Warlock NERF Again

[nokowi]

I appeared. I never said it was impossible.

Demanding proof shows that you misunderstood. You don't have to say it for me.

Insinuating a player is not good must be easier for you than admitting that you lacked knowledge.

It's OK to be wrong on the forums, but to shift the blame to questioning another player (for which you have no knowledge) is really not OK.

Slarden has a history of posts that show good game knowledge, even if he is not posting the solo videos you so value.

Most good players gave up on solo videos as an accomplishment some time ago. The game is just too easy.

Those videos that remain are generally educational (like Ginger's) and my former DDO Assassin page.

[slarden]

Oh funny. The point was slarden doesn't have a reputation on the forums, Eth and others do. With not just one screenshot, but years of them and videos.

Don't worry. I don't want an apology I had a good loud laugh at it, and at yours "accusing someone is an opinion".

Besides, end of the little amusing OT. Let's go back to Warlocks

As I said, I posted many screen shots of elite completions over the years. They are in the forums under various builds. I was out of town for 4 weeks and only recently returned. All I did while out of town was solo or run with real life friends a few time as I was on an internet connection and laptop - not my favorite conditions. Most of what I did is LE slavers - haven't even run below elite yet. After 4 weeks of soloing I am not as interested in running solo at the moment.

I always run all my builds on elite solo when content is new so I know which characters are best and also which builds are starting to fall behind the meta curve and need adjusting. Sometimes I realize it's not worth it and recall on a specific build.

I never claim to be one of the best players in the game - not something I care about nor strive for. I wouldn't consider you to be either. I consider LE slavers to be easier than average content at the time it was released. I am confused why people think completion is so hard. Alot of people are complaining it's too easy and here a few people at a different place asking me to prove it's possible to solo elite.

[Atheok]

I'll raise you completion on useless class that is in dire need for updates.
Not gonna lie, the end fight is really difficult, my fvs has like 125 prr.

For the record, I still don't like warlocks. The class and whole gameplay represents everything that's wrong with combat in this game for last two years.
We always had easy buttons but never so common and such builds required investment and some game experience.

Yea but this is just another shiradi warlock tanky bladforged and people have been asking for something different. I hear flashy FVS and Sorcs are OP, should they get nerfed too? Or nvm, they not that OP if they can't solo p3 slavers. Only warlocks, shiradis or bladeforged can.

[MeliCat]

Just few questions,

For the average skilled player, (most of ddo population, i think for the overperforming skilled or unskilled player this may change), what is the "best" class(es) for easiest and effective gameplay (both), (dps, survival, solo ability, group ability, weaknesses, advantages, content, race and gear dependency, play skill dependency, potential, etc), and knowing that always will be something at the top, how is that difference or margin respect other classes? Is short or big, enough to matter?

I think many variables have to be included when trying to talk about overperforming, not just dps like some players seem to do or just easy play skill, or just potential, etc. I see powergamers tend to talk more oriented to dps and builds potential while the average player values more the easy play, resources and skill required. All of that matters, and every aspect (play skill difficulty, dps, defense, etc) should be compared between classes and builds.

For example a barbarian can do great damage but the problem is they may die on the try (how much),
A tank can survive very well, at the cost of losing damage, (how much damage)
cc builds can control enemies at the cost of some damage/defense (how much)
x build is easier to play at the cost of damage/contribution (how much)
x build can contribute better at the cost of skills, resources, play difficulty ( how much)

In the end, after seeing old videos of builds capable of soloing raids designed for 12+players in 7 min, is hard to talk about balance, but at least some things can be done.

Good question... I ask this all the time and because I'm not playing in the top echelons I usually get told to play whatever I want - either because you can usually get anything to work enough ( sort of) to do that. I've come to the conclusion it's better to find something you enjoy - and if you like it you can often get out of that character what someone who doesn't like it as much won't do.

I find it funny that my barbarian became my go-to instead of my monk as they are now more survivable with more damage - formally it was the other way around for survivability. Haven't played my monk enough recently to make up my mind about the new monk changes.

I don't think anyone makes genuine tank builds these days except strange people like this guy : https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...-Poppy-Contest! I've watched him play and the tank + healer thing is super useful in party but he's the first to tell you that there is very little dps. Don't know how fun it would be.

cc builds come and go. I had a nicely working druid but now gusts of wind take away earthquakes (LOL) - I put a lot of work into that and one tiny change to the way things work and she sits on the shelf. Bards with their ice are pretty awesome - with the changes to SWF. Tempted to try one. Hard to go past your classic wizard. But one I have things CCed if I haven't insta-killed them I'm kinda stuck taking a long time to make them dead At which point it's a matter of how much sp I have. Or how patient I am. I suspect bards are better.

All great questions... would love to hear the answers to them from some of whom I know to be absolutely top notch players in this thread. And things change - what is good now might be different in 6 months time.

[Chai]

Last time I reply to you on this.



I appeared. I never said it was impossible.

A common practice on these forums. Demanding evidence constantly while not submitting ones own premise, so theres room for a verbal retreat in case the demand for evidence is met, using the excuse that evidence doesn't prove those demanding it incorrect, because they never made a claim in the first place. A lack of position also allows those using this tactic to play offense 100% of the time without having to defend their own premise.

And this is how things work. You prove yourself first, and then people will know what you are able to do.

Bye, see you in guild chat

Turn that advice inward. If you haven't proven yourself, you have no business demanding said proof of others.

The way it ACTUALLY works, is both parties enter the discussion on equal footing, premise up, and have an on topic discussion. This does however mean, having to reciprocate on every demand you make, and back up said premise with the same proof demanded of others.

Anyone who wants a lopsided discussion where the other party must account for every claim made with evidence, but then has no premise to defend themselves, can be safely ignored, as they really don't have a dog in the fight, other than disagreeing with and challenging the same few people they have a history of always disagreeing with.

[Angelic-council]

Yea but this is just another shiradi warlock tanky bladforged and people have been asking for something different. I hear flashy FVS and Sorcs are OP, should they get nerfed too? Or nvm, they not that OP if they can't solo p3 slavers. Only warlocks, shiradis or bladeforged can.

I think you just gave terrible example. Warlocks don't require high DC to be successful, their SLAs are far more power than those heroic offensive spells and it can be cast for free. FvS/Sorc who heavily invested in DC/spell power can perform very good too. They just have different set of spells/approach, but do require more investment and massive SP consumption.

It's really not about who can or can't complete slave lord .. I wish more people knew that. Warlocks are extremely powerful class. I personally play it, and I never seen so much burst power. I kill things much faster than anyone else (since warlock release). But, I don't deny that warlocks will struggle in LE raids. DC casters are powerful where content is difficult, so FvS/Sorc/Wiz can do just fine. They might not have free spells, but they can CC or use epic spells which give them advantage.

I would be sad if they nerf warlocks. But I can tell that they are not perfectly balanced.

[CaptainPurge]

Taking bets on which will hit sooner....Godwin's Law or thread lock?

[Wizza]

I wouldn't consider you to be either.

Ah yes. Still more amusing when you push these little gems in your reply, when I havent said you are either bad or good but yet you have the necessity to throw these little provoking statements. Never stop please, I am having a lot of fun here

A common practice on these forums. Demanding evidence constantly while not submitting ones own premise, so theres room for a verbal retreat in case the demand for evidence is met, using the excuse that evidence doesn't prove those demanding it incorrect, because they never made a claim in the first place. A lack of position also allows those using this tactic to play offense 100% of the time without having to defend their own premise.


Turn that advice inward. If you haven't proven yourself, you have no business demanding said proof of others.

The way it ACTUALLY works, is both parties enter the discussion on equal footing, premise up, and have an on topic discussion. This does however mean, having to reciprocate on every demand you make, and back up said premise with the same proof demanded of others.

Anyone who wants a lopsided discussion where the other party must account for every claim made with evidence, but then has no premise to defend themselves, can be safely ignored, as they really don't have a dog in the fight, other than disagreeing with and challenging the same few people they have a history of always disagreeing with.

Ok

[BigErkyKid]

Just few questions,

For the average skilled player, (most of ddo population, i think for the overperforming skilled or unskilled player this may change), what is the "best" class(es) for easiest and effective gameplay (both), (dps, survival, solo ability, group ability, weaknesses, advantages, content, race and gear dependency, play skill dependency, potential, etc), and knowing that always will be something at the top, how is that difference or margin respect other classes? Is short or big, enough to matter?

The easiest class is warlock, particularly anything with quite a bit of ES. A divine crusader warlock, even CHA based, is fairly defensive, does not rely on DCs too much and hence doesn't need crazy stats. It is also good against all kinds of enemies (light is hardly ever resisted), packs a lot of free DPS (doesn't need that much SP), and generally allows you to complete with possibly the lowest risk of death any quest.

Its weakness is that it does not scale up great. In raids where mobs hit too hard, and have too many HPs, the defensive warlock is not amazing. Some people can make it work, and you can do fine (there is evidence of people doing just fine), but its not considered a top dog.

In groups, and for questing, the constant decent DPS AOE can become a party ****er for other members. A group with several warlocks (not limited, but this is a warlock example) will vaporize packs of mobs in the first few seconds of the encounter. While other classes can do the same, classes with less innate sustainable burst DPS will probably be unable to land many hits.

I think many variables have to be included when trying to talk about overperforming, not just dps like some players seem to do or just easy play skill, or just potential, etc. I see powergamers tend to talk more oriented to dps and builds potential while the average player values more the easy play, resources and skill required. All of that matters, and every aspect (play skill difficulty, dps, defense, etc) should be compared between classes and builds.
...
In the end, after seeing old videos of builds capable of soloing raids designed for 12+players in 7 min, is hard to talk about balance, but at least some things can be done.

Yes, something can be done.

It is very hard to agree on relative power scales, though. There are very many metrics. Power gamers tend to focus on speed runs and raid short manning. I think that's a valid measure of the performance of a build when taken to the limit. Some classes excelled at that (raids) but aren't the uberest in questing necessarily. For example, monkchers would fall in that category. For others it is kind of reversed (tanky warlock). Finally there are some builds that are powerful at both (shiradi crit builds, trees).

Generally, checking what people are playing the servers also gives an approximation and were power stands. While it is not necessarily the case that people play always the uberest, there is a tendency not to play the weakest either. So if a class is played way more than others (ehem ehem warlock), it tells you something about how it matches very well the needs of a majority of players.

There is also the issue of investment needed to make a class work. A PM can seem OP when it insta kills everything in LE raids, but the requirement for that is very high. So it is generally perceived as a form of balance.

It would be interesting to know how people rank builds, and whether they think they pull too much ahead or not. This is my personal ranking

A builds
Shiradi crit
Tree
Shuriken

Situationally A builds
Pale master / fvs insta killer
Sorc
Warlock
Wolf exploit
Monkcher

B+ builds
Kensei BF
Tempest
Mechanic
Bard - kensei split
Barb (although it is content dependent)

B builds
Fleshy kensei
Monk melee
Cleric
Acrobat
Bard
Assassin

Its not complete but I think gives an idea. Now the problem for me is when we start comparing across categories. For example, a fleshy kensei vs a shuriken. Its not a marginal difference, one is way more powerful by all metrics than the other. However, in principle both are legitimate builds.

In an ideal world, for me, A builds would be 10-20% better (however that is measured) than B+ builds, and that should be even more situational (so when playing content for which A has been optimized, 20%, otherwise, 10%). Ideally achievements would not be mostly by a few select builds, but rather depending on the quest / raid some would dominate. Similarly in group play there would be instances to shine for every build.

I don't think we have that right now. At all. But I'd be interested in knowing how others feel about this.

[Vanhooger]

I think you just gave terrible example. Warlocks don't require high DC to be successful, their SLAs are far more power than those heroic offensive spells and it can be cast for free. FvS/Sorc who heavily invested in DC/spell power can perform very good too. They just have different set of spells/approach, but do require more investment and massive SP consumption.

It's really not about who can or can't complete slave lord .. I wish more people knew that. Warlocks are extremely powerful class. I personally play it, and I never seen so much burst power. I kill things much faster than anyone else (since warlock release). But, I don't deny that warlocks will struggle in LE raids. DC casters are powerful where content is difficult, so FvS/Sorc/Wiz can do just fine. They might not have free spells, but they can CC or use epic spells which give them advantage.

I would be sad if they nerf warlocks. But I can tell that they are not perfectly balanced.

After 28 page thread people still fail on seeing this...well, they know it but they just defend it no matter what.

So Warlock are overperforming in 99.9% of content.
They're not the best at LE raid witch is 3 quest in the entire game, and they use it to defend Warlock. LOL

I can argue they're role in LE raid too to be honest.

TS is a joke.
HOX get a good tank and you done.
Shroud: Warlock can do more dps then any other caster, cos portal isn't immune to they're damage only part is pact. Normal caster can only use arcane pulse,ruin, greater ruin on portals so they will see they're mana bar drained pretty soon, while warlock keep blasting, no issue. Trash...Warlock can mass hold same as other caster and retain dps, or go instakill and you'll be god mode against trash.
Just tell me what is so bad of warlock in LE raid.

Still no comparsion with a fleshy melee video, just cos anyone knows it's not going to be easy as a kiting class. You can do it? Yes, good player can.
It will take same time, skill and resources: NO.
It's sad that even very skilled player here in the forum fail at acknowledge this.

Ps: Still waiting on Knight_slayer answer to my questions on post #445.

[Zoriaan]

After 28 page thread people still fail on seeing this...well, they know it but they just defend it no matter what.
So Warlock are overperforming in 99.9% of content.
They're not the best at LE raid witch is 3 quest in the entire game, and they use it to defend Warlock. LOL

As you well know Van, I agree that locks (the TS tree) needs to be toned down a bit, as the true power lies in all the stacking crit dmg...add this too an Ender set and yes it becomes a joke...you group with me often enough on Cannith and have your own lock to know even without Ender set if you take the TS capstone it trivialities all quests, but not raids. On this we agree on absolutely.

But, and I wont name names here, have you got to say about certain guild members of yours that over-perofrms in 100% of content on their furyshotters or sorcs? (Vi*****, La****, Be****, Fa***)?

We both know that they are among the top 1% of players of Cannith, and we both know that La***, Be*** and Vi*** will outperform 99.9% of all warlocks on cannith in 100% of all content on their maxxed furyshotters.

Same goes for Fa** on his sorc...blows 99.9% of locks out the water on cannith...

So why are we not starting angry mobs to blow them to smithereens and nerf them into orbit?

Again I agree locks in the hands of good players overperform in 99% of content, but other builds in the hands of good players over perform in 100% of content.

You know as well as I do that there are also locks on cannith that are so bad it is laughable...

This is not easy matter to please everyone...true balance is relative...

But yeah, I dont have the answer on how to balance DDO..i think that ship sailed in like 2009/2010 or something...but yeah these are just my feelings...

[Vanhooger]

As you well know Van, I agree that locks (the TS tree) needs to be toned down a bit, as the true power lies in all the stacking crit dmg...add this too an Ender set and yes it becomes a joke...you group with me often enough on Cannith and have your own lock to know even without Ender set if you take the TS capstone it trivialities all quests, but not raids. On this we agree on absolutely.

But, and I wont name names here, have you got to say about certain guild members of yours that over-perofrms in 100% of content on their furyshotters or sorcs? (Vi*****, La****, Be****, Fa***)?

We both know that they are among the top 1% of players of Cannith, and we both know that La***, Be*** and Vi*** will outperform 99.9% of all warlocks on cannith in 100% of all content on their maxxed furyshotters.

Same goes for Fa** on his sorc...blows 99.9% of locks out the water on cannith...

So why are we not starting angry mobs to blow them to smithereens and nerf them into orbit?

Again I agree locks in the hands of good players overperform in 99% of content, but other builds in the hands of good players over perform in 100% of content.

You know as well as I do that there are also locks on cannith that are so bad it is laughable...

This is not easy matter to please everyone...true balance is relative...

But yeah, I dont have the answer on how to balance DDO..i think that ship sailed in like 2009/2010 or something...but yeah these are just my feelings...

Man you know, we both want ddo to be hard as we are really bored atm.
Only two place in DDO where we need to keep one open eye is LE Hox and LE shroud...and they're still too easy.
Hope the reaper mode isn't going to be a fiasco.

[Atheok]

I think you just gave terrible example.

Was I? Did I even give an example. Oh you little you, how you are able to read through lines...

After 28 page thread people still fail on seeing this...well, they know it but they just defend it no matter what.

I think not all ppl fail to see it Van. Just you in this case. And for some reason you like to defend it.

But yeah, I dont have the answer on how to balance DDO..i think that ship sailed in like 2009/2010 or something...but yeah these are just my feelings...

Ta-daaa! A good ex that not all ppl fail to see it Van. Have a good day and keep fighting this!

[Vanhooger]

Was I? Did I even give an example. Oh you little you, how you are able to read through lines...



I think not all ppl fail to see it Van. Just you in this case. And for some reason you like to defend it.



Ta-daaa! A good ex that not all ppl fail to see it Van. Have a good day and keep fighting this!

Ok, Bez, it's just me! Cheers
So leave the ship sink and don't do anything about it! Right!

[Chai]

After 28 page thread people still fail on seeing this...well, they know it but they just defend it no matter what.

So Warlock are overperforming in 99.9% of content.
They're not the best at LE raid witch is 3 quest in the entire game, and they use it to defend Warlock. LOL

And many of the things warlocks were compared to are OP in 99.8% of the content, and because the latest content favors AOE DPSers, people would rather see a warlock nerf than see better content balance. This causes the DDO forumites to continually fall into the same trap. If the content doesn't diversify, the top end players will continue to use the same building strategy, and AOE DPS builds will still be the trash killing meta.

I can argue they're role in LE raid too to be honest.

TS is a joke.
HOX get a good tank and you done.
Shroud: Warlock can do more dps then any other caster, cos portal isn't immune to they're damage only part is pact. Normal caster can only use arcane pulse,ruin, greater ruin on portals so they will see they're mana bar drained pretty soon, while warlock keep blasting, no issue. Trash...Warlock can mass hold same as other caster and retain dps, or go instakill and you'll be god mode against trash.
Just tell me what is so bad of warlock in LE raid.

Still no comparsion with a fleshy melee video, just cos anyone knows it's not going to be easy as a kiting class. You can do it? Yes, good player can.
It will take same time, skill and resources: NO.
It's sad that even very skilled player here in the forum fail at acknowledge this.

Ps: Still waiting on Knight_slayer answer to my questions on post #445.

What people have failed to acknowledge, is nerfing classes doesn't cause balance, where creating content that favors different archetypes does. This is what LE raids show us. When the hallway has 8 mobs in it and they have mediocre HP totals, that favors AOE builds. When the hallway has 1-2 mobs with huge HP totals, that favors the single target DPS builds, and warlock falls back to being mediocre in that encounter.

[Kotharsjach]

I love all things arcane, so when warlock was first introduced I was pretty stoked. The class turned out to be a disappointment. Frankly the class is an abomination, and for me unplayable except as a snore fest. Why anyone would defend it's current power level and say that it's justified is beyond me, other than snore fest button mashing.

Whether or not the class is THE top performer in clearing an end game set of quests is a moot point. The way the class mechanics are built a warlock will do decent in every situation, in every quest, and always will.

Take a (caster class) give it inate HP, inate PRR, inate Temp HP, add in umd (with a bonus to a cha based class no less), make the resourcesless spell abilities no save and largely un-resistible with short cooldowns and large aoes, add in party buffs, add in powerful spells with unique mechanics like tentacle, hurl, and abundant step equivalent. What do you have..... not a class but a monster.

Compared in this thread to "Warlock" has been shurichucker, tree build, shiradi, fury-shotter........ but riddle me this. How well is a furyshotter build going to do outside the fury of the wild ED....... What about a shiradi build outside the shiradi ED....... how bout a tree build outside of primal avatar ED.......

Compared to a warlock in which ED again? Lets see was it divine crusader? Unyielding sentinal perhaps? Or was it Exalted Angel? Or maybe it was Shiradi? Oh....... that's right, I've seen warlocks face roll LE content in all of those EDs because the CLASS is so adaptable and tough at a base level.

My point being compare a base 20th lvl warlock to virtually any other base 20th lvl class.

If warlock is to be a beginner friendly class that's fine. As a jack of all trades class that can do virtually anything decently and not have to worry about breaking DR or monster resists and saves or much SP management it is very beginner friendly. Top tier aoe dmg? It should be middle of pack at best, or upper tier by investing in TS/SE.

As an aside balancing broken or over-powered ED mechanics is a separate issue than balancing classes but i'll be the first to admit how class features interact with said mechanics is part of the issue.

Need I mention warlocks in the ES line get full BAB, melee and ranged power, martial wep prof, no small boost to wep dmg in the form 3d6xspellpower light dmg, and med armor prof. Funny you almost never see a warlock with a wep in hand. There is a lot of potential built into the class that is never going to be explored if what's best is always going to be burst spam. Change those redonk huge aoe ES bursts into "Eldritch cleaves" wep in hand and aura active required, that's my vote for warlock balance

[Vanhooger]

I love all things arcane, so when warlock was first introduced I was pretty stoked. The class turned out to be a disappointment. Frankly the class is an abomination, and for me unplayable except as a snore fest. Why anyone would defend it's current power level and say that it's justified is beyond me, other than snore fest button mashing.

Whether or not the class is THE top performer in clearing an end game set of quests is a moot point. The way the class mechanics are built a warlock will do decent in every situation, in every quest, and always will.

Take a (caster class) give it inate HP, inate PRR, inate Temp HP, add in umd (with a bonus to a cha based class no less), make the resourcesless spell abilities no save and largely un-resistible with short cooldowns and large aoes, add in party buffs, add in powerful spells with unique mechanics like tentacle, hurl, and abundant step equivalent. What do you have..... not a class but a monster.

Compared in this thread to "Warlock" has been shurichucker, tree build, shiradi, fury-shotter........ but riddle me this. How well is a furyshotter build going to do outside the fury of the wild ED....... What about a shiradi build outside the shiradi ED....... how bout a tree build outside of primal avatar ED.......

Compared to a warlock in which ED again? Lets see was it divine crusader? Unyielding sentinal perhaps? Or was it Exalted Angel? Or maybe it was Shiradi? Oh....... that's right, I've seen warlocks face roll LE content in all of those EDs because the CLASS is so adaptable and tough at a base level.

My point being compare a base 20th lvl warlock to virtually any other base 20th lvl class.

If warlock is to be a beginner friendly class that's fine. As a jack of all trades class that can do virtually anything decently and not have to worry about breaking DR or monster resists and saves or much SP management it is very beginner friendly. Top tier aoe dmg? It should be middle of pack at best, or upper tier by investing in TS/SE.

As an aside balancing broken or over-powered ED mechanics is a separate issue than balancing classes but i'll be the first to admit how class features interact with said mechanics is part of the issue.

Need I mention warlocks in the ES line get full BAB, melee and ranged power, martial wep prof, no small boost to wep dmg in the form 3d6xspellpower light dmg, and med armor prof. Funny you almost never see a warlock with a wep in hand. There is a lot of potential built into the class that is never going to be explored if what's best is always going to be burst spam. Change those redonk huge aoe ES bursts into "Eldritch cleaves" wep in hand and aura active required, that's my vote for warlock balance

Whatever you bring to the table is never enough.

[nokowi]

It will take same time, skill and resources: NO.
It's sad that even very skilled player here in the forum fail at acknowledge this.

Equating player skill and best build with time to completion is the problem.

The natural result of doing this is that the most boring build (least challenging) with be considered the best build, as finding the build with the least amount of obstacles (for a given quest) results in the quickest run.

All builds should not take the same time, skill, and resources. That gives a given player ZERO options.

Rys said it well much earlier in the thread. Which build is the most fun for you to play?

[BigErkyKid]

Equating player skill and best build with time to completion is the problem.

The natural result of doing this is that the most boring build (least challenging) with be considered the best build, as finding the build with the least amount of obstacles (for a given quest) results in the quickest run.

All builds should not take the same time, skill, and resources. That gives a given player ZERO options.

Rys said it well much earlier in the thread. Which build is the most fun for you to play?

No one should be left with a lesser class just because the devs failed to balance the archetypes.

You might think that its ok for some archetypes to be second class; truth a majority of players said otherwise.

Go look at the pre balance pass poll, it is crystal clear.

Chances to challenge yourself with arbitrary restrictions are plenty; but when you need to gimp yourself, or accept to be lesser because you don't play a FOTM, that's when you know the game isn't properly balanced.

That's not to say perfect balance will exist, or that in certain content some builds will always excel over others. That's just natural, but it is by no means what we are seeing. The imbalance is much more brutal than that.

Some people don't give a crab about balance. Turns out they are in the minority, and I don't say this turbine does. Just because they don't come to the forums to take the abuse it doesn't make it less true.

[Six_Gun]

No one should be left with a lesser class just because the devs failed to balance the archetypes.

You might think that its ok for some archetypes to be second class; truth a majority of players said otherwise.

Go look at the pre balance pass poll, it is crystal clear.

Chances to challenge yourself with arbitrary restrictions are plenty; but when you need to gimp yourself, or accept to be lesser because you don't play a FOTM, that's when you know the game isn't properly balanced.

That's not to say perfect balance will exist, or that in certain content some builds will always excel over others. That's just natural, but it is by no means what we are seeing. The imbalance is much more brutal than that.

Some people don't give a crab about balance. Turns out they are in the minority, and I don't say this turbine does. Just because they don't come to the forums to take the abuse it doesn't make it less true.

If you want class balance so badly, go play NWO. This incessant whining is tiresome.