Warlock NERF Again

[Atheok]

Eth you fun ruiner!

He does that Bad Eth! ... Was really looking forward for the challange just so you know...

Meanwhile with Eth's build ...

[Vanhooger]

You don't compare solo runs to judge group performance.


FAIL from the start.


Show me these 4-6 man Warlock runs (they are so common in your opinion, it should be easy to do) and then let the rest of us try to beat 4-6 Warlock runs in time.

This would actually prove a point, regardless of the result.

The metric needs to be Warlock better than everyone else, not someones idea of what builds are OK to include and not include.

The metric should also include more than Slavers, but I'll put that one on hold for now (stating so as not to move goal posts later).

Alright will post a screen later, once i get home.

[slarden]

When you say you complete on a barbarian and a list of other toons in the way you did, then yeah, I think that some surprise is in order. I don't recall being derogatory, but if I was I apologize. I had not tried to solo it at the time (we are talking page 2), hence based my observation on my group play experience (which felt harder, perhaps it had to do with scaling). Around page 3 I decided to do it on a semi flavor build, and while I took a while, I got it done. So I understood that it was possible on some strong DPS melee build, fleshy and all, but at the same time harder.

The complaints about melee and fighter are quite valid, in my opinion. First, if you read our posts, we didn't say the fight was impossible, just harder (and it is) and probably not everyone can do it on those builds. I was not ashamed to acknowledge that I had failed on both a barbarian and on a fleshy kensei in heavy armor. Yet I can do it on another build (semi flavor ranger). To me that points out to power disparities, as I am equally skilled (or unskilled) but just switching builds.

Second, a lot of it referred to group play, where those toons are particularly outshined by other options which currently hold more power overall. Finally, I still think a barb or a fighter, as in the typical builds we see in the forums (for human builds) would have a pretty hard time in there. Having very high dodge is quite nice in that boss fight, as you know.



A pure fleshy kensei fighter has less healing than you do there, and has a lower dodge potential. At the moment, IMHO it is unclear whether fighter monk splashes are even weaker than more traditional fighters. The henshin MP boost and some of the clicky options are nice. In fact we have someone already crafting a monk/fighter split with 12k burst damage.

I still don't think I can do it on a pure fighter or barbarian, and while this has been done, I still think it is much harder than on other classes.

Now in your own words this is an easy quest. Take this to raids, and then the power disparity is quite obvious.



It also has abundant displacement clickies, tempest robe, a bunch of consumables, etc. Perhaps you have some LGS HP set? Cannot tell for sure, but 1600 without stalwart bonus hit points is not bad at all. It is fine, I never said you should try it on a holy club fighter, but it is not what we would call a first life under geared. More power to you, not much to say other than that.



No disagreement at all here.



I wouldn't count PM as over performing, although arguable it is incredibly strong in some content. It has a role, so to speak.



Again no disagreement.



Here is where we disagree. I don't think reaper should be the only measure of balance. A lot of people won't even play it.

You weren't the one being derogatory - sorry for the confusion there.

Let me just say this. This was a gimped version of the character I am planning to build on a main character - wanted to try a weaker version on a weaker character partially to prove a point but also to make sure it's going to be a good build. I always player build ideas on weaker characters first to test the idea and also to optimize play style which is easier to do on a weaker character.

Actual build is going to most likely be be 9 pal / 8 fighter / 3 monk. I didn't go with this split since it would have been dismissed more than it already has been due to self healing. Also didn't really have the gear to pull it off so int/con was ok compromise for a test.

With a main character I don't have to take con level ups like I did on this character. I will get gear first and will have optimal post lifes and gear.

Str 18/ con 16 / cha 16 level ups to str. Centered. Fire stance. Divine Might. Maul most likely, follower of silvanus if on maul with forgotten realms race or maybe onatar with warhammer although maul is looking pretty good.

You saw saves on screen shot now throw in 9 pal levels with a decent charisma plus lay on hands and more bonuses.

That build is going to absolutely crush that quest compared to the much weaker version I played just to prove a point but also for test purposes. I haven't tested everything though - am assuming pulverizer, crit damage from fire stance and bonus from silvanus stacks with everything else.

[2pc2]

Pls tell me im uber~

Not a bad time if it was a non invis run, still the secondary toon undergeared warlock did it just 1 min slower while killing everything. Honestly I don't know what's your point here, you took a multi tr full geared toon with 1000 hp healing aura ( which is the 2nd most OP thing in the game , just sightly behind warlock) you invis runed half the quest to save time and yet you failed to beat the time of a seconadry toon non full geared warlock by a significant margin after claiming severals time warlcoks had no dps... Keep the hard work though, those screenshots are very telling of the powergap and inbalance in between warlcoks and the rest, even other OP builds like undead shiradis can't come anywhere close.

[slarden]

Nope, the best solution for those too casual or too unskilled is they play hard normal or casual , this is why we have 4 difficulties. Giving every one an easy button autowin toon to run the max difficulty even if you are not suit for it is the worse that could have happened. That's 1 of the reasons no one run those difficulties anymore.

This is what you should be doing instead demanding warlock nerfs and assuming nobody can complete on certain builds just because you can't.

[Eth]

Eth you fun ruiner!

You have it the wrong way around. Ruins are fun.

[slarden]

And tell me...was it easy as wizard completion? Be honest.

PM had a rougher time first time through until I upped my fort. As it stands neither struggled in there. The biggest problem I had was barbarian due to slow effect from silver flame pots, but I only ran him through once - should do better now.

I think the 9 pal / 8 fighter / 3 monk version might end up being alot better in there - but don't know for certain yet.

[2pc2]

This is my 9th main I played a total of about 5 hours in the last year. He is undergeared without all the past lifes of my mains.

I have no idea how much time I can trim with better gear and some past lifes - but it would be easier and faster for sure on my main 4 characters.

Could you please tell us what pasts lifes do you have on that toon before I make any coment on the completion? It's quite important. If you can't clarify it I would assume you have 0 of the important past lifes, such as Divine or PDk ones...

[Atheok]

Not a bad time if it was a non invis run, still the secondary toon undergeared warlock did it just 1 min slower while killing everything. Honestly I don't know what's your point here, you took a multi tr full geared toon with 1000 hp healing aura ( which is the 2nd most OP thing in the game , just sightly behind warlock) you invis runed half the quest to save time and yet you failed to beat the time of a seconadry toon non full geared warlock by a significant margin after claiming severals time warlcoks had no dps... Keep the hard work though, those screenshots are very telling of the powergap and inbalance in between warlcoks and the rest, even other OP builds like undead shiradis can't come anywhere close.

Just beat that time with a warlock! It's all I want to see.. skip all mobs, all chests, invis as much as you want, wing as much as you want but beat the time

My point is that it should be at least 1 quest soloed by a warlock in the whole game, that should be done faster than any other build/class... If it is to be true, and Warlock is the most OP class/build in the game.

Now I don't want to talk about stuff like: can a warlock solo EE Fot? EE Peaks? EE Lob? or other challenging raids?... Proofs pls, cuz these have been speedran by few builds already. Convince me why warlock is so OP!

[Vanhooger]

Now to prove Warlock is over performing we need to do some speedrun. The thread evolution.

[Eth]

Now to prove Warlock is over performing we need to do some speedrun. The thread evolution.

I think after almost 800 posts you guys could just agree to disagree.

[Vanhooger]

PM had a rougher time first time through until I upped my fort. As it stands neither struggled in there. The biggest problem I had was barbarian due to slow effect from silver flame pots, but I only ran him through once - should do better now.

I think the 9 pal / 8 fighter / 3 monk version might end up being alot better in there - but don't know for certain yet.

At the end of 40 pages, can we agree that warlock and some other classes do over perform and some nerf is needed to make this game at least I bit harder?

[Vanhooger]

I think after almost 800 posts you guys could just agree to disagree.

You're right Eth, I'm going to jump out of this thread as my position after 40 pages I think is quite clear

[Atheok]

I think after almost 800 posts you guys could just agree to disagree.

I will always agree to disagree with all this thread And happy to do it too!

[Forzah]

I will always agree to disagree with all this thread And happy to do it too!

I do hope you agree with your own posts in this thread

[Eth]

I will always agree to disagree with all this thread And happy to do it too!

I disagree.

[Atheok]

I do hope you agree with your own posts in this thread

Never know.. I'll might just start the next "nerf warlock" thread.

Tbh, I don't even know why I'm defending warlock. I don't play one and I don't even like it. I'm not doing this pro bono thing anymore, I'm out

I disagree.

Last post.

[2pc2]

For any of you that think it's unbelievable that a melee fleshy can complete this easy chain.

I wanted to try this build and like to run it on weaker character first anyhow so was planning to do this anyhow. Let's see if the bigger talker on this thread can deliver a completion. Rhetorical question we all the know the answer.

This is my 9th main I played a total of about 5 hours in the last year. He is undergeared without all the past lifes of my mains. Since the biggest complaints about weak builds were monk, kensai and fleshys I combined all 3 and was planning 12 monk 8 fighter but this guy has 0 sorc lives and 0 fvs lifes so I would have needed pots - so I splashed 1 fvs giving up melee power 1 feat and wings so I could complete with 0 pots. On my main 12 monk 8 fighter would have been no problem.

I intentionally took 0 cleaves or aoe so I was under a worst case scenario for this quest where aoe is super good. So every damage I did the entire quest was single target damage with my 53 int and int to hit and int to damage.

Not the fastest time for sure - just under 35 min but this type of build is not best suited for this quest but would excel many other places. I faced almost no risk in end fight and if I had 2 piece lgs with acid and cold resist it would have been even easier. And even the monk poison immunity wasn't working as I took poison damage.

I have no idea how much time I can trim with better gear and some past lifes - but it would be easier and faster for sure on my main 4 characters.





I am not an elitist by any stretch, but I will say this - there are many players in this game that can complete quests with underpowered characters. The people saying this can't be completed by a fleshy melee are not those people and have no idea about the builds more powerful than warlock like thrower builds.

I prefer easy button builds because I play this game 20 hours per week and don't want all 20 hours to be an extreme challenge. I prefer mostly relaxed social play, but I can complete on builds that aren't ideal when I put my mind to it. While not ideal due to no aoe, the build does fine in here and has ALOT of room for improvement. This was first run on prototype build.

However, if you can't complete this quest consider the most obvious things that will make it easy
- Fort 250% + (Narels)
- high resists in acid and cold and absorb if possible (caster)
- ability to restore stat damage or entirely avoid it (I had had to use scrolls lol - not ideal but neither is this build)
- some way to go stretches without taking much damage - dodge + uncanny dodge, meld into darkness twist form shadowdancer etc. This helps alot with making progress if you find you are taking too much damage.

First, I have never said a melee can't complete, I just said it requires more skill, it's much harder, takes more resources, and is much less efficient than a warlock, because of the huge difference in power and playing skill reqired . And if you find any post of me saying that pls feel free to link it. Don't put words in my mouth I have not said.

I certainly doubted you could do it, I'm not sure if you could do it on a non tanky melee to be honest, after taking you 35 pages and 1000 excuses I don't know why it surprises you that some started to doubt.

But yet you did it, not with your bard, not with your barb, not with your kensei, not with your ranger, those that according to your wors were rolling over it; you had to use a defensive oriented or tanky melee, and thus your DPS was very poor, that's what happens to the non warlocks when they invest that hard in defensive stuff, their dps suffers greatly.

It took you double the time than an equaly secundary non geared warlock ( 18 vs 35 mins) while invis runing!!! (LOL) So an equaly geared and Past Life warlock did it double faster or was 100% more effective than the best melee completion you ( or anyone) could come with after 40 pages of thread, and he didn't need to invis run even. This just proves further the huge inbalance that we have with warlocks. That warlock didn't need to completly gimp his dps to the point it can't be called dps anymore to complete it. Maybe in 40 more pages you can come up with a better and more efficient completion an show us there is actually some balance, maybe.... I doubt it.

I see some incoherences with what you say an waht I can see on the screen shot also...

Since for whatever reason you refuse to disclose what past life feats you actually have on that toon I will assume you have 0 PRR past life feats form you words...

You have 147 PRR while not blitzing on the screen shot, on water stance.

Tempest spine robe is 38 PRR, stalwart stanace 25, Iron skin 20, 9 from henry mystic cores, insinghful prr item 18, maybe epic DR? 10?, that would be 120 with epic DR, still 27 or 9 divine past lifes away from the 147 in the screenshot, so ether I'm missing something or you are not being very honest about how mant past lifes or well geared this toon is...

[slarden]

Could you please tell us what pasts lifes do you have on that toon before I make any coment on the completion? It's quite important. If you can't clarify it I would assume you have 0 of the important past lifes, such as Divine or PDk ones...

As soon as you post your warlock completion with your 2pc2 account or acknowledge your real account and characters I am happy to do so.

You've made alot of demands but dodge everything. I've done enough for now - if you want more start building some credibility first.

[slarden]

I certainly doubted you could do it, I'm not sure if you could do it on a non tanky melee to be honest, after taking you 35 pages and 1000 excuses I don't know why it surprises you that some started to doubt.

I honestly didn't see any good players doubting it, just a few and nobody above a "B-" player. The good players understand this was not a hard thing to do already and why.

But yet you did it, not with your bard, not with your barb, not with your kensei, not with your ranger, those that according to your wors were rolling over it; you had to use a defensive oriented or tanky melee, and thus your DPS was very poor, that's what happens to the non warlocks when they invest that hard in defensive stuff, their dps suffers greatly.

This is the type of statement showing you really need to up your game. DPS was definitely not optimal because I didn't have the best gear. It was single target damage as I wanted to run on a build with no aoe damage. Of course it's going to take longer and originally the goal post was to complete.

My completion time was in line with the warlock video you posted 20 times. DPS isnt' bad. The build itself isnt bad and did good in there actually. Only thing is I have to spend more time fighting enemies one at a time. Despite my lack of gear and the fact this was literlaly a thrown together experimental build my single target damage is better than the warlock video you posted 20 times.

As I said I was out of town for a month on a hotel wifi and laptop - couldn't really group so I was soloing and tinkering with builds. Kensai and Paladin you don't accept because they are BF and neither is at cap any more. Barbarian tr'd to a new build for past life. Ranger was really 15 pal / 5 ranger. - so same as paladin but effectively the same as a ranger. Bard is a caster bard and if you can't believe a caster bard can roll over the content you are really behind the curve, but I if I had a swash I could do it with swash also. I played swash for a long time and it's solid. I did use pots on bard caster - in my build thread I specifically mention its not intended as a soloing build.

You are good at making excuses and experienced at dodging having to show any real evidence you know how to play this game well - for reasons obvious to the rest of us. Your credibility is already shot.

.. more changing the goal posts and nonsense....

This was not a tanky character lol. Truth is any character can get to 250% fort and 200 prr in Ld with blitz. In that quest it's esp easy because you can shrine and go back and get stacks on mudmen before end fight. Even a really op character can do that by using an underpowered weapon.

You have no credibility.

You make alot of odd statements.

You don't understand top tier tactics and builds

You criticize but never put up any screen shots of your own

I never needed to prove anything but posted anyhow on my 9th main with a gimpier build than I plan to use using the 2 classes you held out most as weakest on a fleshy.

The reason i had slower completion time is simple and has nothing to do with warlock : single-target fighting vs. aoe which has advantages some places but is not optimal for slavers. I wanted to show that you can still get a reasonable completion even with 0 aoe. Not sure if any other builds completed with 0 aoe or not - didn't pay close enough attention.

Second lack of gear. Mostly cc gear I made. 1 piece of bta slavers gear with prr, quality prr and heal skill since it kind of worked. No slavers stat gear no lgs. Weapons are from when cap was 28 - Amarath khopeshes. I was using int to hit and damage with a 53 int - lol - lots of room for improvement.

The end fight was an absolute cakewalk as it has been on my builds because I know how to beat it. Add lgs 2 piece set with acid/cold resist and hp bonus and run it on one of my other characters with the gear and pal splash - even easier.

It's been fun seeing you to waste so much time while not bothering to alter a single thing I would do, but the time has come to block the sock. You add nothing to the conversation. You don't seem to understand top-tier end game builds or tactics. There is nothing I can learn from you.