feats

.1. . . . : Shield Mastery
.1 PDK. . : Dodge
.1 Fighter: Power Attack
.3. . . . : Two Weapon Fighting
.6. . . . : Quicken Spell
.9. . . . : Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10 Fighter: Improved Critical: Bludgeoning
12. . . . : Improved Shield Mastery
13 Fighter: Greater Two Weapon Fighting
15. . . . : Natural Fighting
18. . . . : Natural Fighting
21 Epic . : Overwhelming Critical
24 Epic . : Natural Fighting


Enhancements (80 AP)

Nature's Warrior (33 AP)

• Nature's Warrior, Instinctive Fighting, Instinctive Fighting II, Instinctive Fighting III
  
  1. Extra Wild Empathy III, Shifting Rake I
  2. Flight III, Vengeful Hunter III, Double Strike Boost III
  3. Fight III, Improved Dodge III, Strength
  4. Four Legs Good, Essence of the Shrike II, Strength
  5. Alpha Strike III

Stalwart Defender (29 AP)

• Toughness, Stalwart Defense
  
  1. Durable Defense III, Stalwart Defensive Mastery II
  2. Stalwart Shield Mastery II, Armor Expertise III
  3. Strong Defense III, Shield Expertise III, Strength
  4. Swift Defense, Tenacious Defense III, Reinforced Armor III, Strength

Harper Agent (14 AP)

• Agent of Good I, Charisma, Agent of Good II
  
  1. Harper Enchantment, Traveler's Toughness II
  2. Versatile Adept III
  3. Versatile Adept III

Ravager (4 AP)

• Furious Rage
  
  1. Barbarian Power Attack III

[elvesunited]

Well 5000 favor and a +5 Strength Tome
6,000,000,000 primal destiny
1 Epic Heart of Wood
1 True Heart of Wood

Bought time for me to reincarnate. After I get some sleep.

[elvesunited]

--- after reincarnation heroic report ---

Well I didn't have my heroic cloak of the fallen as I had slotted a level 20 augment into in the last life. Turns out I didn't need it for heroics. After level 17 I didn't even change any equipment. ( Though it did help that I've had a lot of good equipment banked from this and other characters' past lives )

Slice Dagger ( 66 Devotion ) Alchemical Tower shield ( Crystal )

.... Positives ....

Movement speed: The biggest problem with his movement speed ( wolf + 20% ) is that if in another life I decide to try a different variation of wolf I'm going to really miss moving that fast.

DPS: I held my own against warlocks for kill counts.

Durability: Good hp. Tough to kill. As long as I don't get stupid and be careful around reflex-save damage casters. ( I don't think the large, tower shield additional protection works in wolf form. probably working as intended. )

Healing: Both for self and party. As a near constant spring of temporary spellpoints what I lack in sheer healing quality I more than make up in quantity.

Alpha Strike: As a 360 Degree cleave with greater damage ( and doublestrike ) this works pretty well. Skipped this last life to go Tier 5 in Harper. But this is definitely a keeper.


.... Drawbacks .....

Bluff: I can really feel the difference that a loss of 15 points of bluff has caused. The bluff effect from the bluff skill or baiting bite happened far less frequently.


Overall, a definite improvement over the previous build. let's see if he holds up that well in epics