Mass hold in reaper

[draven1]

Mass hold monster in reaper difficulty makes it too easy now.

It's like death sentence for mobs, but, you can just spam it especially if you are sorc(3.5sec, 6 sec for wiz).

How about raising its cool-down to 30~60 sec or more on reaper difficulty? And raise cool-down for more mass CC type spells(otto's dancing ball, earthquake, sunburst, etc).

You can still use other various CC spells for single target, multi targets, targeting against will save, fort save, reflex save.
Single or multi-target slow, fear, web, hypnotism, daze, confusion, suggestion, charm, fatigue, illusion, stone, blind, earthquake, fogs, sprays, etc.

Don't forget to give mobs very high specific saves. DDO gave us very high universal spell DC on U32. So, you can just spam mass hold on every mobs without thinking mob's weak save. I think it's not good design for spell.

ex> very high fort on brute types, so, it will resist against your finger or 'flesh to stone', but, it would be good target for hold, fear, daze, suggestion.
very high reflex on archer, rogue types, so, it will resist against your web easily, but, good target for will & fort save spells.
vert high will save on divine & arcane types, it will resist against your will save spells, but, good target for fort & reflex save spells.


It would give players more challenges & need for tactical decisions. And it would make casters to use more various spells, not just single trick pony.

[Enoach]

I think a better idea is to mix the group with different mobs with different "High" saves so that one spell isn't the go-to spell.

providing a mix is much better then changing the cooldown or even increasing the saves or giving mobs random immunity to a spell type.

[kemetka]

Personally I would have hoped for more difficult quest design as a mixture of environment + monsters + obstacles as opposed to something where things are just harder hitting and harder to kill, but we have what we have.

that being said, asking the devs to target the cool down of a specific spell in a specific difficulty will never happen, thats too much work for so little outcome
if somone is building a CC / DC based caster that is what they are going to do, asking them to increase the cool down on hold monster while not increasing the cool down on other similarly effective spells and effects is a major oversight issue, especially when there are fear effects that are far more easy to land and just as effective.

You can still use other various CC spells for single target, multi targets, targeting against will save, fort save, reflex save. Single or multi-target slow, fear, web, hypnotism, daze, confusion, suggestion, charm, fatigue, illusion, stone, blind, earthquake, fogs, sprays, etc.

well thank goodness

also dont let a virtuoso's enthrall go without recognition, DC 130-ish "stand still and die" song, which does not break invisibility, and does not break stealth ( at least not since i last played a rogue/bard )

It would give players more challenges & need for tactical decisions. And it would make casters to use more various spells, not just single trick pony.

no it really wont, the issue is that players -- long standing players -- understand how the mob system works, and how the NPC AI works, and while it can become difficult at times if you happen to agro to much or pull the wrong thing, it is not insurmountable. actual challenge would have come from a less linear and more intuitive quest layout, utilizing a variety of traps -- that are already in game mind you... --- that deal 0 damage, and are still detrimental. And for that matter, the only failure mechanism in this game is death, when anyone who has ever played pen and paper will know that is simply not the case, I personally was hoping for a quest with trap that would teleport you to a box with no way out if you triggered it, and "teleport lock enforced" errors if you try to ddoor or teleport out, something that would be actually challenging that would require a number of different classes - at least 3 - to complete. But we get what we get, and that is reaper mode.

[nokowi]

Reaper will be boring and stale, with a short life if players are give easy no-brain solutions, such as 1 spell that performs dramatically better than all other forms of cc.

Players will find the best mix of builds, and "good" players will only choose these builds.

It doesn't matter how hard it is to fix, reaper is going to be far less engaging in the long term if players are given such easy button solutions.

"Challenge us in an intelligent manner" means not having such abilities in the first place. Although content is largely static, having a diverse pool of groups provides much of the variety in game play. Everyone needs to be able to contribute in a UNIQUE manner for this to happen. We need to remove the design philosophy of everyone does the same thing equally to get interesting and cooperative game play.

[silinteresting]

Mass hold monster in reaper difficulty makes it too easy now.

It's like death sentence for mobs, but, you can just spam it especially if you are sorc(3.5sec, 6 sec for wiz).

How about raising its cool-down to 30~60 sec or more on reaper difficulty? And raise cool-down for more mass CC type spells(otto's dancing ball, earthquake, sunburst, etc).

You can still use other various CC spells for single target, multi targets, targeting against will save, fort save, reflex save.
Single or multi-target slow, fear, web, hypnotism, daze, confusion, suggestion, charm, fatigue, illusion, stone, blind, earthquake, fogs, sprays, etc.

Don't forget to give mobs very high specific saves. DDO gave us very high universal spell DC on U32. So, you can just spam mass hold on every mobs without thinking mob's weak save. I think it's not good design for spell.

ex> very high fort on brute types, so, it will resist against your finger or 'flesh to stone', but, it would be good target for hold, fear, daze, suggestion.
very high reflex on archer, rogue types, so, it will resist against your web easily, but, good target for will & fort save spells.
vert high will save on divine & arcane types, it will resist against your will save spells, but, good target for fort & reflex save spells.


It would give players more challenges & need for tactical decisions. And it would make casters to use more various spells, not just single trick pony.

the devs will have to becareful here, lets take a druid caster if you take away earthquake then the said druid will never be invited
into a reaper quest as at the moment(pre pass). caster bards then if they lose there holds they wont get invited. if there are no holds
in the design of reaper then it will be melee's and meatsacks and healers, not something i want to see at all.

your friend sil

[Vanhooger]

Mass hold monster in reaper difficulty makes it too easy now.

It's like death sentence for mobs, but, you can just spam it especially if you are sorc(3.5sec, 6 sec for wiz).

How about raising its cool-down to 30~60 sec or more on reaper difficulty? And raise cool-down for more mass CC type spells(otto's dancing ball, earthquake, sunburst, etc).

You can still use other various CC spells for single target, multi targets, targeting against will save, fort save, reflex save.
Single or multi-target slow, fear, web, hypnotism, daze, confusion, suggestion, charm, fatigue, illusion, stone, blind, earthquake, fogs, sprays, etc.

Don't forget to give mobs very high specific saves. DDO gave us very high universal spell DC on U32. So, you can just spam mass hold on every mobs without thinking mob's weak save. I think it's not good design for spell.

ex> very high fort on brute types, so, it will resist against your finger or 'flesh to stone', but, it would be good target for hold, fear, daze, suggestion.
very high reflex on archer, rogue types, so, it will resist against your web easily, but, good target for will & fort save spells.
vert high will save on divine & arcane types, it will resist against your will save spells, but, good target for fort & reflex save spells.


It would give players more challenges & need for tactical decisions. And it would make casters to use more various spells, not just single trick pony.

this. Hope devs did read this one.

[slarden]

I think inflating a mob's high save by 30 for reaper would be a better option. This would effectively mean enemies with the high save being will can't be cc'd at all with enchantment, but earthquake, trip or web might work.

[Vanhooger]

I think inflating a mob's high save by 30 for reaper would be a better option. This would effectively mean enemies with the high save being will can't be cc'd at all with enchantment, but earthquake, trip or web might work.

This works too and probably easier to implement, I guess.

[Wh070aa]

DC creep would destroy casters. Do you understand the investment necessary to land any spells on these difficulties?
Having a wizard/sorc in party should offer some advantages.

Otherwise you make Sorc/Wizard useless, and replaced by bard/rogue. No even talking about what it would do to Divine CC dc's.

Inflate Caster mob saves by that, and make them cast FoM or whatever you cast to dispel holds.

[sirgog]

Giving mobs +20 to saves when they have 95% or more HP might be worth experimenting with.

Some mobs should spawn with dispellable FOM too.

[Vanhooger]

DC creep would destroy casters. Do you understand the investment necessary to land any spells on these difficulties?
Having a wizard/sorc in party should offer some advantages.

Otherwise you make Sorc/Wizard useless, and replaced by bard/rogue. No even talking about what it would do to Divine CC dc's.

Inflate Caster mob saves by that, and make them cast FoM or whatever you cast to dispel holds.

I do play mainly DC caster.
Did you even read the post? We are talking about maximize the best save a mob have, you still have another 2 to play with as a dc caster, that is far from useless.

[Vanhooger]

Some mobs should spawn with dispellable FOM too.

If only debuff worked.

[JOTMON]

Giving mobs +20 to saves when they have 95% or more HP might be worth experimenting with.

Some mobs should spawn with dispellable FOM too.

Would like to see mobs randomized with saves..
let them get a +20/-20 to their saves... somewhere they have a weakness is it fort is it reflex is it will....
Cast mass hold on 20 mobs.. 7 of them will likely almost guaranteed save since they were buffed vs that attack..

wouldn't even mind seeing some mobs have 95% immunity to certain attacks..
Near immune to ranged/susceptible to melee/magic .. with a randomized mix/match... have bosses cycle the immunity defense..
Would be great to see a temp HP buff from certain attacks.. immunity to ranged shield.. fury shot just temp HP healed the mob for the damage you would have done for x duration...

Mobs with healing/immunity to certain attacks.. hearing impaired mobs(cant hear bard songs so not affected by them but they see your banjo and they hate you for it...),
Mobs healed by evil damage, healed by force damage, healed by fire, healed by... etc....
The kind of stuff that forces players to adapt their attacks and strategize their opponents... instead of min/max one trick ponies...

[Eth]

Would like to see mobs randomized with saves..
let them get a +20/-20 to their saves... somewhere they have a weakness is it fort is it reflex is it will....
Cast mass hold on 20 mobs.. 7 of them will likely almost guaranteed save since they were buffed vs that attack..

No thanks, I prefer knowledge to be somewhat valuable.

[JOTMON]

No thanks, I prefer knowledge to be somewhat valuable.

fair point.

[Wh070aa]

I do play mainly DC caster.
Did you even read the post? We are talking about maximize the best save a mob have, you still have another 2 to play with as a dc caster, that is far from useless.

Yea, you play web shooter, I get it.

[Vanhooger]

Yea, you play web shooter, I get it.

Man, if you don't want challenge don't play reaper, easy as that.

[slarden]

DC creep would destroy casters. Do you understand the investment necessary to land any spells on these difficulties?
Having a wizard/sorc in party should offer some advantages.

Otherwise you make Sorc/Wizard useless, and replaced by bard/rogue. No even talking about what it would do to Divine CC dc's.

Inflate Caster mob saves by that, and make them cast FoM or whatever you cast to dispel holds.

I was talking about just inflating the High save which is 1 of 3 saves. So yes enemies would effectively auto-save against spells targeting their high saves. As ETH said this is where experience and knowledge is important. If you see a cleric and try to hold him you are wasting your sp. It means hitting archers with spells that aren't evadable and not trying to instakill high fort-mobs.

[Tlorrd]

No thanks, I prefer knowledge to be somewhat valuable.

agreed ... also monster manual is a great place with much knowledge as one gains kills. It has helped me a lot in planning certain quests.

[nokowi]

No thanks, I prefer knowledge to be somewhat valuable.

If they add a variable amount to DC that increases with more skull setting, mobs with a specific high save will still have that as their high save.

It would give a player increasing power as they increase DC, make the ability useful across a larger range of DC's, while making it more difficult to get no-fail DC's.

Build choices, player abilities, and game knowledge are useful.

The main drawback is that dev's didn't bother making DC's scale similarly during the class passes. No doubt this will create extra work for them if they plan to make reaper a fun place to play, as players will quickly learn to use the better scaling DC's.

Reaper must prevent players from designing around all challenge, while providing many build and play choices to overcome challenge.