EE Fire on Thunder Peak solo speed run 11:14 Goldsunn, Elite Raiders of Khyber

[Blue_wizards]

Nah, that's just my energy burst and missiles mixed in.

What do you mean by this?

[Knight_slayer]

In any case I saw you TR'ed out of your Ruin King so I guess you aren't going for the solo record anymore.

The multi procing put me off the raid. I know it works on any spell because the other week I used recon at the end of p1 shroud and it proced 5 times. Ruin King isn't a good build for me to be playing because I'm focused on Shroud. To maintain an 90% max dps rotation on portals was costing me 5-6 potion on LH. Just feels silly to be farming something on a build that isn't efficient. Ruin King is good when you need max DPS, in slavers is amazing because of the shrines but raiding is different. Anyhow my new build has maximum efficiency, undead healing and is very close to Ruin King in DPS, link in sig.

[Blue_wizards]

Sestra, I don't see how an unbiased person can say that the Ruin King has better DPS, all tests results and paper are in favor of the Gold Shiradi and in a big way.
Here is a recap of challenges offered and answered:

You challenged that the Gold Shiradi, PLAYED BY ME, couldn't beat the Ruin King's time, PLAYED BY ME, from the 11:14 record run nor come close to doing so

It will be interesting to see your Ruin King video but from your completion time I'd say Ruin King is so far ahead its silly to even compare the builds based on DPS. Maybe the FoTP completion on your sorc build just had a shocking run against the devastators and can actually complete them 70% faster, but I don't see it happening.

I answered this challenge and did so in a very convincing manner beating my own time of the Ruin King with My Gold Shiradi by 28%

I put this to the test though I was very certain of the results already and found that I was correct.
The 10/6/4 build beats the 12/6/2 build (on the record run) devastators time by about 28%.

I measured the time from dragon lift off till dragon touch down (in order for the dragons to touch down you need to kill the devastators and all the skeletons that were part of the devastators spawn).

Using the 12/6/2 build on the record run with the GOOD joy time was: 1:27
Using the 10/6/4 build on a test run with the GOOD joy time was: 1:08

Both runs were on even terms
Both did not use wellspring, no night reveals crit damage clickie, no spell power boost, no Tainted spell casting boost, no ear dweller.
The test run was made identical to how I used my resources on the speed run.

Here is the video of the test run:

You then Challenged that using the Gold Shiradi I couldn't beat YOUR BEST TIME on your Ruin King

In all my runs, there is a one minute difference in the devastator completion. Best time 1:06, worst about a minute slower but the majority are about 1:30. HERE is my best run without joy, I doubt the sorc build can even get close to that without joy. If the sorc is ahead on DPS, matching my best run shouldn't be a problem.

I again anserwed the challenge

Well like I said it wouldn't be a problem for the Gold Shiradi to beat the best time of the Ruin King.
It wasn't a smooth run and not nearly the best it can get but it did beat your time of 1:06.

Gold Shiradi Devestators beat down 1:02 (no joy, no spell power boost)



I think it's pretty clear that though both builds are powerful the Gold Shiradi Is superior to the Ruin King both in dps and in healing.

You then claimed that these challenges you offered weren't good tests due to a bug that can cause Ruin/ G.Ruin to multi proc

EDIT: Because of the bug we have found in this raid I have to say the jury is still out on the DPS comparison. I just don't see a slightly faster casting animation and 4% crit chance making up for the loss of 30% crit damage.

Though later you acknowledged that there was no occurrence of this bug in the test runs done by both you and I

You are right, greater ruin, ruin and eburst could be 100k. There are 2 jumps, 55k and 49k. Maybe ruin and eburst got mixed in to 1 jump.

And claimed that the challenge he offered isn't a good test since I had a perfect run though it was against his BEST RUN EVER.

Its an awesome run gold, you are dropping 100% on that encounter where as in my example I am mid raid solo, only got wellspring last 10 seconds, saved PL missiles etc etc. The sorc is a much better build to play in general speaking. SP efficient, healing etc. In my experience ruin king is higher DPS.

Well as I said before but would like to stress again in this recap that:
1) There was no bug that caused Ruin/G. Ruin multi proc in the test runs
2) Even though sever server side lag (cannot be effected by players) may cause any certain spell proc a different number of times then it should this bug, if it even occured at all, can occur regardless of the build that casts spells/ does a test run and there fore can be disregarded
3) The gold Shiradi advantages aren't only faster cast speed and 4% extra crit chance it's
4% crit chance ahead for fire/force/light/physical
2 free gear slots (pretty huge with all the options available with LGS and Slavers gear)
Undead traits
Undead healing (improves your dps because of less active healing, can save you when you are on your back, can get you out of tighter spots than an active 6 sec cl reconstruct and repairs).
Sorc cast speed
Better scorching ray/frost lance
Much higher cm caster level
Higher spell power (favored weapon, no points in an sp less tree except 1 ap in human)
2 Spell power boosts
1 Extra feat (helps for getting combat casting)
1 Extra skill point per level
4) The test run on the Gold Shiradi was far from perfect.
No spell power boost was used
Wellspring was not active at the same time as Arcane Supremacy
A great number of mobs were present before the devastators spawned
The dps focus on the devastators was imbalanced, one died a lot faster than the other.


So after going through all that I don't see how you can come to the conclusion that:

In my experience ruin king is higher DPS.

[Knight_slayer]

Goldy, you focus everything on that 1 encounter and you manage to get a few seconds on the time in my example which is taken from the middle of a raid solo. Speaks for it self. Just having a full duration wellspring will make up these seconds, wouldn't you think? Using TR missiles rather than MM will make up even more time, etc.

EDIT:
Not even mentioned that you are a much more efficient DDO player than I am. I have 260 ping at its lowest so can not use a dps macro because many spells just do not fire. You are much more efficient, are focused on just that 1 minute encounter, use full duration of your most powerful buffs and get 3 seconds on my run from the middle of a raid solo where I do not have full duration of my buffs and am saving my most powerful clickies for a different stage of the raid.

[moo_cow]

1 Extra feat (helps for getting combat casting)

How is that even a pro about a build. How is this useful in any scenario?

[Blue_wizards]

Goldy, you focus everything on that 1 encounter and you manage to get a few seconds on the time in my example which is taken from the middle of a raid solo. Speaks for it self.

No Sestra, not by a long shot.
It was evident to me that the Gold Shiradi was ahead in DPS over the Ruin King before I even posted this thread and I said so in the first post.
Me saying so in the first post made you question the fact and it was you whom:
1) Offered the challenges
2) Expressed your predicted outcome, outcomes that if were to be true would be evidence that the Gold Shiradi is behind rather than ahead.
3) Found that your predicted outcomes were grossly contrary to the actual results, yet you dismissed the same tests that you were willing to accept as proof for your biased opinion had they gone your way.

These facts speak for themselves.

What I do base the fact of the Gold Shiradi DPS superiority is as follows:
1) I actually played both builds through a considerable amount of content.
2) I've tested and perfected MO for BOTH to utilize them as efficiently as possible in order to set speed records and so am well aware of their capabilities.
3) Farming chests with both builds I saw a significant difference in speed between the two in favor of the Gold Shiradi.

In my experience ruin king is higher DPS.

Having all your proposed test outcomes so contrary to your predictions I wonder on what you base this.

EDIT:
Not even mentioned that you are a much more efficient DDO player than I am. I have 260 ping at its lowest so can not use a dps macro because many spells just do not fire.

I did run against my own best time on the ruin king and beat it significantly.
I think this is a good example as to how you under estimate Sorc cast speed.

You are much more efficient, are focused on just that 1 minute encounter, use full duration of your most powerful buffs and get 3 seconds on my run from the middle of a raid solo where I do not have full duration of my buffs and am saving my most powerful clickies for a different stage of the raid.

Just to clarify, on both challenges you which you offered I used the exact same resources as the test bar (when I ran against my own time with the ruin king and when I ran against your time with the Ruin King) with exception that you used Tainted spell casting and I neglected to use spell power boost.

What best clickies are you talking about?
We both used the night reveals robe clickie, what other clickies?
We both did not use wizard past life MM, why mention this?
You did get only 10 seconds of wellspring yet that was your best run which you offered as a challenge.
It was your best time among all your runs, it was my 2ed attempt.

How is that even a pro about a build. How is this useful in any scenario?

If you're asking why an extra feat is a good thing, you'll just have to take my word for it.
If you're asking how Mobile Spellcasting is useful, here is the explanation from my Gold Shiradi Build thread:

"Jumping hampers your spell spam (can't cast when lifting up).
Not jumping decreases your movement speed considerably while spell spamming.
With Mobile Spellcasting you can afford to not jump while kiting and still spam spells away (unless there is lag), it's a great tool."

When is this useful?
Anytime you are backpedaling (casting and moving away from danger) which is often for a caster.

[Knight_slayer]

Yes you managed to achieve more than the challenge I set, I didn't even think you'd match it. But I didn't really consider everything. You, being a more efficient player, for one, and just having wop running from start is bringing your power in line with ruin king. So matching this time really wasn't that good a test because my test is from the middle of a raid solo, my wop was on timer because I used it in the start as I'm also trying to speedrun the whole raid and I hold back tr missiles. Beating a 1:06 by 3 seconds considering all these things, main one being the 15+seconds of wop I missed, is not showing the build is ahead on DPS. Every spell has 30% extra crit damage, you don't make that up with sorc casting speed, its why you rolled the build.

[Blue_wizards]

its why you rolled the build.

The build has an advantage in this particular raid and happened to suit my needs for Solo EE MoD but to be completely honest it also gave me a chance to show that I can beat you while playing your own build, a nice perk

Yes you managed to achieve more than the challenge I set, I didn't even think you'd match it. But I didn't really consider everything. You, being a more efficient player, for one, and just having wop running from start is bringing your power in line with ruin king. So matching this time really wasn't that good a test because my test is from the middle of a raid solo, my wop was on timer because I used it in the start as I'm also trying to speedrun the whole raid and I hold back tr missiles. Beating a 1:06 by 3 seconds considering all these things, main one being the 15+seconds of wop I missed, is not showing the build is ahead on DPS. Every spell has 30% extra crit damage, you don't make that up with sorc casting speed, its why you rolled the build.

I'd beat your time without Wellspring of Power at all but then you'd just say that I'm more efficient than you and you have already proven a distinct disregard to test results/ list of advantages of the gold shiradi/ experience of a person whom played both builds so I really have no point doing that.

I'd also say that what you are talking about is irrelevant because I also played against my own time on the Ruin King and used the exact same resources while playing both builds and beating the same bosses/mobs after playing the raid in the same way as a speed run (linked the video that starts from when I drink the tea not just before the fight) but you have already ignored that important point several times.

I doubt you'll listen to math but for those whom are impartial here goes:

The Gold Shiradi gets implement bonus to universal spell power of 42 which the Ruin king does not benefit from (implement bonus from GS weapon due to human fvs articles of faith favored weapon).
The Gold Shiradi gets 75 universal spell power from his action points (7 pm, 32 fvs, 36 AM, 0 human) and the Ruin King gets 48 Universal spell power from his action points (13 FVS, 35 AM, 0 WF, 0 TS).
That's a total of 69 universal spell power in favor of the Gold Shiradi.

Considering that with
Singular spell power pots
Universal +25 spell power potion
Triple meridian proc
Empyrean magic
30 stacks of MoK
Most spell powers are in the range of mid 700 to mid 800, lets take an average of 800 while well buffed and 1025 if you use max and empower all the time so 69 universal spell power is roughly 7% of that (69/1025-69).
Meaning while not critting the Gold Shiradi does about 7% more damage universally before even taking into account any other advantage.

You are aware that the 30% extra crit damage is additive not multiplicative right?
Lets see what happens when you crit.[/COLOR]

When the Gold Shiradi crits it's his superior spell power that is used as the base damage so lets see what happens when you crit:
Without supremacy and wellspring:
Gold Shiradi 2.85(base crit multiplier of 2+ 0.25 from Scion of fire + 0.6 from Master of Knowledge) x 1.07 (factoring in spell power) = 3.05 effective ruin king crit multiplier
Ruin King = 3.15
Ratio: 3.15-3.05/3.05 = 3% dps increase in favor of the Ruin King

With Supremacy:
Gold Shiradi 3.85(base crit multiplier of 2+ 0.25 from Scion of fire + 0.6 from Master of Knowledge + 1 from supremacy) x 1.07 (factoring in spell power) = 4.12 effective ruin king crit multiplier
Ruin King = 4.15
Ratio = 4.15-4.12/4.12 = 0.7% dps increase in favor of the ruin king

With Wellspring:
Gold Shiradi 3.05(base crit multiplier of 2+ 0.25 from Scion of fire + 0.6 from Master of Knowledge +0.2 from Wellspring) x 1.062 (factoring in spell power adjusted to wellspring) = 3.24 effective ruin king crit multiplier
Ruin King = 3.35
Ratio = 3.35-3.24/3.35 = 3.4% dps increase in favor of the ruin king

With Supremacy and Wellspring:
Gold Shiradi 4.35(base crit multiplier of 2+ 0.25 from Scion of fire + 0.6 from Master of Knowledge +1 from supremacy + 0.2 from wellspring) x 1.062 (factoring in spell power adjusted to wellspring) = 4.62 effective ruin king crit multiplier
Ruin King = 4.65
Ratio = 4.65-4.62/4.62 = 0.65% dps increase in favor of the ruin king

So while critting the Ruin King is ahead between 0.65% and 3.4% lets go towards the Ruin Kings favor and average it out to 3%. Lets be generous towards the Ruin King again and say the the Ruin king crits 70% of the time on all elements.

So 0.7 (70% spells crit) x 1.03 (Damage increase relative to Gold Shiradi while critting) + 0.3 (30% of spells don't crit) x 0.93 (Damage decrease compared to the Gold Shiradi) = 1
This shows that while taking into account the single and only advantage the Ruin King has over the Gold Shiradi and taking only the spell power advantage the Gold Shiradi has over the Ruin king among many others their calculated DPS turns out even.

Now add to the equation:
4% crit chance ahead for fire/force/light/physical - Very meaningfull
Sorc cast speed - Super important, get out more spells get out more dps
Better scorching ray/frost lance - minor
Much higher cm caster level - Very meaningful for Shiradi
2 Spell power boosts compared to only tainted spellcasting

And there is no contest!
The Gold Shiradi is superior in DPS to the Ruin King

These are also important non direct DPS advantages:
2 free gear slots (pretty huge with all the options available with LGS and Slavers gear)
Undead traits
Undead healing (improves your dps because of less active healing, can save you when you are on your back, can get you out of tighter spots than an active 6 sec cl reconstruct and repairs).
1 Extra feat (helps for getting combat casting)
1 Extra skill point per level