Warlock NERF Again

[2pc2]

I do have footage of my run, if there's interest.

Yes.

[Rys]

While it's true the damage it's sightly higer saying it's much greater is simply a lie.

Phew that was quick.

[2pc2]

You can see that. I use none for trash, 5 in end fight. The last one is also useless, the boss was bugged. So that makes it 4. Wipey uses all his Ross uses, I don't have Ross. Yet I consider myself less geared than Wipey and less experienced with this build. That should make up for my SP pots uses.

On my shiradi I won't use any. But this is a "Warlock needs to be nerfed" thread. Idk now on a Warlock with Ruins if there's need for pots or not. I reckon yes. But hey, you won't trust my feelings anyways. As someone else stated, it's just my imaginary uberness speaking. I really like to continue on that note.

On ginger's build I would definitely not use any pots, as he is not build with ruins. Will also take longer time for the completion.

Sorry but the vid has nothing uber on it, it takes you 5 sp pots and a lot of kitting on full self heal button class to make a decent time. Had the warlock on the vid drinked so many pots he could have done it faster too. Still with 5 pots you took about 10 mins to end the last fight while the warlock on the vid took 5-6, or half your time, he was 100% more efficient.
Congratulations you drank 5 pots to try prove you imaginary uberness and yet took you double time to kill the boss than a non dps oriented warlock. This juts proves further the huge inbalance in between clases. A really uber completion is that done by a fleshy non full selfhealing button melee or ranged, not a full heal button kitting caster who has to drink 5 pots to look decent, this has 0 merit in my book sorry. Still better than name calling and empty posts.

This is why vids are so much telling and screenshots can be missleading, if wipe really used 3 ross charges for his screenshot then this screenshot means much less, any toon/class who can drink as much pots as he wants can do it, it has 0 merit or value in that case.

[2pc2]

How do you rank existing builds, do you feel some are excessive poeerul with respect to others?

Easy.

Warlocks & undead shiradis with 1000 hp healing auras>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Some decent casters & broken trees>>>Some gimp casters>>>the rest

[Mr_Helmet]

Easy.

Warlocks & undead shiradis with 1000 hp healing auras>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Some decent casters & broken trees>>>Some gimp casters>>>the rest

I do not believe this to be true at all.

[Kotharsjach]

What has come up many times in this thread and which has been failed to be addressed is actual "class" balance. TWF Kopesh, shur-chucker, shiradi, tree, fury shotter.......etc. None of these are classes, nerf any specific class into the ground and these builds will adapt and remain. Most of these builds rely on a single aspect of a certain ED and some tweaks to those EDs would make those builds GARBAGE.

Pure caster comparison such as sorc to warlock in slavers LE are pretty pointless too. Because the difficulty of slavers is nothing impressive. Can a sorc/fvs/cleric/druid clear pack mobs in slavers as fast as a warlock? Probably, because the difficulty isn't enough to actually strain a caster's resources. Remove shrines from the quest chain and the warlock pulls ahead of all other casters by a LARGE margin. Added to that is that the difficulty isn't enough to actually test a decently geared character's toughness, in which the warlock pulls ahead by a LARGE margin as well. Added to that is that it is mostly stock mobs without particular immunities/resists/high saves/etc, in which situationally the warlock pulls ahead by a LARGE margin as well.

Having just soloed slavers part 3 LE on my flavor toon I understand the mechanics of the end fight perfectly well and it's really the only part that's moderately difficult. I have full confidence that I could make a first life warlock, get him to 30, throw some easily obtainable gear on him, load a lvl 0 trash ED and solo the end fight with little difficulty.

Frankly, if the metric for measuring "class balance" is which build/class can shave minutes off a LE raid, I find that to be a rather silly metric because all quests can be completed on any difficulty with a diverse party make-up and no specific class or build needed.

What IS concerning for me is when a class at the base level trivializes all content. If the ED exploit builds disappear that's fine by me, but they really haven't affected my play experience much. Warlock I see as a much greater threat to gameplay enjoyment and diversity.

Of the 9 slaver's LE runs I did this past week, the only one that was remotely interesting was a short-man with a assassin and a bard. The rest were by the numbers grind with 2 locks in the party.

As for the argument "but the meta will just change", fine, locks have had their time to shine, it will be refreshing to at least see some different visual effects when everything dies(sarcasm).

As for the argument "but what about the new players" quite honestly I doubt how much in this thread about defending warlock power levels is coming in the interest of new players. I think it's far more likely that it's in the interest of preserving easy-button middling alts........
There would be a heck of a lot of fat to trim before the warlock class becomes anything other than a great class and beginner friendly. More to the point, if your a new player any other class other than lock is going to seem gimp, un-fun, and weak, with the easy-button god-mode paraded in front of your face constantly there is little incentive to learn the mechanics of the game or try other classes, which I think is a large part of the experience that is DDO.

[Enoach]

Easy.

Warlocks & undead shiradis with 1000 hp healing auras>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Some decent casters & broken trees>>>Some gimp casters>>>the rest

That is both some nice Spell Power combined with Amplification. I'm only in the 700s with Metas myself and 77 Negative Healing (5% from Capstone and 72 from Belt) But I know the Death Aura this is only once every 3 seconds on a critical I've gotten nearly 800 HP and I have a 35% chance to critical with negative energy. I also never seem to get a tick when I'm unconscious, unlike my Paladin and Cleric. So based on the implemented rules I'm dead on my PM when I hit Zero aura or not.

Now with positive energy I have characters that have over 200% AMP so with positive energy thanks to enhancements and gear. I can see those getting closer to that amount. But they also suffer the 1/2 percent per spell power point.

[Atheok]

Sorry but the vid has nothing uber on it

Awesome, then you can do it too. Go ahead then! Just a screenshot is enough. Of a pure FVS, or heck, even a warlock build.

it takes you 5 sp pots and a lot of kitting on full self heal button class

correction: 2 full self heal buttons, including divine wrath here... it's nice to see you failing again tho, I use none of the spellpoints of the 5th pot

to make a decent time. Had the warlock on the vid drinked so many pots he could have done it faster too. Still with 5 pots you took about 10 mins to end the last fight while the warlock on the vid took 5-6, or half your time, he was 100% more efficient.

Decent time? hahaha... this is not a speedrun (9mins end fight btw), nor is ginger's run(6mins end fight)... 6 is not 9's half, when you state something that can be easily verified, be right on it, don't grow numbers from your belly, this is one of the reasons people might think of you as a buffoon

Congratulations you drank 5 pots to try prove you imaginary uberness and yet took you double time to kill the boss than a non dps oriented warlock.

Can I improve the time on a FVS, I surelly can. There is room for that. But it can't be done any faster on ginger's build than the time he got.

This juts proves further the huge inbalance in between clases. A really uber completion is that done by a fleshy non full selfhealing button melee or ranged, not a full heal button kitting caster who has to drink 5 pots to look decent, this has 0 merit in my book sorry. Still better than name calling and empty posts.

Why? Is it because in your imaginary world melees or ranged fail to come as close as shiradis or zombies in performance?

This is why vids are so much telling and screenshots can be missleading, if wipe really used 3 ross charges for his screenshot then this screenshot means much less, any toon/class who can drink as much pots as he wants can do it, it has 0 merit or value in that case.

Did you fail to read "I was not properly geared" part? LGS SP bonus set should have put me at 6k SP. How many pots do you think I would have used then? But hey, why don't you roll a FVS buy 5 pots and +1 lesser heart, in 3 days you should be capped. And do it yourself since there's nothing special about my run! Just a screenshot will be enough for me, I won't be asking for more. Or a warlock and beat my time or wipeys. I'm glad you throw FVS in the same OP boat with warlocks tho Maybe they need a nerf too in your imaginary balanced DDO...

I don't know why you keep doing this to yourself. You've been told multiple times by different forumites "there is a wall there!" yet u still keep banging your head into it...there's another video for you:

[Atheok]

It's just you refuse to speak about balance since you think it's impossible and maybe undesirable, and I don't agree with that.

So yeah, if yiur point is that nerfing warlock alone is a bad policy, I agree.

When new abilities, fears, classes are added then more care should be devoted to investigating how they perform wrt others, and wrt content.

How do you rank existing builds, do you feel some are excessive poeerul with respect to others?

Yes, I refuse to speak about it but the reason is because I believe it is irrelevant to current endgame's state. And will be irrelevant to reaper mode too, but reaper isn't out yet so I can't pronounce myself on something that I only played in Beta. Furthermore, a perfect balance is impossible and will also be boring.

Classes/builds need to be different with a limit of balance. Is that limit of balance reached? Is the Warlock OP to the point that is broken? I don't think that. Didn't think that before the last nerf it got, but I don't complain about it either.

I can't think of a build to be OP to the point that is broken. Only Shiradis, Necro Healing and Ranged were on Reaper in Lama, but hey that's only Beta.

Have in mind we are also half way already with our class passes. It is normal at this point to have some builds to not be doing so well. Wait for their class pass. While the classes that had it already, are not broken OP and this is the point some ppl fail to see.

[slarden]

Stop making excuses pls, if after 30 pages you didn’t know how to give some proof by yourself

If you can't do it on a non warlcok non cheesy build it's ok

Can’t wait to see the next batch of excuses, every new one is more surprising than the last.

Got love it when a random person wastes so much time going back and finding old quotes taken out of context. That is time you will never get back in your life I hope it was worth it lol.

I am not sure what you want. I can't go back in time and take video of runs I've already made. You won't accept caster or bladeforged builds which means I am left with my #9 build which hasn't yet run slavers. He's out of date and needs to be respec'd. I am more than willing to do it once I see your posts from this acct.

I think I made myself clear. I will be happy to complete slavers le on randiccar, my #9 character, but first you need to run a warlock on your 2pc2 account and post the results of an le completion with no deaths, post your character names and ask cordovan to verify the pics and account are the same so we know you are a real person and not just an account created to grief people.

If you do so I will complete on randiccar this weekend on a fleshy melee.

If you aren't serious I am not going to waste my time as you wasted yours on the previous post.

If you want to see a completion on randslar my wizard am happy to take a screen shot of that because it takes one sec while doing something I am planning to do anyhow - one it once per day on that character.

If this isn't a playing account and you can't do so, just reply and say you are using a different account for the forum than your playing account and I may make some other accommodation to run it for you. Or I may move the goal posts, it's a mystery.

[Tilomere]

I think I made myself clear. I will be happy to complete slavers le on randiccar, my #9 character, but first you need to run a warlock on your 2pc2 account and post the results of an le completion with no deaths.

I'm actually curious as to any completions on any character, any build, just for comparison purposes. Rounding up, a shiradi wiz by Sesstra was 22 mins, a FVS with 4 pots was 31 minutes, a sorc by Eth at 25 minutes, and here is a first life con-warlock at 24 minutes, below is Slarden at 21 minute on a shiradi wizard with 1/2 invis run.

The end fight is easy if you just continuously jump and cleave in a circle with consecrate on top of the guy in the middle. Shield the mages magic missile spells, and the jumping will make the mage and archer miss their attacks. In addition, you will be kiting the melee as you cleave them. That high spell power dire charge hell ball OS barb will easily have enough mana, hp, hamp, and spell power to do this fight easily, on a first life character, with decent gear.






Not the most optimal ED, I'll try a winged run later.

[slarden]

I'm actually curious as to any completions on any character, any build, just for comparison purposes.

Alright since you actually post nicely I'll post my wiz completion. I May post others but don't have much time except maybe once per day and I like running it on my wiz since he is immune to the poison traps in part 1 and that kills me more than anything in the chain.

17 Wizard 3 Favored Soul Shiradi in Shroud of the Wraith. Strong sp regen from just reward and some of my spells are unmeta'd for cheap dps combined with just reward recharging.





I have some physical limitations so I am not able to do some of the things I see the best players on Sarlona do, but I can do quite a bit. As is obvious from the kill count I did invis run past some things not because I can't kill it quickly, but because there is no point fighting those mobs.

I didn't really try to run it super fast - am guessing with a few runs focused on speed I might get to 16 min but I could be off by a little. 200 kills instead of 100 would maybe add a few min but not much since hp is low. Once my aura is on I can't invis run.

Obviously lgs resistance items help quite a bit as does undead/bf/wf immunities. The most important thing to survive the end fight is no big secret- high hp and prr or alternatively high levels of avoidance. Character has 2 piece lgs and 2 slavers item plus a ring with +7 ins con.

No pots. Used all 3 mana clickies on ring and 1 on trinket. Never even bothered with littany as I usually have 1500 sp at end of quest as I can group them up reasonably well once boss is down or untargetable.

Got 100 PRR on first audience of the queen and energy resist on the 2nd. Neither of those sucked but neither were unusual either.

[Atheok]

I'm actually curious as to any completions on any character, any build, just for comparison purposes.

Is this becoming a speed track thread now? btw, my fvs completion rounded up is 31 mins with 4 pots, not that is important, I don't know the purpose of these comparisons.

[slarden]

Is this becoming a speed track thread now? btw, my fvs completion rounded up is 31 mins with 4 pots, not that is important, I don't know the purpose of these comparisons.

Speed runs aren't my thing - I am a bit of a slower player and generally don't keep up with the fastest players unless I really make an effort.

Groups are finishing in 10 min or so with many variations in make-up. None of these runs seem like speed runs.

[BigErkyKid]

Yes, I refuse to speak about it but the reason is because I believe it is irrelevant to current endgame's state. And will be irrelevant to reaper mode too, but reaper isn't out yet so I can't pronounce myself on something that I only played in Beta. Furthermore, a perfect balance is impossible and will also be boring.

Classes/builds need to be different with a limit of balance. Is that limit of balance reached? Is the Warlock OP to the point that is broken? I don't think that. Didn't think that before the last nerf it got, but I don't complain about it either.

I can't think of a build to be OP to the point that is broken. Only Shiradis, Necro Healing and Ranged were on Reaper in Lama, but hey that's only Beta.

Have in mind we are also half way already with our class passes. It is normal at this point to have some builds to not be doing so well. Wait for their class pass. While the classes that had it already, are not broken OP and this is the point some ppl fail to see.

I see.

So what's your take on say a fleshy kensei? A pure human 20 fighter, is this a toon that can compete with shiradis / shurikens / and other A builds or not? How about a vanguard build?

At this point we have enough completions, and videos to make it clear, to see what is needed for at least that particular quest.

As another poster said, that quest isn't necessarily a great measure of balance, as mobs are pretty weak in general. It was chosen because for a lot of people this is sort of the current gear grind. However, even if the quest is not super difficult, for me it is obvious that it is more difficult for some builds than for others. Those of us who have tried it in fleshy melees know that unless you pack quite a bit of healing you can beat the dust easy.

But take the recent quests that are somehow difficult (not crazy difficult, just somehow) like curse the sky, demon assault, toee p1, Search and rescue perhaps. Those are often trivialized on some power builds. Run them in some classes that have had their pass, like a bard, fighter (flesh), barbarian, Melee rogue, and you will have chances of dying. Take for instances demon assault; a barb can do it just fine, but if for whatever reason I failed to kill fast the caster, sometimes they can stun you and you are a goner. Granted, this sometimes is the result of champ plus unlucky event, but it is a distinct possibility. However, on my warlock this was far more remote. Similar analysis can be done for the other quests.

So while most classes can complete most content, talking about quests, still chances to fail, ease of completion, those are indicators that to me point to power disparities. Now the question is why where those matter. The answer is that it depends. For once and done, it really doesn't. For gear grinding, it matters. While someone could get most of the stuff from slavers on any toon, the speed at which you could get it on say a fighter or a bard is lower than on other currently more suitable archetypes. In a game that has become a race to get items veteran new content invalidates them, I think this is important.

There is also the group play aspect of this. It is usually neglected because if content is easy, no one really cares if everyone pulls their weight or not. But give us challenging content and then we will see how people react.

Finally, where to is more obvious that some builds pull ahead of others by much is in the achievements part of the game. I guess no one will deny that. The issue with that being that it only interests a small minority. Nevertheless, I think they do a great service to the game showing how much you can push classes.

All in all, my impression is that people
Posting all those completions have confirmed my hypothesis. That this content in particular favors by much some archetypes over others. And my claim is that this extents to many other parts of the game.

[Atheok]

So what's your take on say a fleshy kensei? A pure human 20 fighter, is this a toon that can compete with shiradis / shurikens / and other A builds or not? How about a vanguard build?

How is that reflecting over warlocks? Maybe they are not as many flashy kensais playing around to try it currently, who knows... Why should I have a say in this? I don't play one. But tell you what... Bring in 6 "ginger" warlocks in that end fight vs 6 fleshy kensais. I think the fleshy kensais will do it faster than the warlocks, just a guess... sure, warlocks wont even have to move if they all cast consecration, but it wont make them finish it any faster.

First of all DDO is a Massively multiplayer online game. That for me means that solo runs should be limited to say lower difficulties, getting favor, farming heroic loot. The fact that is 95% of the content is or has been soloed says much about how the difficulty plays an important role.

I keep mentioning Reaper over and over because it brings back the missing MMO from the game. My first impression on it is that every quest will be impossible to complete without a proper and dedicated tank. And I'm not talking about a warlock wannabe tank.... ginger's warlock will die within 5 hits on Reaper 10 Skull and it's how it should be, because warlocks aren't supposed to be tanks!

Your problem is with fleshy kensais mitigation in that specific solo fight. Making you think the game looks unbalaced because ranged or casters can kite and dps, while melees can't. That won't be a problem anymore in Reaper. If you don't have a tank, you die, simple as that.

And I see people bringing out their views on how to balance the game, taking out on warlocks and shiradis... stating thing like warlocks are OP while leveling... with all seriousness, when you start talking about OP-ness, you automatically refer or must refer to endgame. So anything a warlock does in any quest that is not legendary is irrelevant to the discussion. Furthermore, we are left with a group of legendary quests, which are no different from just being epic but with a different name tag. And 3 Raids. Fairly what we could consider as endgame atm is only LE Shroud. If "Elite was elite" as it should have been, these chats out here will be about warlocks overperforming on solo normal. How do you not see how ridiculous all these talks are?

My ultimate challenge for this thread and for those who state warlocks need to be nerfed: state 1 quest/raid that has been soloed by a warlock and it hasn't been done better by some other build.
Yet, there is 1 completion out there, unequaled by anyone or any other build. And surprise. It's a melee without a full heal botton. How can people submit to discuss in such a low level thread and not consider that as an Ultimate Uberness build? It surprises me

[BigErkyKid]

How is that reflecting over warlocks?

It is a comparison. Warlock does it no trouble, kensei fleshy doesn't, so there is a power difference. The question is how much, in which content, etc.

First of all DDO is a Massively multiplayer online game. That for me means that solo runs should be limited to say lower difficulties, getting favor, farming heroic loot. The fact that is 95% of the content is or has been soloed says much about how the difficulty plays an important role.

Agreed.

I keep mentioning Reaper over and over because it brings back the missing MMO from the game. My first impression on it is that every quest will be impossible to complete without a proper and dedicated tank. And I'm not talking about a warlock wannabe tank.... ginger's warlock will die within 5 hits on Reaper 10 Skull and it's how it should be, because warlocks aren't supposed to be tanks!

2 comments on reaper.

First, if we hadn't been handed out so much power, perhaps we wouldn't need reaper.

Second, so far reaper seems pretty simplistic to me. Sure, it requires trinity work, but it kinda brute forces it with 1 shot mechanics and such.

I like the idea of rebalancing completely the game, and reaper attempts that. The way in which it is being done, not so much, since as I said it simplifies a lot the game. A lot of nuances are lost when a trash mob 1 shots you.

But that's a discussion for reaper.

I understand that you don't care so much about below top content gameplay, but sadly that makes for most of the game. And you can see plenty differences even between revamped classes.

[Atheok]

I understand that you don't care so much about below top content gameplay, but sadly that makes for most of the game. And you can see plenty differences even between revamped classes.

Why should anyone care about the difficulty, or imbalance of classes in that content? Because a newb warlock outkills your kensai in lvl16 quest and that upsets you? The fact that a p2p class has easy buttons for leveling quests it's actually a great thing to the game. It familiarizes new players with the game, introduces them to the encounters and prepares them for further maybe more challenging lives. The fact that warlock doesn't keep that uberness in epics (fails on red names) , furthermore in endgame (not useless but meh... hurl is the only uber thing they have) tells me how well balanced this class actually is.

I don't know your case, but I can speak from personal experience when I started playing DDO. All I wanted is to know what is the easiest build/class I can make. I wish I had a warlock option and not struggle with a gimp sword and board paladin with 0 dps. You think that is fun for new players? I couldn't solo anything past lvl2 on normal with that build.

So what you think makes out for most of the game, you have to acknowledge newbs are a part of it too. But they should never outperform a vet or anyone who pretends he can understand the term of OP-ness. If that happens then there's a problem with the vet rather than with the warlock class.

[Rys]

I wish I had a warlock option and not struggle with a gimp sword and board paladin with 0 dps.

You can't beat my fighter splashed with two levels of sorc for secret door detection and summon monster...

[Vanhooger]

The fact that warlock doesn't keep that uberness in epics (fails on red names) , furthermore in endgame (not useless but meh... hurl is the only uber thing they have) tells me how well balanced this class actually is.

Just LOL.