Warlock NERF Again

[slarden]

Go back to last pages, this has been addressed already.

Yes I've seen where you keep repeating the same false statements over and over again. It's still wrong.

[Angelic-council]

It took a while to read all this, and all I am hearing is nerf warlock because the class makes "me" feel bad...really? I have said it so many times, what makes warlocks a contentious issue is their AoE enhancements. I have advocated putting the warlock damage on melee weapons as a "on hit" proc instead of an aura. Turn the burst/blast into actual cleaves with the same damage output. Now you a real melee based arcane archetype.

Notice no one is upset about TS or SE. Why? Because while offering more power, they do not give "automatic/auto damaging" AoE attacks. So let's address this and stop yelling nerf it all to hell.

Now don't forget, one of the Devs said that warlocks were not the highest DPS...I think it was Steel, but I could be wrong on that.

In the past, I used to post how Barbarians, Bards, Paladins were OP. Now I recant those statements and see them as uniquely qualified to work well in certain situations, just like the warlock. Warlocks are good at crowd control but not boss fights. In this, we run against player ego mania that just can't get over kill count, as if this was a thing. Why any adult would care about it, is a mystery.

Just the side note, but I never seen anyone could compete with warlock trash killing speed yet. ES is not the highest DPS, and most people try to save SP. TS/ES warlock can actually drop 400k HP bosses fairly fast in exchange SP drain. Eldritchball (10k+ AoE), eldritch burst (4k AoE), hellball, divine wrath, energy burst, arcane pulse, ruin, greater ruin which are all scaled by 85% critical damage. It'a possible to maintain over 600 light and 500+ elemental damage and 50% critical chance which allows warlocks to crit often. For boss fights, warlocks could use 25% critical dmg robe and wellspring, add reborn in light and your light dmg would go up to 1000 before meta, 130% crit dmg for 30 sec, then 115 for 60 sec.

I would love to see someone play highest warlock dmg build, because it's possible to deal 100k dmg first rotation. Now, their defense don't suck if ppl afraid, they can be very much survival.

[slarden]

Just the side note, but I never seen anyone could compete with warlock trash killing speed yet. ES is not the highest DPS, and most people try to save SP. TS/ES warlock can actually drop 400k HP bosses fairly fast in exchange SP drain. Eldritchball (10k+ AoE), eldritch burst (4k AoE), hellball, divine wrath, energy burst, arcane pulse, ruin, greater ruin which are all scaled by 85% critical damage. It'a possible to maintain over 600 light and 500+ elemental damage and 50% critical chance which allows warlocks to crit often. For boss fights, warlocks could use 25% critical dmg robe and wellspring, add reborn in light and your light dmg would go up to 1000 before meta, 130% crit dmg for 30 sec, then 115 for 60 sec.

I would love to see someone play highest warlock dmg build, because it's possible to deal 100k dmg first rotation. Now, their defense don't suck if ppl afraid, they can be very much survival.

Agreed, but mostly these things are available to other builds except crit damage which is only available to TS capstone builds (very rare in my experience) and builds with a /5+ wizard splash going tier 5 in archmage. 30% crit damage is more common among warlocks. Base damage is 100%, crit base damage is 100%, 25% from scion of fire, 36% material opposition bonus and then 30-60% for wizards and warlocks.

Ruin, greater ruin, arcane pulse is certainly available to all builds.

From my testing ES/TS beats SE/TS for bursting mobs due mostly to non-math reasons - targeting, positioning, synergies - but SE/TS is much better boss damage with consume and stricken to add to the arsenal and the 60% crit damage vs 30%. I also use wave on bosses which is triple blast scaled at 150% on my SE/TS but my SE/TS is instakill build spec'd also for DPS giving up a few dc. Both builds are really good and obviously wave is more damage than both blasts combined, but targeting is an issue. Eldritch Ball is the same damage as eldritch burst but without the extra light damage. Base damage of Eldritch burst is just over 100 before spellpower and crit multiplier so 4k is about right on a crit without vulnerability and helplessness as 40k (1000 base damage vs 100) is about right for greater ruin before other factors are considered (vulnerability, arcane supremacy, etc.).

I am not seeing how you are jumping from 4k to 10k with ball vs. blast when the ball is scaled to 150% spellpower vs eldritch burst 100% but eld burst has extra light damage.

[Ellihor]

Yes I've seen where you keep repeating the same false statements over and over again. It's still wrong.

I see, instead if dealing with the arguments you just deny. Then you acuse me of doing what you are doing. Classic: do it yourself and acuse others of doing it. Yes, it's not me the one repeating things that have been already debunked previously, you are. You just ignore the argument addressing your statement, and then repeat the same thing over and over again, trying to pass as if the statement was flawless. I see why that's being done: you have zero interest in moving this discussion forward. You're trying to stagnate it, that's why after so many pages the thread is still stuck.


It makes no sense that, despite agreeing warlock should be nerfed, every time there is productive discussion about that, it's ignored or attacked. How can this be? I mean, how are we even discussing? It's not surprising people just eject from the thread. It's really really tiring trying to reason with such hypocrisy.

[slarden]

I see, instead if dealing with the arguments you just deny. Then you acuse me of doing what you are doing. Classic: do it yourself and acuse others of doing it. Yes, it's not me the one repeating things that have been already debunked previously, you are. You just ignore the argument addressing your statement, and then repeat the same thing over and over again, trying to pass as if the statement was flawless. I see why that's being done: you have zero interest in moving this discussion forward. You're trying to stagnate it, that's why after so many pages the thread is still stuck.

It makes no sense that, despite agreeing warlock should be nerfed, every time there is productive discussion about that, it's ignored or attacked. How can this be? I mean, how are we even discussing? It's not surprising people just eject from the thread. It's really really tiring trying to reason with such hypocrisy.

Fact: You asked the devs on lamannia to NOT raise saves of enemies which impacts primarily just DC casters
Fact: You want massive nerfs to warlocks but consider wizards just fine.
Fact: I said numerous times in this thread alone that I am ok with warlock nerfs if it is done as part of a balance pass adjusting numerous powerful builds, but I am against nerfing only warlock while ignoring other OP builds. It just makes one set of people change their gear or take a break from the game. Better to get all the adjustments done in one shot if devs think downward adjustments are needed.

[Avocado]

Fact: You asked the devs on lamannia to NOT raise saves of enemies which impacts primarily just DC casters
Fact: You want massive nerfs to warlocks but consider wizards just fine.
Fact: I said numerous times in this thread alone that I am ok with warlock nerfs if it is done as part of a balance pass adjusting numerous powerful builds, but I am against nerfing only warlock while ignoring other OP builds. It just makes one set of people change their gear or take a break from the game. Better to get all the adjustments done in one shot if devs think downward adjustments are needed.

What other things do you wish to see changed? I dont like the term balance because its synonymous with infinity. It cant be reached its just a concept.

Exploit build fix dod on wolves and cleaves on trees (will miss my tree but whatever) others?
Shuricannons - not sure why they are op all the sudden. I havent played one since thunder forged came out.
Barbarians - hp and con reduction. general enhancements scale less with melee power. 110 con not OP?
Kensei - less melee/ranged power boost. +60 with 18 ftr

[Ellihor]

Fact: You asked the devs on lamannia to NOT raise saves of enemies which impacts primarily just DC casters
Fact: You want massive nerfs to warlocks but consider wizards just fine.

Here you are yet again trying to get the thread stuck, talking about irrelevant things in order to derail it. Why is any of that relevant? Why you keep binging this up? And no, I did not say wizards are fine, I can get quotes from myself, done after I asked the DCs to not raise, where I say wizards could have power reduction. So that is not a factual reality as you claim it to be, it's just a lie.

Fact: I said numerous times in this thread alone that I am ok with warlock nerfs if it is done as part of a balance pass adjusting numerous powerful builds, but I am against nerfing only warlock while ignoring other OP builds. It just makes one set of people change their gear or take a break from the game. Better to get all the adjustments done in one shot if devs think downward adjustments are needed.

Despite saying that, every time we try to proceed on how can that be done, you derail the topic. If you don't think your own words deserve respect, why should others? This hypocrisy is not going to stick. If you want to make what you claim to be your position true, then stop with this attitude and let's proceed to look at how can we implement the changes.

[slarden]

Here you are yet again trying to get the thread stuck, talking about irrelevant things in order to derail it. Why is any of that relevant? Why you keep binging this up? And no, I did not say wizards are fine, I can get quotes from myself, done after I asked the DCs to not raise, where I say wizards could have power reduction. So that is not a factual reality as you claim it to be, it's just a lie.

Despite saying that, every time we try to proceed on how can that be done, you derail the topic. If you don't think your own words deserve respect, why should others? This hypocrisy is not going to stick. If you want to make what you claim to be your position true, then stop with this attitude and let's proceed to look at how can we implement the changes.

I am glad you changed your position.

As I said, first priority is to fix things not working as intended. That is a no-brainer as only people in the know get power from those things. Balance adjustments can follow.

[nokowi]

Despite saying that, every time we try to proceed on how can that be done, you derail the topic. If you don't think your own words deserve respect, why should others? This hypocrisy is not going to stick. If you want to make what you claim to be your position true, then stop with this attitude and let's proceed to look at how can we implement the changes.

Try making salient points as to what you believe is OP, and what you propose as a change.

You might find others actually responding positively to that type of post.

[Vanhooger]

It took a while to read all this, and all I am hearing is nerf warlock because the class makes "me" feel bad...really? I have said it so many times, what makes warlocks a contentious issue is their AoE enhancements. I have advocated putting the warlock damage on melee weapons as a "on hit" proc instead of an aura. Turn the burst/blast into actual cleaves with the same damage output. Now you a real melee based arcane archetype.

Notice no one is upset about TS or SE. Why? Because while offering more power, they do not give "automatic/auto damaging" AoE attacks. So let's address this and stop yelling nerf it all to hell.

Now don't forget, one of the Devs said that warlocks were not the highest DPS...I think it was Steel, but I could be wrong on that.

In the past, I used to post how Barbarians, Bards, Paladins were OP. Now I recant those statements and see them as uniquely qualified to work well in certain situations, just like the warlock. Warlocks are good at crowd control but not boss fights. In this, we run against player ego mania that just can't get over kill count, as if this was a thing. Why any adult would care about it, is a mystery.

TS and SE are very strong, I keep saying that since my very first post in here, and asked for a nerf to crit multi instead of shining thing.

Dev's said warlock aren't the highest dps?

It won't be the top 1, but for sure is one of the highest, but again people will deny, cos dev said that.

And Warlock not good at boss fight is just...I don't know...LOL

I like some guy coming in this thread earlier, claiming Warlock isn't good as other classes and then what he does? Playing a warlock to speedrun raid.

Hilarious.

Maybe, I'm wrong, they're not warlock, they just got the icon and 12 lvl of it. That doesn't make them warlock.

And again do not ask question about some balance aspect of they're build they won't answer, but we all know why.

Haven't seen anyone talking about kill count, and if someone did it's not everyone.

[Chai]

What builds are you talking about? The only build I have experienced a similar amount of power as warlock has been shiradi spammer. I have not played ranger, tree and fighter since the pass, btw, but from the information I have seen they are the ones that come close after it, together with monkcher. I'm all for looking into them too.

There was a thread asking to nerf it some time ago, I was there approving, unlike the people who claim to be in favor of nerfing the broken builds but when the talk gets real all what they do is try to stop it.

They are all listed in this thread. Most have been around since 2012. I feel its somewhat ironic that people turn a blind eye to it claiming to not notice, but when warlock happens the knee jerk reactionary nerf demands go off the charts. This is likely due to confusing popularity with power. Also: confusing ease of entry into LE and ease of play with power. A tree build is more powerful, but takes some meticulous planning and tweaking. A wizard can be more powerful but takes more PL refinement.

Also where are all the people who in other discussions told the rest of us over and over again to stop worrying about what other players are doing? I can answer that question. Many are here. They just did a complete 180 on their position of not being worried about what others are doing. Now they claim what others are doing "ruins their fun" so it should be nerfed.

[Ellihor]

Try making salient points as to what you believe is OP, and what you propose as a change.

You might find others actually responding positively to that type of post.

I am glad you changed your position.

As I said, first priority is to fix things not working as intended. That is a no-brainer as only people in the know get power from those things. Balance adjustments can follow.

Already did that, but was ignored. Let's start looking at the 20% HP from capstone, the free temp HP from aura and Shinning through.

[Ellihor]

They are all listed in this thread.

I did not read this whole thread. Is it so hard for you to point out exactly what are these builds? I did that in the post you are quoting, do you agree with this selection?

[nokowi]

Already did that, but was ignored. Let's start looking at the 20% HP from capstone, the free temp HP from aura and Shinning through.

You want to eliminate these completely?

What will you replace them with?

Do you see any Warlock builds that over perform that don't use these abilities?

[slarden]

Already did that, but was ignored. Let's start looking at the 20% HP from capstone, the free temp HP from aura and Shinning through.

sure remove the 20% hp and change the slas from close range to long range like other casters have. I have no issue removing the temp hp - I don't need those anyhow and at times haven't even bothered to take it.

Taking away the 20% hp is pointless since any build can splash /3 fighter or paladin and get that for very few AP. The reason ES hp boost makes sense is because all damage is delivered from melee range. The goal shouldn't be to make warlocks equal or less than equal to other casters in every category - it should be to make warlocks equal to other casters overall. At the moment Wizard, Sorc and Warlock are about equal in LE. Clerics, Druids and to a lesser extent favored souls are not. So you how are you going to nerf wizards to match your proposed warlock nerf? It only makes sense to talk nerfs if talking about all the nerfs at once.

[Cableman]

Already did that, but was ignored. Let's start looking at the 20% HP from capstone, the free temp HP from aura and Shinning through.

Those are not the issue. The issue is the dumping of charisma and pumping Constitution. A DC should be added to the blast portion in addition to the pact. Arcane spell failure for both bursts and blasts when using non proficient armor or using a shield. Some melee centric enhancements added to replace the pet centric enhancements. Perhaps minimum charisma requirements for each tier of blast/pact dice. I think you have to make it overwhelmingly painful to go away from charisma and build for Constitution.

[slarden]

Those are not the issue. The issue is the dumping of charisma and pumping Constitution. A DC should be added to the blast portion in addition to the pact. Arcane spell failure for both bursts and blasts when using non proficient armor or using a shield. Some melee centric enhancements added to replace the pet centric enhancements. Perhaps minimum charisma requirements for each tier of blast/pact dice. I think you have to make it overwhelmingly painful to go away from charisma and build for Constitution.

Yes exactly. Truth is very little power comes from the ES tree. Skyvault shield allows any caster to get 45 PRR and 15 MRR with no arcane spell failure. Past lifes allow 36 PRR and 18 MRR with no trade off. LGS provides 36% hp bonus and 36% crit damage bonus. 20% hp bonus from unyielding sentinel on top of con and hp bonuses from that tree. All you do by nerfing ES tree is hurt new and casual players who I throw raises to all the time and aren't OP as it is. Warlock does not make people into killing machine immune to death as people are implying. If it was up to me base and light damage would be subject to will save and pact damage subject to pact save. No other changes beyond that are needed. Will saves are easiest to hit so it's still new-player friendly and not requiring past lifes and tomes.

[Ellihor]

You want to eliminate these completely?
What will you replace them with?
Do you see any Warlock builds that over perform that don't use these abilities?

Yes. Nothing. I only know one warlock in live that doesn't use those abilities, and I'd have to play more with him to have an oppinion.

sure remove the 20% hp and change the slas from close range to long range like other casters have. I have no issue removing the temp hp - I don't need those anyhow and at times haven't even bothered to take it.

Why? You said yourself sorcerers and wizards are fine. If removed those defenses, but gave them range, they would become bascially a sorcerer that doesn't spend SP. It is only balanced that they can do that, but at close range.

Taking away the 20% hp is pointless since any build can splash /3 fighter or paladin and get that for very few AP.

You loose damage from the capstone and core 18.

At the moment Wizard, Sorc and Warlock are about equal in LE.

You keep saying this. You are the only person I've ever seen saying such thing. The overwhelming majority belive they are not comparable. I wonder why currently there is nobody playing a non-shiradi sorc in my server, and only a couple wizards?

[Ellihor]

Yes exactly. Truth is very little power comes from the ES tree. Skyvault shield allows any caster to get 45 PRR and 15 MRR with no arcane spell failure. Past lifes allow 36 PRR and 18 MRR with no trade off. LGS provides 36% hp bonus and 36% crit damage bonus. 20% hp bonus from unyielding sentinel on top of con and hp bonuses from that tree. All you do by nerfing ES tree is hurt new and casual players who I throw raises to all the time and aren't OP as it is. Warlock does not make people into killing machine immune to death as people are implying. If it was up to me base and light damage would be subject to will save and pact damage subject to pact save. No other changes beyond that are needed. Will saves are easiest to hit so it's still new-player friendly and not requiring past lifes and tomes.

What? I don't know any warlocks who use shields these days, or who run in sentinel. And the majority are CHA based. Maybe that's a problem with your server.

[slarden]

Yes. Nothing. I only know one warlock in live that doesn't use those abilities, and I'd have to play more with him to have an oppinion.

Why? You said yourself sorcerers and wizards are fine. If removed those defenses, but gave them range, they would become bascially a sorcerer that doesn't spend SP. It is only balanced that they can do that, but at close range.

You loose damage from the capstone and core 18.

You keep saying this. You are the only person I've ever seen saying such thing. The overwhelming majority belive they are not comparable. I wonder why currently there is nobody playing a non-shiradi sorc in my server, and only a couple wizards?

So only a couple of wizards on your entire server and yet I am crushing le content with 2 wizard (randslar 17 wiz/3 fvs archamge and randek 18 wiz/ 2 rogue instakiller). I didn't realize I was the only that can figure out to make them work lol. The devs are free to test those 2 characters along with my 2 warlocks (randowl 20 warlock es blaster and randomall 20 warlock SE/TS instakiller). If the devs want a good test, try each in part 1 shroud LE, tempest spine LE, slavers LE.


If you can't roll over slavers with a wizard or sorc you are playing it wrong because they are just as OP as warlocks in that content. As I already said I prefer my 17 wiz/3 fvs for slavers very slightly over my ES blasting warlock and I provided the specific reasons why they clear the dungeon at roughly the same speed, neither running into resource issues and neither having to worry about death. PM immunities and self healing are just as big of an advantage as the 20% hp boost for warlock in my opinion. You focus on warlock advantages while totally ignoring disadvantages (splashing is hard because damage scales with warlock level rather than caster level for example - only 1 decent dps option besides eld blast and eld blast slas). You refuse to acknowledge strong advantages that wizard has that warlock doesn't have. The fact that you want such massive nerfs for warlock but think wizard needs no changes is laughable. I play both and have openly disclosed most of my builds already- see my sig for some. I am rolling over content in both equally well. All I want is nerfs to make sense. Either nerf them all or don't nerf - I don't care. But don't pretend the only strong build in the game is warlock - it's just not true.

As for free spells warlocks also have less spell points and I see non-warlock casters skipping shrines all the time so it seems conservation isn't an issue. Here is just one example

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5886212

What? I don't know any warlocks who use shields these days, or who run in sentinel. And the majority are CHA based. Maybe that's a problem with your server.

The videos and OP warlock examples given are all using shields and con based. You don't appear to understand warlock builds very well.

That is where the massive defenses are coming from and not the warlock tree.