Returning Player END GAME DC Question

[Gralhota]

90 DC for Will, Reflex and Fort are enough ?

Sorry for **** english

[Enoach]

Depending on content the range of DCs can be from 75 up [This is not 100% success]. Lower than that with debuffs such as Crushing Despair or Hypnotism. I have a wizard with 82 Enchantment that works well in Slave Lord Series and a Warlock with 65 Enchantment that uses Crushing Despair and gets decent holds, again not 100% but most of them.

Now, the other consideration is spell penetration. It is not always a factor ie Legendary Shroud has High SR while Slave Lord series have virtually no SR.

[Gralhota]

Depending on content the range of DCs can be from 75 up [This is not 100% success]. Lower than that with debuffs such as Crushing Despair or Hypnotism. I have a wizard with 82 Enchantment that works well in Slave Lord Series and a Warlock with 65 Enchantment that uses Crushing Despair and gets decent holds, again not 100% but most of them.

Now, the other consideration is spell penetration. It is not always a factor ie Legendary Shroud has High SR while Slave Lord series have virtually no SR.

I would like to know about the quests/Raids more difficult.

90% success rate with debuff is good for me.

Thx for help.

[slarden]

I would like to know about the quests/Raids more difficult.

90% success rate with debuff is good for me.

Thx for help.

LE Tempest Spine sweet spot: 65 spell pen, 85 will save, 90 reflex, 90 fort save except giants, rust monsters drow scorpion you need more like 100.

LE Hound: 90 fort kills everything - not sure about enchant and reflex.

LE Shroud 60 spell pen 85 will save gets everything. 95 reflex except archers. 90 fort works against casters and archers. You need about 110 for no-fail.

LE Slavers. 80 will works for most things some are over 90. 95 reflex works solid. 90 fort gets most things. Kobolds 100 against necro 110 or so against illusion. Orcs require about 100. Ogres maybe 110.

[Boneshank]

LE Tempest Spine sweet spot: 65 spell pen, 85 will save, 90 reflex, 90 fort save except giants, rust monsters drow scorpion you need more like 100.

LE Hound: 90 fort kills everything - not sure about enchant and reflex.

LE Shroud 60 spell pen 85 will save gets everything. 95 reflex except archers. 90 fort works against casters and archers. You need about 110 for no-fail.

LE Slavers. 80 will works for most things some are over 90. 95 reflex works solid. 90 fort gets most things. Kobolds 100 against necro 110 or so against illusion. Orcs require about 100. Ogres maybe 110.

Most of these are exaggerated, IMO.
Some by 10+ at least, especially with the OP's qualifier of "90% success with debuff"...

[slarden]

Most of these are exaggerated, IMO.
Some by 10+ at least, especially with the OP's qualifier of "90% success with debuff"...

Numbers are spot on. I run a wizard illusionist and warlock necromnacer. exact builds and dcs are listed in builds below and I have significant experience running all the content.

I give numbers before debuffs. Debuffs you factor in after knowing the #s. The specific examples I provided was to help the OP know what enemies would need debuffing.

And also knowing you may not care about high reflex save enemies in raids because they can be instakilled.

[Boneshank]

Numbers are spot on.

I understand you believe that, and won't try to change your opinion.
I just happen to not agree with those numbers.

Carry on.

[slarden]

I understand you believe that, and won't try to change your opinion.
I just happen to not agree with those numbers.

Carry on.

It's not a matter of belief or opinion, I ran the content with 2 different builds MANY MANY times and obviously the wizard illusion dc is much higher compared to my warlock's necro dc. So it was really easy to benchmark DC ranges and which enemies required over 100 dc and sometimes higher. My warlock is at 94 necro DC and my wizard is at 103 illusion. Also of note the kobolds in slavers have save bonuses against illusions. A few enemies can be immune to illusion death effects (presumably fear immunity). I listed some specific enemies if you disagree feel free to list which ones. 103 is not no-fail in LE shroud, LE tempest spine or LE slavers. I listed which enemies require above low 90s. The lowest DC requirements in my experience are LE Hound.

And for orcs, I was referring specifically to orc melees.

[blerkington]

Slarden, from doing LE Tempest Spine and Slavers on my wizard, I'd agree with Boneshank's observation. By the way, he runs one of the stronger DC wizards on our server.

In particular, the fort saves are generally softer than you indicate. If they were what you were saying, my wizard would be far less effective than he actually is. He is not a maxed out DC caster but I've recently run him in both TS and Slavers and he has little difficulty instakilling most enemies.

That experience is supported by the continuous stream of complaints on the forums about what a PITA it is to run Slavers on a melee in a caster group. A couple of half decent instakillers will tear that place up and leave nothing for the melees to do except grab their loot and kill the bosses.

So unless we've been having an extraordinary good run of luck with enemies failing their saving throws, or you've been having an extraordinarily bad run of luck with them rolling well, those numbers are a bit off.

Thanks.

[slarden]

Slarden, from doing LE Tempest Spine and Slavers on my wizard, I'd agree with Boneshank's observation. By the way, he runs one of the stronger DC wizards on our server.

In particular, the fort saves are generally softer than you indicate. If they were what you were saying, my wizard would be far less effective than he actually is. He is not a maxed out DC caster but I've recently run him in both TS and Slavers and he has little difficulty instakilling most enemies.

That experience is supported by the continuous stream of complaints on the forums about what a PITA it is to run Slavers on a melee in a caster group. A couple of half decent instakillers will tear that place up and leave nothing for the melees to do except grab their loot and kill the bosses.

So unless we've been having an extraordinary good run of luck with enemies failing their saving throws, or you've been having an extraordinarily bad run of luck with them rolling well, those numbers are a bit off.

Thanks.

i only listed a few thing that are above 90 in all the content. I never ran with a D.C. Lower than 90 so I make no attempts to define the bottom end. Only those things above 90.

My illusionist with 103 isn't no fail against the things I mentioned. It's possible they have some save boosts against illusion. I am comfortable with the numbers after several runs on my illusionist wizard and warlock necromancer. Again I am not counting debuffing and talking about no fail. You can still get the hill giants in tsk with 90 but not no fail.

[Gralhota]

i only listed a few thing that are above 90 in all the content. I never ran with a D.C. Lower than 90 so I make no attempts to define the bottom end. Only those things above 90.

My illusionist with 103 isn't no fail against the things I mentioned. It's possible they have some save boosts against illusion. I am comfortable with the numbers after several runs on my illusionist wizard and warlock necromancer. Again I am not counting debuffing and talking about no fail. You can still get the hill giants in tsk with 90 but not no fail.

Thank you Slarden you help me a lot.

My observations

90DC is good but no fail.

80 - 85 DC is good if you targeting lower save. Ex : Mobs Casters fort save.

[slarden]

Thank you Slarden you help me a lot.

My observations

90DC is good but no fail.

80 - 85 DC is good if you targeting lower save. Ex : Mobs Casters fort save.

Yes 90 is the sweet spot where you quickly get diminishing returns. Lower fort save enemies are below that but I don't know details below 90.

[blerkington]

... I make no attempts to define the bottom end. Only those things above 90.

When you reply to a thread which is about what is required to perform effectively in the endgame by providing a set of numbers yourself, that is exactly what you are doing.

Thanks.

[Mr_Helmet]

Yes 90 is the sweet spot where you quickly get diminishing returns. Lower fort save enemies are below that but I don't know details below 90.

Haven't read the whole thread so excuse me if I'm missing something obvious, but with a the right gear you should be breaking 100 necro DC. I'm currently getting 97 while in Shiradi.

[slarden]

When you reply to a thread which is about what is required to perform effectively in the endgame by providing a set of numbers yourself, that is exactly what you are doing.

Thanks.

I gave a baseline suggestion of 90 Dc being good And provided exceptions. 90 is easy to hit if you can hit the more difficult spell pen numbers so I didn't feel bad about using that as a starting point. Gralhota's point is also valid that low fort enemies have a lower requrement. My intention was fully to help the op by explaining what needed debuffing with a 90 Dc

also please look at original post. Op wanted to know if 90 was enough. I responded it was the sweet spot and listed the specific things where 90 isn't no fail. I fail to see the problem.

[slarden]

Haven't read the whole thread so excuse me if I'm missing something obvious, but with a the right gear you should be breaking 100 necro DC. I'm currently getting 97 while in Shiradi.

i haven't computed the max on a wizard recently because my Dc wizard is illusion focused, but my warlock tops out at 95 unless I am gimp him in other ways.