What is a realistic XP/minute rate.....

[Gremmlynn]

If you haven't mastered DDO yet, 1k/min would be a good goal. Watching this will teach you which quests give great XP/min. My advice (3x completionist) is to not worry about XP/min, and play in a way that is enjoyable for you. You will learn the tricks from a more experienced player if you are grouping with someone and having fun. If you make DDO a chore, even fast XP/min is not very fun.

About how I see it. As DDO has no real end game to get to, I see no real reason not to just have fun playing the game and getting to the end of the process whenever that gets me there.

[Gremmlynn]

1K/min was the golden standard for heroic PRIOR to bravery bonuses, VIP bonus, and guild bonus. This value was well tested and agreed upon by those on the forums, and a quick google search will show forum posts (2010 era) that confirm this value. It included voice of the master (5% XP bonus). I am not aware what other (if any) bonuses existed.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Experience_point

Check the link above for how you gain bonus XP.


If you stick to first runs

Elite (150%) = First time elite bonus (80%) + Bravery (20%) + Streak (50%) http://ddowiki.com/page/Bravery_Bonus
Greater Tome of Learning (1st time running a quest) adds 50%.
VIP adds 10%
Guild bonus adds 5% (voice of mastered is ignored since it existed in 2010)
Daily bonus adds 20%
XP POT adds 50%

Add all these up and you a staggering +285% to base XP.

The are a few things that muddy the water:

1) The golden standard of 1k/min (2010 era) often involved farming normal runs (with XP loss on multiple runs, and a single hard and elite run (for XP with no loss), while today's game involves elite runs.
2) The golden standard included optional/conquest/trapping XP bonuses (the XP you actually receive in-quest was 1k/min)
3) We now have 5 star challenges which give fantastic XP/min

Here are the quest bonuses:

Conquest: +25%
Ingenious Debilitation: +30%
Vigilant Sight: +15%
Ransack: +15%

The total quest bonus XP ranges from 0% to 85%.

Back in 2010, you might have a quest that gave 600 base XP/min, but with 65% quest bonus (conquest, etc) was giving 1000 XP/min.


I don't remember how these quest bonuses stack with the above (+285%) XP bonuses.

If they add, that 600 XP/min quest in today's game would be 600*(2.85+0.65) = 2100 XP/min

If they multiply, that 600 XP/min quest in today's game would be 600*(2.85*1.65) = 2800 XP/min


Conclusion:

Given the ease of running through elite content today, it is perfectly reasonable for players to run at 2k XP/min.

If players are getting 3k/min or better, it would be because of faster run speeds today and because of 5 star challenge runs.

Some are additive; first time, bravery, streak, daily. Some are multiplicative; guild, voice/gift, potion. The others; VIP and tome, I'm not sure of. So the total can be much greater.

Also, you missed 10% each for Flawless Victory and Persistence bonuses.

Edit: The multiplicative bonuses will also effect optional xp, as well as any explorer zone and saga xp one may pick up as well.

[bracelet]

The basic strategy of the guild/group I run with:

On heroic the only saga we bother with is GH. Run GH at lvl 15/16 elite but do NOT take the saga. Run Orchard at 16 then LOTD farming as much as you can stand at 17. That should get you to 18 (with pot+tome+voice+ship). Now you can take GH saga which is close to 80K, I believe, and then start on Meridia. One run through will either cap you or get you really close so a quick Sane Asylum or Monastery will do it.

The saga boost is what gets you over the top here. Taking 19 at any point before cap is generally useless. That will lock you out of most Meridia groups and that is where the XP is at that level and, as noted, is not needed.

Per the thread, I am happy with 1000 to 2000 XP per minute in heroics. There are some quests that will give you more.

Per this comment, while Vale was once the gold standard for XP (and I still do devils and rainbow every life), it can't hurt to take look at Wheloon. It's a great change of scenery, and once you get used to the maps, the XP per minute is exceptionally good -especially Friends and Mirror.

[nokowi]

Some are additive; first time, bravery, streak, daily. Some are multiplicative; guild, voice/gift, potion. The others; VIP and tome, I'm not sure of. So the total can be much greater.

Also, you missed 10% each for Flawless Victory and Persistence bonuses.

Edit: The multiplicative bonuses will also effect optional xp, as well as any explorer zone and saga xp one may pick up as well.

Thanks!

I will update my previous post.

Did Flawless and Persistence exist in the 1k/min days? I seem to recall both back being 10% back in 2010, although flawless was a group bonus.

[AlcoArgo]

Per the thread, I am happy with 1000 to 2000 XP per minute in heroics. There are some quests that will give you more.

Per this comment, while Vale was once the gold standard for XP (and I still do devils and rainbow every life), it can't hurt to take look at Wheloon. It's a great change of scenery, and once you get used to the maps, the XP per minute is exceptionally good -especially Friends and Mirror.

True, but that is a matter of style, although I think Wheloon is harder because even in heroic these guys are just bags of HP. With all that HP to take down I would guess it takes longer and I would be interested in a XP/min breakdown.

I like to do Wheloon on epics as part of the natural progression in Eveningstar. The truth is that these days there is so much XP at these levels you can do whatever you like.

[Thrudh]

I do have certain goals now specifically because I have put in the hard math of how long it will take me to finish the rest of this Epic life, and 12 more heroics and 10 more Epics after that to be a completionist. I am highly looking into getting some Otto boxes as well as making sure I keep up with sagas.

And THEN you'll get to have fun?

Read my sig... Focusing exclusively on xp/min burns out many people. Not all, and maybe not you... But be careful.

[Gremmlynn]

Thanks!

I will update my previous post.

Did Flawless and Persistence exist in the 1k/min days? I seem to recall both back being 10% back in 2010, although flawless was a group bonus.

All of those bonuses have existed for as long as I've been playing, which is 9/09. The only changes were that the trap bonuses have been raised and, as you said, they were all group bonuses.

[Drekisen]

1K/min was the golden standard for heroic PRIOR to bravery bonuses, VIP bonus, and guild bonus. This value was well tested and agreed upon by those on the forums, and a quick google search will show forum posts (2010 era) that confirm this value. It included voice of the master (5% XP bonus). I am not aware what other (if any) bonuses existed.

http://ddowiki.com/page/Experience_point

Check the link above for how you gain bonus XP.


If you stick to first runs, the following bonuses add:

Elite (150%) = First time elite bonus (80%) + Bravery (20%) + Streak (50%) http://ddowiki.com/page/Bravery_Bonus
Greater Tome of Learning (1st time running a quest) adds 50%.
Daily bonus adds 20%

Add all these up and you a staggering +220% to base XP, or 3.20 times as much XP.

These bonuses add and then multiply:

Voice of Master adds 5%
VIP adds 10%
Guild bonus adds 5% (voice of mastered is ignored since it existed in 2010)
XP Potion adds 50%

Without XP potion, you get (3.2*1.2)= 3.84 times as much XP
With 50% XP potion, you get (3.2*1.7)= 5.44 times as much XP


The are a few things that muddy the water:

1) The golden standard of 1k/min (2010 era) often involved farming normal runs (with XP loss on multiple runs, and a single hard and elite run (for XP with no loss), while today's game involves elite runs.
2) The golden standard included optional/conquest/trapping XP bonuses (the XP you actually receive in-quest was 1k/min)
3) We now have 5 star challenges which give fantastic XP/min

Here are the quest bonuses:

Conquest: +25%
Ingenious Debilitation: +30%
Vigilant Sight: +15%
Ransack: +15%
Flawless: +10%
Persistence: +10%

The total quest bonus XP ranges from 0% to 105%.

Back in 2010, you might have a quest that gave 515 base XP/min, but with 85% quest bonus (conquest, etc) and 1.05 (VOM) multiplier was giving 1000 XP/min. 515*(1+0.85)*1.05 = 1000 XP/min in 2010

That 1000 XP/min in 2010 becomes 515*(1+2.20+0.85)*1.2 = 2500 XP/min in 2016
With XP Potion, it becomes 515*(1+2.20+0.85)*1.7 = 3545 XP/min in 2016



Conclusion:

Given the ease of running through elite content today, it is perfectly reasonable for players to run at 2k XP/min.

If players are doing better than the above, it would be because of faster run speeds today, 5 star challenge runs, and saga.

They may also do worse than this because some of the top 2010 XP/min quests were adjusted downward.

Optional XP is also not factored into the above numbers.

Thanks a lot for this breakdown...that really answered many questions for me

[Drekisen]

And THEN you'll get to have fun?

Read my sig... Focusing exclusively on xp/min burns out many people. Not all, and maybe not you... But be careful.

Actually what burned me out was having 15+ toons...many of which were at level 20 before TR became so accesible......and trying to maintain them.

I have since deleted all of my characters except the one I am doing completionist with.....I no long have alts for extra storage nor do I care about saving every shiny thing I come across....I log in and I am ready to go.

But I understand what you are saying...thanks....however burnout can be a good thing too though...seeing as how I have to do other things outside of DDO

[Spoonwelder]

Actually what burned me out was having 15+ toons...many of which were at level 20 before TR became so accesible......and trying to maintain them.

I have since deleted all of my characters except the one I am doing completionist with.....I no long have alts for extra storage nor do I care about saving every shiny thing I come across....I log in and I am ready to go.

But I understand what you are saying...thanks....however burnout can be a good thing too though...seeing as how I have to do other things outside of DDO

I was there too for a while - I have 16 in the roster....but now I concentrate on 2-4.

• Two mains - one completionist melee - another a 'arcane' completionist (all the necessary caster lives for DC/SP etc..). These two I basically leave at cap to raid and run slavers.
  
• Then I have an assassin I am working on.....just because I love assassinate and the insane DPS you can get out of SA....but I can't solo really well with him so he's my prime time guy when not raiding.....
  
• then I have a lowbie monk with the new pass. Got him to 8 waiting for some guldies to catch up to run a Chronoscope at level then will get him back up to cap and see if I like him - may LTR him to mess with a shuriken build if I don't like how the pass worked on a pure melee shintao........
  
• But the rest are parked at various levels and are there just in case someone needs a hand somewhere.

The game has been changed to really discourage a large stable of characters if you want any one of them to be top notch endgame raid capable. Just getting a LGS weapon to tier 3 took a ton of time I have made 3 so far since LShroud came out - a bunch of tier 2 but really with the Slaver gear all of that is now moot aside from the clickies....well it will be after 80 more runs (I finally have enough for 1 complete item).....ugh grindy.

[Jasparion]

It is important to know which quests to run, when to skip mobs and when to get breakables and quest slayers. This is where most players make the biggest mistake (in terms of XP/min). I believe heroic slayer zones are mostly a trap in today's game.

I don't know if heroic sagas are important, as I haven't cared about XP/min for a long time. Challenge Farming (5 star runs) and even Special Events (Night Revels) can also give good XP/min for certain builds.

When solo it is very important to know whether to go for all the kills, traps, breakables, etc. But as a group, there are probably only a couple of quests where you would zerg and not go for the bonuses - especially if people are able to split up and do their thing.

[Chilldude]

Conclusion:

Given the ease of running through elite content today, it is perfectly reasonable for players to run at 2k XP/min.

I won't argue that 2K XP /min is unreasonable, however, the thread asks what is realistic. The thread also specifically mentions the context of successive past lives as the basis for this query. That is an incredibly important distinction, that people continually dismiss when they pull a number out of thin air based on a single run through a very high XP/min quest. XP/min doesn't apply to merely the time you enter a dungeon until you exit in the context of successive past lives. Every minute spent in game is of paramount importance in that context as time spent in dungeon is but one part of the time required for successive past lives.

It's like fixating on highway gas mileage while ignoring city mileage altogether. If you want to figure out how much gas you will need to get to your destination then you need to include both. There is a potential for a great deal of time to be spent outside of actively earning XP in DDO, therefore a realistic estimate of XP/min would take that into consideration. Sure, in best case scenarios of groups of people zerging nonstop from one quest to the next never taking a break it is probably reasonable that you could average 2K XP/min. It's possible. Yet, it's not very realistic. Certainly not for someone asking the question.

And heart farming is more than a footnote itself. You need 20 tokens of the 12, and the whole time you are earning 0 XP/min toward that past life. Anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of mathematics can see that when you start averaging in 0's the rate plummets. 30 hours from Korthos to Reincarnation Grove might be reasonably possible, but I don't think it's very realistic at all. I think the average player would need to double that to 60, and that's with being very focused and staying on task. Realistically, if you log in a couple hours a night, chat with a few guildies, skim through the LFMs (that's quick these days, there's usually isn't more than one, and that's if you're lucky), scan through the compendium to decide what to run next, throw up an LFM, and jump in a quest, I think the average player can very easily be looking at 100 hours, give or take, especially when including the heart farm.

The real answer is, it's hella subjective. It's not only going to differ greatly from player to player, it's going to differ greatly from life to life. On top of that, some lives are going to feel like twice as long as they actually are.

[nokowi]

I won't argue that 2K XP /min is unreasonable, however, the thread asks what is realistic. The thread also specifically mentions the context of successive past lives as the basis for this query. That is an incredibly important distinction, that people continually dismiss when they pull a number out of thin air based on a single run through a very high XP/min quest. XP/min doesn't apply to merely the time you enter a dungeon until you exit in the context of successive past lives. Every minute spent in game is of paramount importance in that context as time spent in dungeon is but one part of the time required for successive past lives.

It's like fixating on highway gas mileage while ignoring city mileage altogether. If you want to figure out how much gas you will need to get to your destination then you need to include both. There is a potential for a great deal of time to be spent outside of actively earning XP in DDO, therefore a realistic estimate of XP/min would take that into consideration. Sure, in best case scenarios of groups of people zerging nonstop from one quest to the next never taking a break it is probably reasonable that you could average 2K XP/min. It's possible. Yet, it's not very realistic. Certainly not for someone asking the question.

I told them 1k/min was reasonable GOAL for a newer player.

I also told them what was possible.

You can make up a thousand reasons why 2k/min is not realistic, but it is for players who know what they are doing.

2k/min doesn't require perfect play. Several people have told you this, and given examples of better than 2k/min.

Those of us who know what we are doing spend very little time out of quests. We can chat with friends guildies while questing.

I did the math for you, which you are free to dispute and I can update the numbers for you.

And heart farming is more than a footnote itself. You need 20 tokens of the 12, and the whole time you are earning 0 XP/min toward that past life. Anyone with even a rudimentary understanding of mathematics can see that when you start averaging in 0's the rate plummets. 30 hours from Korthos to Reincarnation Grove might be reasonably possible, but I don't think it's very realistic at all. I think the average player would need to double that to 60, and that's with being very focused and staying on task. Realistically, if you log in a couple hours a night, chat with a few guildies, skim through the LFMs (that's quick these days, there's usually isn't more than one, and that's if you're lucky), scan through the compendium to decide what to run next, throw up an LFM, and jump in a quest, I think the average player can very easily be looking at 100 hours, give or take, especially when including the heart farm.

The real answer is, it's hella subjective. It's not only going to differ greatly from player to player, it's going to differ greatly from life to life. On top of that, some lives are going to feel like twice as long as they actually are.

I have never heart farmed in 6 years of DDO and I am a 3x completionist.

100 hours is a meaningless number because neither you nor I know what the average player does. We only have our own experiences and what we hear others say (something you won't accept). 30 hours would be representative of someone who knows what they are doing and has a good build, but not requiring perfect play. This could be relaxed play for someone who is experienced. If you fall below that, then you may be a good player and simply don't worry about XP/min or a perfectly good player that doesn't know how to level efficiently.

I'm sure my first life took me more than 100 hours, but that was a much different era and I have also learned much since then.

What is possible? 2-3k/min

What should any one person run? Whatever pace is fun for them.

[Thrudh]

Actually what burned me out was having 15+ toons...many of which were at level 20 before TR became so accesible......and trying to maintain them.

I have since deleted all of my characters except the one I am doing completionist with.....I no long have alts for extra storage nor do I care about saving every shiny thing I come across....I log in and I am ready to go.

Ah, I agree with you that keeping up a large stable of characters is indeed more difficult now... I went for the solution of cutting back to 3 main characters, and 2 more secondary characters.

I like alts because different builds play very differently, so it's a nice change of pace to switch between characters.

One character doing multiple TRs is also a good way to do this, because you'll be playing the same content with different classes each time....

UNLESS you focus on xp/min and getting through each life as fast as possible, because you're likely to start building the fastest xp/min builds each time, which are very similar. I hope you at least enjoy all the different classes on your way to completionist. It could be a fun journey or joyless grind. Definitely sounds like a good long-term goal to aim for.

[nokowi]

When solo it is very important to know whether to go for all the kills, traps, breakables, etc. But as a group, there are probably only a couple of quests where you would zerg and not go for the bonuses - especially if people are able to split up and do their thing.

You would be surprised how many groups don't do this well. New players are going to mess this up badly. I often see pugs take 2x as long as they could for something like 10% more XP. Part of it is that it is simply not relaxing or fun for many players to run at maximum pace.

If your groups are doing everything in every quest you are definitely losing XP/min.

There are many quests that are not even possible to get max ratings.

Go run Tangleroot Chain and tell me what your breakable bonus is. (May as well skip breakables in this chain)

Go run Feast or Famine and tell me what your aggression bonus is. (No good reason to clear rooms once you get the key)

[Gremmlynn]

You would be surprised how many groups don't do this well. New players are going to mess this up badly. I often see pugs take 2x as long as they could for something like 10% more XP. Part of it is that it is simply not relaxing or fun for many players to run at maximum pace.

If your groups are doing everything in every quest you are definitely losing XP/min.

There are many quests that are not even possible to get max ratings.

Go run Tangleroot Chain and tell me what your breakable bonus is. (May as well skip breakables in this chain)

Go run Feast or Famine and tell me what your aggression bonus is. (No good reason to clear rooms once you get the key)

Loot? Killing orcs is fun? There's two good reasons right there.

Personally, I can't think of a good reason to be in a hurry to get to 20 just to turn around and do it again. I just can't see any pot of gold at the end that makes me want to hurry past the rainbow.

[Theolin]

Well I can give my experience:


Best time was between 20-22 hours one weekend started friday night and finished sun afternoon, this was a weekend with a bonus xp & was in a group that was xp zergin with 4 folks who knew exactly what to do & how to do it. (from the xp pot it took just under 17 hours of quest time as there was just over an hour of time left on the last pot)


Average time for me is about 3ish weeks I take a nice leisurely pace of 2-4 hours a day most days so that's about 25-30 hours of actual play time, plus just some sitting around time of 5 or so hours of just not doing anything really


Long end time is about 3 months if I don't like a build or don't play much or just don't care, or am busy playing raids for something different, so have no idea on how many hours that ends up being but probably 30-50 hours or so.


Now since I like a faster pace of leveling I do have all the xp things going
I use 50% pot, 10% vip, frist time, elite streak, xp book, ... etc & get the reasonable quest bonuses (meaning I balance is it faster to run it again for more xp on hard or get the bonus - this does change with party make up & build)

As an example, I usually run ring leader on elite & get all the bonuses on an arcane caster or cleavin melee but not anything else as it takes too long, but then I re-run on hard 2x and then norm but each of those takes is <3 minutes or ~1.5 min if there are 2 people & I never run that crazy one of kill 200 kobalds as it takes about 15 minutes for crappy xp.

[nokowi]

Loot? Killing orcs is fun? There's two good reasons right there.

Personally, I can't think of a good reason to be in a hurry to get to 20 just to turn around and do it again. I just can't see any pot of gold at the end that makes me want to hurry past the rainbow.

This is an XP/min thread in which someone said groups should go for all optionals.

Please read my post in that context.

If you read several of my other posts, I say to play the game the way you enjoy.

That does not answer the questions regarding the XP/min that people can achieve, however.

[Chai]

Loot? Killing orcs is fun? There's two good reasons right there.

Personally, I can't think of a good reason to be in a hurry to get to 20 just to turn around and do it again. I just can't see any pot of gold at the end that makes me want to hurry past the rainbow.

What was the purpose of advocating keeping elite easy for 3+ years, all the while claiming "penalizing" people by disallowing max XP until they were ready for elite was unfair?

If "I do it because its fun, not for the XP" was the goal all along then there should have been no concern at all about people having to get ready for elite, rather than running full speed blindfolded and flailing two weapons expecting victory each time.

[Gremmlynn]

What was the purpose of advocating keeping elite easy for 3+ years, all the while claiming "penalizing" people by disallowing max XP until they were ready for elite was unfair?

If "I do it because its fun, not for the XP" was the goal all along then there should have been no concern at all about people having to get ready for elite, rather than running full speed blindfolded and flailing two weapons expecting victory each time.

I think you misread analysis for advocacy.

I have always said I play the game for fun and the xp takes care of itself, that's my attitude towards gaming, especially this game with no real reason to worry where one is on the treadmill as there is no "next thing" to get to once the leveling process is done. Hell, I don't even have a character that can open elite first run. The thing is, as far as I can tell I'm something of an anomaly in this regard. So Turbine isn't going to keep people around following my way.

Frankly I don't think any "advocacy" from me is going to make a difference one way or the other on this matter. I'm just looking at what's being done and giving the only logical reason I can find as to why Turbine would do it. People leaving the game due to the perception of being shafted on xp causes Turbine to remove that perception by making that xp accessible to all. Whether you, me or anyone outside Turbine feels that's a good move or a bad move or a just plain wrong move is neither here nor there as they are going to do what they think best supports their bottom line regardless as not doing so is good way of finding oneself unemployed.