Warlock NERF Again

[BigErkyKid]

That's quite a bit of goal post moving from "post a screen shot or a vid and end it once and forever". (and yes, even though you didn't make the claim, if you defend the claimant, I will hold you to the claim as well).

So most classes being OP in 98% of all content but warlock being OP in 99% of all content justifies repeated nerf demands of warlock only, over a solid 7 months of time?

Or do you think there are far larger issues in DDO nerfing will not resolve? After 10 years of nerfing and no class v class balance achieved, how much more evidence do we need?

I am sorry, but a lot of the content has been already destroyed. How many quests are challenging on ANY decent built at cap?

I find that slavers, for a quest, is decently challenging when I play a barb, or a fleshy kensei solo. I would like the group version to be challenging too, but I can't tell if it is because every freaking time I play in a group it is filled with warlocks, shirred spammers, shuris, and other OP builds.

Warlock is just silly as it is. So yes, it needs to be toned down. No, it isn't the most DPS in the game. But it is the single biggest easy button there exists.

I don't need reaper if we all hold a level of power that is adequate for content.

That could have been achieved boosting the innate abilities of classes instead of giving MP/crit enhancer/crit spell damage/PRR until the game is trivialized. Boosting songs, boosting some of the active innate abilities of monk, boosting the benefits of paladin to the party with auras, all those are examples of things that would have made the game better. More balanced, less DPS but more synergies, etc.

Warlock needs to be toned down. They need to rethink the amount of magic damage out there, and they need to stop creating this silly sameness to all the classes.

[Justicesar]

Love the Warlock class....Nerf away but please....o please do not take away my Celestial Spirit hover.

I mean is there really any other reason to play a warlock?

Look at me....look at me....<<<Stewart(MadTV)

Ya all just be haten.

[Merlocke]

You repeat this a lot. It's fine to say you don't care about someone's feelings, although I'm not sure what good that does in civil society.

Many people argue that Warlock is OP because they feel it has affected their enjoyment of the game. And most of those people say it's not just Warlocks that are OP, and that those builds, and other aspects, need to be considered if and when Turbine moves towards a better balancing of the game.

Having feelings is not a weakness.

Not saying they are.

Feelings are not arguments

Try facts.

[mr420247]

Nerfhearders

Ruin our fun and hurt out feelings

And we're sick of it too

They don't care about balance

Bring on the Stamina bars before any more nerfs

[Chai]

I am sorry, but a lot of the content has been already destroyed. How many quests are challenging on ANY decent built at cap?

I find that slavers, for a quest, is decently challenging when I play a barb, or a fleshy kensei solo. I would like the group version to be challenging too, but I can't tell if it is because every freaking time I play in a group it is filled with warlocks, shirred spammers, shuris, and other OP builds.

Warlock is just silly as it is. So yes, it needs to be toned down. No, it isn't the most DPS in the game. But it is the single biggest easy button there exists.

I don't need reaper if we all hold a level of power that is adequate for content.

That could have been achieved boosting the innate abilities of classes instead of giving MP/crit enhancer/crit spell damage/PRR until the game is trivialized. Boosting songs, boosting some of the active innate abilities of monk, boosting the benefits of paladin to the party with auras, all those are examples of things that would have made the game better. More balanced, less DPS but more synergies, etc.

Warlock needs to be toned down. They need to rethink the amount of magic damage out there, and they need to stop creating this silly sameness to all the classes.

Dismissing content balance because it is out of line and has been for years has the same validity as dismissing character balance because it is equally out of line and has been for years.

If that spell power and magic damage only made warlocks OP in 20% of the content while they were still viable in the other 80% but not optimal, this would be a non issue. Then melee could be made OP in a different 20% of the content and viable in the other 80%, and we would have more actual build diversity than we have seen in the past 4 years or so. Then divines could be made OP against a completely different 20% of the content, and optimal in the other 80%...etc...

[lazlow]

Wait a moment!

IF we nerf locks, trees, throwers or really any builds due to the severity of overpoweredness what do you think will happen?

Oh! i know, all the vets of yester year will all come back and we'll attract all kinds of new players because we brought the fun ( balance ) back to ddo?

Cmon! Those days are over fella's, deal. Play the game like you like to play it meet some new friends along the way and just have fun, basically what

im saying if im saying anything at all is: Just do you and stop obsessing about better players or peeps with flash new rigs that are faster that yours.

Stop the nerfs enjoy the game we have while its available.

Laz

[Vanhooger]

No one cares about your feels.
Warlock DPS is not even top 5 in the meta.
Reals before feels.

Who are you lol.
Look like people care since there is 15 pages thread. Good bye.

[SuperNiCd]

The way I see it, the reason things feel out of balance between builds/classes or between players vs. content in many cases is that some, but not all things that you can do in the game have a "run cost" or "opportunity cost".

A wiz or a sorc can cast some really powerful spells. DPS, instakills, CC, etc. They can clear a room quickly. But (barring p2w store pots) they have to manage to the blue bar. If it runs out before the shrine, they become pretty gimped.

Bard songs, action boosts, some ED abilities, etc. have uses per rest. Other abilities have counters that must be charged up before use.

But then many things don't. A melee can swing a heavy great sword until its player runs out of stamina, and it never does any less damage, the rate of swings never slows. The toon never gets tired. A ranged toon - the same. That's not very realistic.

I think that's what's making warlock seem like an easy button. It's not the no-save DPS, or the temp HP, or high crit chance/multiplier, or the innate CC, or <fill in the blank>, or even that you can have them all in one single-class build. It's that they're all free and unlimited, other than the cooldown timers. The player never has to manage those in-game resources across the duration of the quest or give any thought to which ones to use when. At least that's been my experience running one up through heroic.

I think it would be a lot easier to "balance" (D&D is not a balanced game, right? But I can see where it's helpful to have some semblance of balance in an MMO that encourages grouping) if every action had some cost to it. Management of limited resources always needs to be a factor. Not just with warlock - with every build. If you want to blast through and dominate the kill count early on, super cool. But you're likely to have trouble later since you burnt through many of your resources doing it.

Just seems like it would be much easier to "balance" content if all meaningful actions consumed a limited resource. Then you have to make some decisions about whether to dodge a fight, kill things more slowly, let another party member take a turn, etc. Reaper mode probably wouldn't be needed.

But it needs to be done across the board. Not just to warlocks.

[Alaeth]

I can also see that newer players already experience a challenging environment on elite. You would have to ask them if DDO produces a cooperative environment where they can contribute something, or if they feel like they just don't matter. Maybe kicking some of us vets (often max XP/min players) to reaper will actually make the game more fun for them.

Since there was some speculation regarding the effects of all of this on new/casual players, I thought I would share some of my thoughts. I don't know if I completely qualify as a new player, but I have recently started playing again after 4+ years away, and my highest-level character at the time I originally stopped was only 12; regardless, I would say I fit the definition of casual, as I play DDO primarily as a break from other games rather than as my "main game." Either way, these are (obviously, I would hope) just my personal opinions and shouldn't be taken as anything more.

To put it simply, I think people concerned about new player experiences running quests with warlocks (or other overpowered builds) are missing the forest for the trees. There is nothing about running quests with veteran players--regardless of their builds--as a new player that is in any way enjoyable, and I feel that's due at least as much to player mindset as it is to game mechanics, though mechanics don't help.

When veteran players have run the same quests hundreds, if not thousands of times, there's a natural desire to rush through as quickly as possible, get it over with, and move on to newer things. This is completely understandable, but it doesn't make for a fun time when it's your first run through something. Add to that the fact that--again, regardless of build--these veteran players have multiple past lives, optimized equipment, and so on, and it becomes hard to feel like you're contributing when everyone else is running through at warp speed, leaving only ashes and corpses in their wake. Warlocks aren't noticeably different in this regard than wizards, barbarians, or seemingly any other class.

Personally, I'm grateful that warlocks are strong--though, at least at my level and for the content I'm doing, my warlock doesn't seem grossly out of line compared to my monk/rogue splash. Due to my above-mentioned experiences with grouping, I've been soloing everything (or at least everything that doesn't strictly require multiple people due to levers and such), since I like being able to take the quests at my own pace. As such, it's nice to have a fairly self-sufficient build option that doesn't lean heavily on past lives and pre-farmed equipment. I know warforged casters/paladins/etc. also fall into that category, but I dislike their racial aesthetic, and I've been enjoying having a ranged counterpart to my monk.

I don't really have an opinion on nerfing warlocks in the top-tier endgame, because I haven't played that content and thus don't have any basis for such an opinion. However, if such nerfs are deemed necessary, I would hope that they could be done in such a way that they wouldn't have a significant impact on my comparatively-puny heroic (and eventually epic) normal/hard gameplay. Once I started soloing rather than vainly trying to keep up with groups in quests, I started having much more fun with the game, and I wouldn't like to lose that option.

This got longer than I had planned, but hopefully it's at least mildly interesting to someone.

[Merlocke]

Look like people care since there is 15 pages thread. Good bye.

lol, 15 page thread is about the OP asking "if we can get an explanation on why Warlock was nerf'd and why do they keep giving reasons for players to continue to leave this game" . Good bye

[Vanhooger]

lol, 15 page thread is about the OP asking "if we can get an explanation on why Warlock was nerf'd and why do they keep giving reasons for players to continue to leave this game" . Good bye

We gave you so many reason.
Yes warlock is a reason why people is leaving game even in my guild.
But you don't care don't you ahaha
As well people don't care...talk for yourself next time, it's better.

[Vanhooger]

The way I see it, the reason things feel out of balance between builds/classes or between players vs. content in many cases is that some, but not all things that you can do in the game have a "run cost" or "opportunity cost".

A wiz or a sorc can cast some really powerful spells. DPS, instakills, CC, etc. They can clear a room quickly. But (barring p2w store pots) they have to manage to the blue bar. If it runs out before the shrine, they become pretty gimped.

Bard songs, action boosts, some ED abilities, etc. have uses per rest. Other abilities have counters that must be charged up before use.

But then many things don't. A melee can swing a heavy great sword until its player runs out of stamina, and it never does any less damage, the rate of swings never slows. The toon never gets tired. A ranged toon - the same. That's not very realistic.

I think that's what's making warlock seem like an easy button. It's not the no-save DPS, or the temp HP, or high crit chance/multiplier, or the innate CC, or <fill in the blank>, or even that you can have them all in one single-class build. It's that they're all free and unlimited, other than the cooldown timers. The player never has to manage those in-game resources across the duration of the quest or give any thought to which ones to use when. At least that's been my experience running one up through heroic.

I think it would be a lot easier to "balance" (D&D is not a balanced game, right? But I can see where it's helpful to have some semblance of balance in an MMO that encourages grouping) if every action had some cost to it. Management of limited resources always needs to be a factor. Not just with warlock - with every build. If you want to blast through and dominate the kill count early on, super cool. But you're likely to have trouble later since you burnt through many of your resources doing it.

Just seems like it would be much easier to "balance" content if all meaningful actions consumed a limited resource. Then you have to make some decisions about whether to dodge a fight, kill things more slowly, let another party member take a turn, etc. Reaper mode probably wouldn't be needed.

But it needs to be done across the board. Not just to warlocks.

Resource management?

What are you talking about?

They all master of resource management in the forum!

And if you can't just chug pot like there's no tomorrow.

Or learn how to play a caster, or you doing it wrong you know!

[Knight_slayer]

Fact is Wk is overperforming compared to other classes imho.

I keep hearing people say this on the forums but its not my experience, even when grouped with the best players on my server they do not outperform the other good players on their warlocks.

We just ran the entire slavers chain, guild run. All of us about the same level of skill and knowledge. In p3 the warlock and FVS had a kill count comp. I piked and the tempest just played normally. End of quest, 20 FVS in EA had 96 kills and 20 Warlock in Shiradi had 63 kills. FVS wings play a huge part in this as well as FVS is nuke and instakill spec (evo+necro). Also the FVS beat the lock in kills in the first two parts of the chain.

There are many videos on youtube of warlocks, over 150 videos when you type "ddo warlock" in to search. Is there a video you can find on youtube that shows a warlock outperforming other classes? If so could you link it so we can discuss the issue you are seeing with them?

[janave]

I keep hearing people say this on the forums but its not my experience, even when grouped with the best players on my server they do not outperform the other good players on their warlocks.

We just ran the entire slavers chain, guild run. All of us about the same level of skill and knowledge. In p3 the warlock and FVS had a kill count comp. I piked and the tempest just played normally. End of quest, 20 FVS in EA had 96 kills and 20 Warlock in Shiradi had 63 kills. FVS wings play a huge part in this as well as FVS is nuke and instakill spec (evo+necro). Also the FVS beat the lock in kills in the first two parts of the chain.

There are many videos on youtube of warlocks, over 150 videos when you type "ddo warlock" in to search. Is there a video you can find on youtube that shows a warlock outperforming other classes? If so could you link it so we can discuss the issue you are seeing with them?

LR the Warlock into an instakiller build, switch to EA and rerun . Let us know how it went.

I dont think a single test case does good justice to the base class. Especially when considering 1/3 ~ 1/4 the investment probably gets you 95% of the performance of the wlk. This is aside survivability and other perks.

[BigErkyKid]

I keep hearing people say this on the forums but its not my experience, even when grouped with the best players on my server they do not outperform the other good players on their warlocks.

We just ran the entire slavers chain, guild run. All of us about the same level of skill and knowledge. In p3 the warlock and FVS had a kill count comp. I piked and the tempest just played normally. End of quest, 20 FVS in EA had 96 kills and 20 Warlock in Shiradi had 63 kills. FVS wings play a huge part in this as well as FVS is nuke and instakill spec (evo+necro). Also the FVS beat the lock in kills in the first two parts of the chain.

There are many videos on youtube of warlocks, over 150 videos when you type "ddo warlock" in to search. Is there a video you can find on youtube that shows a warlock outperforming other classes? If so could you link it so we can discuss the issue you are seeing with them?

Now try pitching that warlock against an assassin, let's see how many kills the assassin gets. It is obvious that warlock is outperforming a bunch of classes, included some of the recently revamped ones. A warlock in there will do way better than a paladin, a tempest, a monk, a barbarian, an assassin, an acrobat, a fighter. Do we need to continue?

As the person under me said, there is also the issue of investment. It is hard to get nice DCs and spell pen on a FVS (not that it matters terribly in slavers, but still), the FVS is naturally less tanky than the warlock, subject to SP constraints (not that it matters in slavers, shrine around every corner).

The warlock has spamable decent damage free non targeted 360 AOE attacks. This on top of a survivable platform makes it an easy button, and a very good one. You don't need to worry terribly about DCs, although you can benefit from having decent ones.

In quests, warlock is the easiest lest gear intensive and safest build to play. It performs miles ahead of many classes. So exactly what proof do you want to see?

[Knight_slayer]

LR the Warlock into an instakiller build, switch to EA and rerun . Let us know how it went.

I dont think a single test case does good justice to the base class. Especially when considering 1/3 ~ 1/4 the investment probably gets you 95% of the performance of the wlk. This is aside survivability and other perks.

Its not a single test, its a single example. My experiences both playing Warlock and running with them are the same. We have EA Warlocks as well, only they don't do as well as the shiradi's overall but none of the warlock builds outperform our other builds! Quite the opposite, the warlocks are almost never dominating our runs.

I have a warlock (12war, 6wiz, 2fvs) that is built to have the highest ruin crit damage as well as crit chance possible. It outperforms other shiradi's at ruin but is weaker than other shiradi's in caster levels therefore chain missile does a lot less aoe damage. It also has less healing and immunity than other builds. Slower casting speed than others. etc. So overall it doesn't outperform other shiradi builds (classes). Still I am yet to see a video of a warlock outperforming anything.

What I think the problem is is how easy warlocks are to play and build (which isn't actually a problem at all imo) and the access to big aoe dps at lower levels (cone blast (which is very powerful for heroic)). A pure warlock is very hard to get wrong, even if you mess up stats it will still perform well enough not to be gimp, so players without a lot of knowledge can make a warlock and all of a sudden be playing a good build. Below is a version of what I believe leads to many of the warlock hate threads (based on speculation only):

Players x and y have been TRing together for a year. Player x started playing a year ago and y started 2 years ago. Y has always dominated x because y knows how to build and researches and plans his build before making it. X still has much to learn about building and therefore always makes sup par builds compared to y. One life together x rolls up a warlock and y a bard. Something happens differently this life, x is keeping up with y and even leading the kill count from time to time! Its the first time x has played a proper build and both players have about the same dexterity when it comes to using a keyboard and mouse. Y is furious, he has convinced himself that his dominating x was because he was more skilled as a player but really it was just his build knowledge that gave him the edge. Y is now convinced that warlock is super op and comes to the forums to complain about it.

[2pc2]

I keep hearing people say this on the forums but its not my experience, even when grouped with the best players on my server they do not outperform the other good players on their warlocks.

We just ran the entire slavers chain, guild run. All of us about the same level of skill and knowledge. In p3 the warlock and FVS had a kill count comp. I piked and the tempest just played normally. End of quest, 20 FVS in EA had 96 kills and 20 Warlock in Shiradi had 63 kills. FVS wings play a huge part in this as well as FVS is nuke and instakill spec (evo+necro). Also the FVS beat the lock in kills in the first two parts of the chain.

There are many videos on youtube of warlocks, over 150 videos when you type "ddo warlock" in to search. Is there a video you can find on youtube that shows a warlock outperforming other classes? If so could you link it so we can discuss the issue you are seeing with them?

Well... it has been posted several times in this same thread, but again here you go...



There are many vidoes on youtube of other classes. Is there a video you can find on youtube that shows another class/build perform at the same level of that warlock ? Is so could you link it so we can discuss the issues? We already have enough imaginary runs and completions that no one has seen in this thread, some hards facts or proof that other classes can perform as good as a warlock would be realy cool.

I will give you a hint, the only videos you will find are of an equaly (if not more) broken "I just shat my pants shiradi spamers" an a tree build which takes advantage of broken features and according to Sev it's not WAI and it's more likely going get fixed in the near future.

[slarden]

I keep hearing people say this on the forums but its not my experience, even when grouped with the best players on my server they do not outperform the other good players on their warlocks.

We just ran the entire slavers chain, guild run. All of us about the same level of skill and knowledge. In p3 the warlock and FVS had a kill count comp. I piked and the tempest just played normally. End of quest, 20 FVS in EA had 96 kills and 20 Warlock in Shiradi had 63 kills. FVS wings play a huge part in this as well as FVS is nuke and instakill spec (evo+necro). Also the FVS beat the lock in kills in the first two parts of the chain.

There are many videos on youtube of warlocks, over 150 videos when you type "ddo warlock" in to search. Is there a video you can find on youtube that shows a warlock outperforming other classes? If so could you link it so we can discuss the issue you are seeing with them?

I think people are underestimating the impact of wings on kill count. EA obviously gives everyone wings. Fey also gives wings on steroids.

There isn't all that many people on the nerf bandwagon, but Pavlov's law is in effect now as the devs responded to a thread like this with a nerf just a few weks back so why not try again. I finally figured out that 2 people are actually the same people - didn't realize that until a few recent threads. Now he created a brand new account dated 10/16 to do the same thing with a third account.

Now try pitching that warlock against an assassin, let's see how many kills the assassin gets. It is obvious that warlock is outperforming a bunch of classes, included some of the recently revamped ones. A warlock in there will do way better than a paladin, a tempest, a monk, a barbarian, an assassin, an acrobat, a fighter. Do we need to continue?

As I mentioned earlier this is true in slavers, but in LE tempest spine (comparing to a blaster). The assassin will likely win every time and I know that from actual experience. While a maxed hp/defense warlock can survive they only they will lead kill count is being the first person in and zerging. That is kind of how slavers works too - kill count leader isn't warlock but first aoe build that zergs.

I've seen many runs with no warlocks and I notice no difference in group power, completion time, fun.

As the person under me said, there is also the issue of investment. It is hard to get nice DCs and spell pen on a FVS (not that it matters terribly in slavers, but still), the FVS is naturally less tanky than the warlock, subject to SP constraints (not that it matters in slavers, shrine around every corner).

To me this one of the most ironic arguments esp since the same people are arguing warlocks make them feel useless. It's not healthy for this game to have huge entry barriers for new players. There are fewer builds a new player can pick up and be effective in LE content at end game as a first-lifer. Warlock is one of those and arguably easier to play than the other options, but even so they will have less hp, less prr, less mrr, less flexibility and in my experience they aren't leading the kill count and aren't dominating just because they are on as a warlock.

Also, I find it equally ironic that people are making the "no investment" argument while simultaneously using a video by one of the best players in the game as an example of how warlock is OP. His character was unkillable in LE slavers part 3 end fight, yes, because he made build decisions specifically for tanking, acquired past lifes and acquired gear. A very tiny percentage of those defenses came from warlock and yet warlock is what you and a few others want nerfed.

The warlock has spamable decent damage free non targeted 360 AOE attacks. This on top of a survivable platform makes it an easy button, and a very good one. You don't need to worry terribly about DCs, although you can benefit from having decent ones.

In quests, warlock is the easiest lest gear intensive and safest build to play. It performs miles ahead of many classes. So exactly what proof do you want to see?

I've seen enough warlocks die in the traps in part 1. The 20% hp bonus for the ES capstone is the biggest benefit, but as others pointed some classes get much more defense from their class trees.

This is a very simplified and innacurate viewpoint in my opinion. Warlock does damage at very close range and the enemies in the LE raids hit extremely hard. It's not easy to bring a warlock in those on LE and do well. You are at a big disadvantage in there without past lifes and top level gear. Twists are also important and again with alot more epic lifes you are bringing more power.

I am not sure why you aren't seeing other classes do well. The only class I haven't seen lighting it up in there is cleric and even they could do well if they go charisma-based in EA. Granted, the rogue and monks I've seen do well in there were repeater/thrower builds.

In terms of leading kill count I will agree casters tend to lead kill count in this chain followed by ranged and lastly followed by melee. I've seen thrower builds do it frequently. I've seen melees lead the kill count maybe 10% or so. Usually the kill count leader has wings - and the reason isn't dps - it's getting their first. Thrower builds have solid movement speed which is why they will often lead the kill count. Still, there are some amazing melee players on Sarlona and they bring stuff down really fast.

[2pc2]

Below is a version of what I believe leads to many of the warlock hate threads (based on speculation only):

Players x and y have been TRing together for a year. Player x started playing a year ago and y started 2 years ago. Y has always dominated x because y knows how to build and researches and plans his build before making it. X still has much to learn about building and therefore always makes sup par builds compared to y. One life together x rolls up a warlock and y a bard. Something happens differently this life, x is keeping up with y and even leading the kill count from time to time! Its the first time x has played a proper build and both players have about the same dexterity when it comes to using a keyboard and mouse. Y is furious, he has convinced himself that his dominating x was because he was more skilled as a player but really it was just his build knowledge that gave him the edge. Y is now convinced that warlock is super op and comes to the forums to complain about it.

That's an option and I'm sure it's true in some cases. But lemme give you another reason:

Players x and y have been TRing together for a year. Player x started playing a year ago and y started 2 years ago. Y has always dominated x because y has more dexterity when it comes to using a keyboard and mouse. X still has much to learn about playing and therefore always struggles compared to y. One life together x rolls up a warlock and y a bard. Something happens differently this life, x is keeping up with y and even leading the kill count from time to time! Its the first time x has played a broken OP build . X is wondering what happened, he thinkss himself that his dominating Y was because suddenly he is more skilled as a player but really it was just him using a broken build. Y is now convinced that warlock is super op, starts wondering were the game is heading and comes to the forums to expess there's is something wrong with certain builds.

[BigErkyKid]

As I mentioned earlier this is true in slavers, but in LE tempest spine (comparing to a blaster). The assassin will likely win every time and I know that from actual experience. While a maxed hp/defense warlock can survive they only they will lead kill count is being the first person in and zerging. That is kind of how slavers works too - kill count leader isn't warlock but first aoe build that zergs.

I already agreed with you. But end game now is slavers, not tempest. And this comparison holds for all the other quests and raids in the game, safe for Shroud, tempest, and Hox. So really, the one example is not very important.

I've seen many runs with no warlocks and I notice no difference in group power, completion time, fun.

There are other powerful builds out there. So? Warlock still outperforms a long list of classes.

To me this one of the most ironic arguments esp since the same people are arguing warlocks make them feel useless. It's not healthy for this game to have huge entry barriers for new players. There are fewer builds a new player can pick up and be effective in LE content at end game as a first-lifer. Warlock is one of those and arguably easier to play than the other options, but even so they will have less hp, less prr, less mrr, less flexibility and in my experience they aren't leading the kill count and aren't dominating just because they are on as a warlock.

New player on warlock < old player in a decent toon. Is that big news? That's hardly a fair comparison. These, instead, are:

Old player in warlock > Old player in fleshy kensei fighter / assassin / tempest / acrobat / monk / bard / paladin.
New player in warlock > New player in all of the above.

So comparing apples to apples gives you a measure of how much it is OP.

Also, I find it equally ironic that people are making the "no investment" argument while simultaneously using a video by one of the best players in the game as an example of how warlock is OP. His character was unkillable in LE slavers part 3 end fight, yes, because he made build decisions specifically for tanking, acquired past lifes and acquired gear. A very tiny percentage of those defenses came from warlock and yet warlock is what you and a few others want nerfed.

This is running in circles. Someone has already showed how a 0PLs lvl 20 warlock could solo EE quests. it is the class, it really isn't the player here. As has been said a million times, warlock is the best platform to have good defenses and good offense, way above a fighter, or a paladin, or any of those.

I've seen enough warlocks die in the traps in part 1. The 20% hp bonus for the ES capstone is the biggest benefit, but as others pointed some classes get much more defense from their class trees.

At the cost of offense.

This is a very simplified and innacurate viewpoint in my opinion. Warlock does damage at very close range and the enemies in the LE raids hit extremely hard. It's not easy to bring a warlock in those on LE and do well. You are at a big disadvantage in there without past lifes and top level gear. Twists are also important and again with alot more epic lifes you are bringing more power.

No one is talking about LE raids. You can have a warlock that survives LE raids too, same as any other class. We are talking about quest, or in other words, 98% of the game. The majority of people are running LE slavers, as they were running toee.

I am not sure why you aren't seeing other classes do well. The only class I haven't seen lighting it up in there is cleric and even they could do well if they go charisma-based in EA. Granted, the rogue and monks I've seen do well in there were repeater/thrower builds.

Other classes do well, this is a thread about warlocks.

In terms of leading kill count I will agree casters tend to lead kill count in this chain followed by ranged and lastly followed by melee. I've seen thrower builds do it frequently. I've seen melees lead the kill count maybe 10% or so. Usually the kill count leader has wings - and the reason isn't dps - it's getting their first. Thrower builds have solid movement speed which is why they will often lead the kill count. Still, there are some amazing melee players on Sarlona and they bring stuff down really fast.

Kill count is not the end of it all, but it is not just dominance of kill count. It is how safe it is, how easy it is, how much more efficient it is. We have had this discussion already.