Warlock NERF Again

[slarden]

At the end of 40 pages, can we agree that warlock and some other classes do over perform and some nerf is needed to make this game at least I bit harder?

or just wait until reaper and see where things stand. I see no need or benefit for the devs to react to this thread. All it will do is lead to more nerf warlock threads and more sock puppet accounts so powerless people can feel a little power when they a convince the devs to make another knee jerk reaction.

the things making these builds strong have little to do with the warlock tree.

[BigErkyKid]

At the end of 40 pages, can we agree that warlock and some other classes do over perform and some nerf is needed to make this game at least I bit harder?

This is the question. Somehow it got turned into a e-peen competition. Some classes are better than others. Some are so good that the game becomes easy. This is the reason why we now need reaper. Because of the general buffage.

Is the game super easy (at level) for some of the current classes on EE/LE? No one is complaining that they demolish all content on their x-bow arty, even though general buffs have become quite prevalent too so who knows.

The problem of resorting to Reaper (which is a nerf combined with LE shroud) is that it is cheesy as heck. 1-shot kills everyone but tanks, CC and kill, shield blocking passive tanks, and so on. I wanted reaper, but seeing that it will just be used as band aid, I am not sure I like it anymore.

Everyone in this thread, literally everyone, agrees that some classes/builds pull ahead of others. And that sometimes it is by an excessive margin. Why not simply fix that?

[TBot1234]

I see no need or benefit for the devs to react to this thread.

I hope the devs do see it, read it carefully, evaluate it, take note of all the people saying there are multiple areas where things could be improved (including the Warlock aspects, other OP builds, and balance issues in general) and take action.

[nokowi]

Nope, the best solution for those too casual or too unskilled is they play hard normal or casual , this is why we have 4 difficulties. Giving every one an easy button autowin toon to run the max difficulty even if you are not suit for it is the worse that could have happened. That's 1 of the reasons no one run those difficulties anymore.

So cancel every class pass but melee rogue and the current monk implementation, prior to wis to damage?

I could agree with that.

You can even drop the rogue pass. This game has been easy to solo for a long time.


Here are two videos from when max level was 28 (pre-rogue pass).

End of the road (U22). https://youtu.be/Z-u5dfLKQik

While not current, it shows how you can control what you are fighting as an assassin, skip by mobs, etc. You see me grabbing mobs with bluff a lot because assassinate was bugged in U22 (everyone auto-spotted you when you assassinated a mob, and there was an issue with grazing hits that caused your first assassinate to fail when there should not have been). It was before the rogue pass, so my damage is really low. While much of the info is not current, (assassinate is not on a 6 second timer, traps are now based on your disable device score), I like how it shows solo play. Today I would be using assassins trick on the umbral shrouds, which lets you get sneak attack damage on them. This video is what solo elite might look like for you if you are on really challenging content, although most of the game is much easier today. Instead of bluffing, you should now be able to just assassinate every mob that is not undead without being seen (spiders, scorpions, etc being the exception --> they too can be assassinated if you can keep from having agro or cause blindness). Assassins trick even gives you a chance to assassinate vs those otherwise immune to sneak attack. We now have champions that also may or may not be able to be insta-killed (some are immune). The trick to solo play is not biting off more than you can chew (mostly champions in today's game), and figuring out when it's faster to wait for your assassinate timer to reset, when to lay down a trap, and when to simply DPS the remaining mobs.


EE Fleshmaker (U23). https://youtu.be/ikwI_iUpgi0

Now that assassinate is fixed in U23, you can better see solo play. Necro IV was some of the hardest quests chains at the time of this video. This is still before the rogue pass, so my damage was about 30-40% of what it would be today at level, and I didn't have shiv (grants sneak attack) or assassins trick to help get sneak attack vs things like flesh golems.

[nokowi]

Alright will post a screen later, once i get home.

Great!

[nokowi]

You're right Eth, I'm going to jump out of this thread as my position after 40 pages I think is quite clear

AWW, not a SINGLE group video when the (nerf) complaints were about Warlocks dominating in groups.

Hilarious.

[Zoriaan]

AWW, not a SINGLE group video when the (nerf) complaints were about Warlocks dominating in groups.

Hilarious.

The video wont really achieve anything...leading kill counts mean nothing as that is not how the battle is won or lost, nor does it define dominance in a game.

Regardless I can say that I have been with Van in groups that complete part 3 in 11 minutes - that is with no furyshotter in the group. With a furyshotter for more red named DPS and more dedicated zerg that can be done in sub 10 minutes. Typical kill counts when we are both on our locks vs rest of grp not on locks are maybe 90 or 100 each for myself and Van and maybe 10 to each of the other players...in the LFM's I post and just grab the 1st 5 that hit the LFM typical numbers are me on my main about 250 kills, rest of the players maybe 10-20 each...

How do people define dominating? IMO kill-count is not dominating...everyone brings something different to the table...like I said earlier I will gladly sit back on a furyshotter and let the lock clear the trash and when the red-named boss pops up it will be my time to shine with some burst damage...

I am not a bad player but I am not as good as some of the people in Van's guild....but if you want to define dominating by kill count...then yes...there are maybe one or two people on the server that will keep up with me on my lock...and those Van and his guildmates on their locks and pale masters...nobody else. That is not me showing off but that is just the way it is - does it ruin other peoples fun? I don't really care.

I will say this...if you can keep up in kill count with your Assassin compared to my main on his Lock life (as you have said multiple times you did in raids etc to other top players) I will straight up quit the game. Again this does not mean your assasin is bad - he will shine in other areas...but for FAST trash clearing in QUESTS (NOT LE Raids) locks are top of the pile along with "carrot up the bumhole" zombies, furyshotters in the hands of good players and trees. But lock beats them to the line I think...

So I dont really know what you want to see from a video? Warlocks will lead the kill counts in 98% of the content (if not they are either very bad players or straight up tanky 500prr locks), same as well played sorcs will if there is no good locks or pale masters in a party etc...but again kill count does not mean anything, only to people trying to compensate for something else....

Again my stance has always been clear...I dont care either way..nerf ****, buff ****, I don't care I can adapt and I will keep enjoying DDO for what it is and the way I want to enjoy it. If that stops I will move on to another game.

[BigErkyKid]

AWW, not a SINGLE group video when the (nerf) complaints were about Warlocks dominating in groups.

Hilarious.

Taking over the trouble maker role? Anyone actually playing with warlocks knows what happens to trash in quests and lower tier ( either difficulty or level) raids.

[psykopeta]

Yay nerf everything thread!

Much funnier than whiners ruining others fun

It would be much cooler if casters had spell slots and damage values were closrr to pnp, having bosses with thousands hp is WOWish, imo

But then whiners would come again because someone ruined their fun, cause whiners don't use to care about balance, they use to have serious e-peen issues or maturing ones

[nokowi]

The video wont really achieve anything...leading kill counts mean nothing as that is not how the battle is won or lost, nor does it define dominance in a game.

Regardless I can say that I have been with Van in groups that complete part 3 in 11 minutes - that is with no furyshotter in the group. With a furyshotter for more red named DPS and more dedicated zerg that can be done in sub 10 minutes. Typical kill counts when we are both on our locks vs rest of grp not on locks are maybe 90 or 100 each for myself and Van and maybe 10 to each of the other players...in the LFM's I post and just grab the 1st 5 that hit the LFM typical numbers are me on my main about 250 kills, rest of the players maybe 10-20 each...

How do people define dominating? IMO kill-count is not dominating...everyone brings something different to the table...like I said earlier I will gladly sit back on a furyshotter and let the lock clear the trash and when the red-named boss pops up it will be my time to shine with some burst damage...

I am not a bad player but I am not as good as some of the people in Van's guild....but if you want to define dominating by kill count...then yes...there are maybe one or two people on the server that will keep up with me on my lock...and those Van and his guildmates on their locks and pale masters...nobody else. That is not me showing off but that is just the way it is - does it ruin other peoples fun? I don't really care.

I will say this...if you can keep up in kill count with your Assassin compared to my main on his Lock life (as you have said multiple times you did in raids etc to other top players) I will straight up quit the game. Again this does not mean your assasin is bad - he will shine in other areas...but for FAST trash clearing in QUESTS (NOT LE Raids) locks are top of the pile along with "carrot up the bumhole" zombies, furyshotters in the hands of good players and trees. But lock beats them to the line I think...

So I dont really know what you want to see from a video? Warlocks will lead the kill counts in 98% of the content (if not they are either very bad players or straight up tanky 500prr locks), same as well played sorcs will if there is no good locks or pale masters in a party etc...but again kill count does not mean anything, only to people trying to compensate for something else....

Again my stance has always been clear...I dont care either way..nerf ****, buff ****, I don't care I can adapt and I will keep enjoying DDO for what it is and the way I want to enjoy it. If that stops I will move on to another game.

Most people in this thread have no problem using only time of solo runs as a measure of group power. If we had group runs, we could discuss how each toon contributes in a group, and which make-up of group perform best. I see no takers, because that doesn't really serve the interest of those trying to advance Warlock nerfs. You yourself have mentioned the usefulness of furyshotters. It's not Warlock or nothing as the complainers would have you believe. Go watch Gingerspyce's druid build in a group and watch how he fills whatever role the party needs. This thread is laser focused on SOLO timed runs instead of what each build brings to the table in a group.

Lacking all common sense, you can define power as running solo through non challenging content the fastest. And add ridiculous strings like
1. You must gather for red alert and kill all mobs.
2. You can't use kill counts but you must kill everything and the look at the time to measure power.
3. You can't use any ability deemed as "cheese"
4. You can't have any past lives
5. You can't use good gear
6. You can't use readily available materials (spell pots, etc)

Or you can use common sense and see how each build contributes in a group, because there is no solo build that affects anybody else.

[nokowi]

Taking over the trouble maker role? Anyone actually playing with warlocks knows what happens to trash in quests and lower tier ( either difficulty or level) raids.

Which is where you value power.

Which where I say who cares?

Power only matters in challenging content.

If you need the fastest way to defeat non challenging content then play that class and stop trying to nerf it.

[BigErkyKid]

Which is where you value power.

Which where I say who cares?

Power only matters in challenging content.

If you need the fastest way to defeat non challenging content then play that class and stop trying to nerf it.

This is the thing. I find some of the content challenging in some classes. So maybe it isn't the content, but rather the power we have.

I play curse the sky on a barb, and I find that I have to be careful. I play it on a warlock, and I demolish it with little thought. (and these are actual gameplay experiences, I have played both classes multiple times, with multiple builds, in that content).

Now yes, I can demolish some of the content (a lot of it) on all classes, but THERE ARE small patches of difficult content.

For example, search and rescue. If you are not careful the dragon breath of the kobold shamans can obliterate you on some classes. Or in slavers, I cannot beat the whole chain easily on my barb, or my pure fleshy kensei, but I crush it on a warlock, and I can finish it on a ranger. Add toee p1 to this. No care plus fleshy melee class results in plenty of deaths.

So why is it that I, a single player (hence holding skill constant), have trouble in some content with some classes and I don't with others? Simply because some classes are better all around. Being better, as in they have more power, they make content easy.

Some argue that content is too easy, and agree for the most part, but then I look at the classes used, and then I start disagreeing. Because for the most part they are the overperforming builds, classes, and archetypes. And as I said, it seems to me that the easiest way to bring back challenge to the game is not to reinvent the wheel with a complete new gameplay mode (reaper), but rather toning down character power to a level where there is challenge.

Some will say that they can solo easily anything on any class. Maybe thats true, maybe their superior skill makes up for the extra challenge. The question is different, the issue is whether it would be possible to have current content be challenging for the majority of players. And the fact that on some of the less powerful classes there is still some challenging content seems a good promising start.

So my suggestion for the devs: what makes the existing challenging content particularly difficult on some classes? And look at that challenge component and build from there. Now if it doesn't challenge other classes, what particular things could be brought in that would challenge them? Or what is it particularly that those OP builds have that nullifies the challenge that other builds face?

[slarden]

So why is it that I, a single player (hence holding skill constant), have trouble in some content with some classes and I don't with others? Simply because some classes are better all around. Being better, as in they have more power, they make content easy.

Some argue that content is too easy, and agree for the most part, but then I look at the classes used, and then I start disagreeing. Because for the most part they are the overperforming builds, classes, and archetypes. And as I said, it seems to me that the easiest way to bring back challenge to the game is not to reinvent the wheel with a complete new gameplay mode (reaper), but rather toning down character power to a level where there is challenge.

My assessment is that some builds are easy buttons and others are more complex and difficult to play.

On one extreme is the Enlightened Spirit Warlock which is a very forgiving build and easy to understand (blast blast blast move move move). If you are dying throw on a skyvault shield with feats and a twist. If you are still dying respec to max out con. From it you lose maybe 15-20% dps or so excluding epic spells.

On the other extreme is assassin which is about as unforgiving build as you will find in LE content, but the people that really know how to play an assassin can look amazing but it requires a massive investment compared to a warlock. I have no doubt Nokowi can solo the end fight of Slavers 3. I doubt many others in this thread could without significant practice.

Not that Tempest Spine is the best benchmark but blasting warlocks are not easy buttons in that raid.

I will give you a heroic and epic box to minimize how much time it takes to get your warlock to 30. I will help you farm for gear. If you (your OP warlock) and Nokowi (assassin) go in two-man to clear the mobs before the strength levers there will be a big disparity in kill count, but it won't be your op warlock leading. If I am wrong and you outkill nokowi I will be happy to change my position and lobby to nerf warlock. I will go in just to throw raises in case anyone dies.

I think there are some classes that still need passes to get up to speed (cleric esp comes to mind) for reaper, but the disparity has more to do with easy-buttonness more than power. There are many builds with equal or better power than warlock at the moment unless you laser focus on one chain where aoe is king. Truth is past lifes, gearing and player knowledge play a bigger role the more difficult a given build is to play. I think it's good for the game to have some easy button builds and equally important to have some difficult builds like assassin to play.

[nokowi]

This is the thing. I find some of the content challenging in some classes. So maybe it isn't the content, but rather the power we have.

I play curse the sky on a barb, and I find that I have to be careful. I play it on a warlock, and I demolish it with little thought. (and these are actual gameplay experiences, I have played both classes multiple times, with multiple builds, in that content).

Now yes, I can demolish some of the content (a lot of it) on all classes, but THERE ARE small patches of difficult content.

For example, search and rescue. If you are not careful the dragon breath of the kobold shamans can obliterate you on some classes. Or in slavers, I cannot beat the whole chain easily on my barb, or my pure fleshy kensei, but I crush it on a warlock, and I can finish it on a ranger. Add toee p1 to this. No care plus fleshy melee class results in plenty of deaths.

So why is it that I, a single player (hence holding skill constant), have trouble in some content with some classes and I don't with others? Simply because some classes are better all around. Being better, as in they have more power, they make content easy.

Some argue that content is too easy, and agree for the most part, but then I look at the classes used, and then I start disagreeing. Because for the most part they are the overperforming builds, classes, and archetypes. And as I said, it seems to me that the easiest way to bring back challenge to the game is not to reinvent the wheel with a complete new gameplay mode (reaper), but rather toning down character power to a level where there is challenge.

Some will say that they can solo easily anything on any class. Maybe thats true, maybe their superior skill makes up for the extra challenge. The question is different, the issue is whether it would be possible to have current content be challenging for the majority of players. And the fact that on some of the less powerful classes there is still some challenging content seems a good promising start.

So my suggestion for the devs: what makes the existing challenging content particularly difficult on some classes? And look at that challenge component and build from there. Now if it doesn't challenge other classes, what particular things could be brought in that would challenge them? Or what is it particularly that those OP builds have that nullifies the challenge that other builds face?

You're really complaining about some content being more challenging on different classes?

If all content was equally challenging for all builds, the game would be too easy or too hard for 95% of players. Having variation is the only thing that tries to ensure there are portions of the game that meet your individual preferences. This is important in a static PVE game.

I think you have no concept of how awful your suggestions would make the game. Your suggestions only work if they design the game around you and nobody else, and would likely drop the player base to a few percent of the current population.

Do you understand the concept that there are players less skilled than you for which Warlock might be the appropriate level of challenge, even if it is too easy for you?

[BigErkyKid]

You're really complaining about some content being more challenging on different classes?

Nope. I am "complaining" about certain classes being challenged in some content, and others not being challenged in "any" content.

If all content was equally challenging for all builds, the game would be too easy or too hard for 95% of players. Having variation is the only thing that tries to ensure there are portions of the game that meet your individual preferences. This is important in a static PVE game.

Again not what I am saying.

I think you have no concept of how awful your suggestions would make the game. Your suggestions only work if they design the game around you and nobody else, and would likely drop the player base to a few percent of the current population.

????

Do you understand the concept that there are players less skilled than you for which Warlock might be the appropriate level of challenge, even if it is too easy for you?

I do understand that this can be the case, but I don't share the premise. Some classes should be more forgiving than others, but that does not mean giving them more power. A cleric is very forgiving to level, but hardly anyone would argue it is more powerful than the top builds. I don't think that the fact that there are rookie players automatically implies the devs have to give them powerful easy buttons.

The cleric example is pretty good, as it is a class that at lower levels / difficulties packs most of what you could need, and I am sure can do great in EH/LH in the vast majority of quests (even raids if you lower difficulty). So encourage newbies to play clerics over fighters or assassins, but there is no need to create warlocks for that.

And as I said, this is not even a warlock ALONE thing. It is the general existence of A-B-C level builds.

[slarden]

And as I said, this is not even a warlock ALONE thing. It is the general existence of A-B-C level builds.

Is there a chance the devs can ever get that perfect? I don't think so.

If they try to make balance perfect is there a chance they will inadvertently introduce bigger balance issues? Of course - we've already seen that.

As long as those difference only matter in reaper that doesn't have unique powerful items it won't matter. Anyone with any reasonable build can get their slavers items and LGS. The balance issues only become problematic when they can't get gear or items because nobody will accept them in raids. I used to see that with arcane archers in epic raids long ago for example - but haven't seen that in a long time.

People can always switch builds if they feel underpowered.

[BigErkyKid]

My assessment is that some builds are easy buttons and others are more complex and difficult to play.

This is true, but it is not related to what I was saying. I reiterate:

So why is it that I, a single player (hence holding skill constant), have trouble in some content with some classes and I don't with others? Simply because some classes are better all around. Being better, as in they have more power, they make content easy.

Do we agree with the premise that the more powerful all around the class, the easier content? A class can have very powerful abilities (insta kill say), and yet not be very powerful all around because it lacks self healing and what not.

When a class defeats the vast majority of content more easily than another, then I say that the former dominates the latter.

On one extreme is the Enlightened Spirit Warlock which is a very forgiving build and easy to understand
...
On the other extreme is assassin which is about as unforgiving build as you will find in LE content, but the people that really know how to play an assassin can look amazing but it requires a massive investment compared to a warlock. I have no doubt Nokowi can solo the end fight of Slavers 3. I doubt many others in this thread could without significant practice.

Whether he can solo it or not is irrelevant. Is the warlock faster and easier? That means it is more powerful. Because it is the power that makes the game easy, holding skill constant.

Not that Tempest Spine is the best benchmark but blasting warlocks are not easy buttons in that raid.

I will give you a heroic and epic box to minimize how much time it takes to get your warlock to 30. I will help you farm for gear. If you (your OP warlock) and Nokowi (assassin) go in two-man to clear the mobs before the strength levers there will be a big disparity in kill count, but it won't be your op warlock leading. If I am wrong and you outkill nokowi I will be happy to change my position and lobby to nerf warlock. I will go in just to throw raises in case anyone dies.

Even if I go soul eater and I spec for insta-kills? I bet I can outkill him then. How about on a pale master, do you think his assassin could outkill me? You are bringing an example where the blaster doesn't do the absolute best. I get it, I already agreed to that point in the first pages of this thread. However, this is a tiny fraction of the content in the game. How about we move the challenge?

Can he solo FoT? Can he solo or duo FoTP? Can he solo Wyrm? Can he solo CITW? Can he solo LShroud? Or LTempest?

All those have been done by other classes. Now in quests, I bet I can completely outclass his assassin on a good warlock. Anytime, any quest, even me, not a huge warlock fan and hence probably not super skilled at it.

It is obvious to everyone that an assassin is a relatively weak archetype in DDO as things stand. Other classes and builds simply pack more power.

I think there are some classes that still need passes to get up to speed (cleric esp comes to mind) for reaper, but the disparity has more to do with easy-buttonness more than power.

There is both at play. I'll say it again, if ALL (absolutely all, raids, quests, at all levels) content is easier in some classes than others then it means a class is more powerful than another.

Can a fleshy kensei achieve:

solo FoT? Can he solo or duo FoTP? Can he solo Wyrm? Can he solo CITW? Can he solo LShroud? Or LTempest?

Or have the best speed run for ToEE, slavers, or any other relevant quest? Because it cannot, it is telling you something about the power level of the build.

There are many builds with equal or better power than warlock at the moment unless you laser focus on one chain where aoe is king.

No one disagrees with that. At the same time, it does NOT mean that there isn't a big imbalance in power between builds. See my comments above.

Truth is past lifes, gearing and player knowledge play a bigger role the more difficult a given build is to play. I think it's good for the game to have some easy button builds and equally important to have some difficult builds like assassin to play

Do those things matter? Yes. Should some classes be more advanced than others? IMHO ideally all classes should be able to spec for both advanced and easy play. But grant that there could be differences in how hard something is to play. See my example to Nowoki of a cleric.

Now are assassins in good shape because they are simply more advanced? Absolutely not. They are much behind other classes / archetypes. You said so yourself in a previous post, mentioning how you no longer play an assassin, despite loving it, because it is not good in the current meta.

If all classes had an overall power level of an assassin, the game would be more difficult. And perhaps even that is too much.

That's why adjusting power to the level of the weaker classes is, imo, the best way to make the game more interesting.

[BigErkyKid]

Is there a chance the devs can ever get that perfect? I don't think so.

If they try to make balance perfect is there a chance they will inadvertently introduce bigger balance issues? Of course - we've already seen that.

Who talks about perfection! I am talking about power levels. Some builds are so powerful that are literally soloing / duoing EVERYTHING in the game. Others can't. Isn't then the level of power of the weaker builds more reasonable and better to make the game interesting?

As long as those difference only matter in reaper that doesn't have unique powerful items it won't matter. Anyone with any reasonable build can get their slavers items and LGS. The balance issues only become problematic when they can't get gear or items because nobody will accept them in raids. I used to see that with arcane archers in epic raids long ago for example - but
haven't seen that in a long time.

If the game is easy enough that most can more accomplish everything, it doesn't matter, you are saying. And what I am saying is that there are challenging spots in the game. Look at them to see what makes it challenging for some classes. Adjust all classes so that those challenging spots become frequent in higher difficulties.

People can always switch builds if they feel underpowered

Why should they? why should people be constantly switching archetypes? This is only a sign of a poorly balanced game. Why should we go along with it? This might be how some people choose to play, but others have some nostalgia for some classes, personal preference, what not, and don't want to be chasing the FOTM not to be underpowered. I think it is perfectly legitimate, and so did the devs, hence why they started the whole balance pass thingy.

[Enoach]

Part of the problem with DDO and measuring power level is the fact that people can build characters and only need to use only a few elements/powers in the build.

People think of Warlocks, usually the ES blast stuff comes to mind and by that they see the player only doing the following

1. Blast 1
2. Blast 2
3. Draconic Blast
4. Shining Through
5. Repeat

Basically the 1, 2, 3 options on the toolbar on continuous loop.

When looking at other builds that people consider to be easy such as Wizard (FoD, PK, CoD and Wail) and at one point when Sorcerer ruled the DPS scene and Shiradi Champion builds. All of these were seen as having about 3ish cycle on repeat.

I will admit that if I only used 3ish of the powers of any one of my builds I personally would be bored.

But it is easy to simply focus on a few abilities and maximize them out. But is this the problem with the players or the environment?

I've always felt the issue was with the environment. For one many encounters and even dungeons simply are filled with the "same" mobs - Either they all have the same weakness or all have the same strength etc, even if they all look different. Turbine has toned down effects over the years such as adding recovery times and even time limits on spells that traditionally did not have a time limit but one was added. Examples of these are Curses, Flesh to Stone and Negative Levels. Having a recovery time on these types of abilities has made it so that players don't fear them effecting how they are playing the game.

This is why players can focus on a smaller portion of power to maximize it, because the other parts of the environment are not seen as a problem.

Again, I would like to point out that the initial video of the Warlock was done prior to the change of Shining Through going from 12x to 8x con. That is 200ish Temp HP difference on a 50 Con Warlock. I no doubt that the player can still complete this quest solo even with this change, but I would point out that it would most likely not be as easy.

I all for Turbine to add in mixes (they did a better job with the newest quest series) of mobs so that a single cycle of abilities is not more effective then using more abilities each character has. I think for the time it might be better to focus on fixing the Environment we play in before we walk any further down the road of build nerfs.

[silinteresting]

It is the general existence of A-B-C level builds.

may i ask for definition?, what in your opinion is a c level build and can you name them please?.

thankyou.

yourfriend sil