Warlock NERF Again

[2pc2]

If you keep asking for proof without posting anything yourself, don't expect other to do so, since you lose credibility, even if you posted in other thread or in the past.

Post you're barb screenshot it take less then 2 min.

But we mortals are not worthy enough, we are only good to be asked for facts and proof and more proof, he's long past that according to his own words. Some diva complex I guess. Maybe it's a side effect of playing a warlock for so long, you end believing yourself to be god

Or maybe...just maybe, those imaginary vids and screen shots don't exist

[Vanhooger]

Q Why doesn't Slarden play his assassin currently?
A Because it take more effort to do the same thing, and at a much slower pace

Q Why doesn't Slarden play his assassin currently?
A Because he use the OP WK to streamroll latest content in the fastest way as possible, to get what he want/need, so he will defend WK no matter what it takes.

Let's be honest here...I do the same, but I'm not saying Warlock is fine.

Q Why is BigErky upset about running melee through Slavers
A Because is a grind in which all builds do the same thing, but some can do it faster

Isn't that reasonable? Why would I play a melee in slavers when I can do light-speed with WK?
And that is not just for slavers farm but 99.9 of quest.
Want to do a TR?
I wonder why many people I know they're doing TR template 10tr/10 Warlock, this people is crazy! What an auwful build!

Q Why do new/casual players complain about Warlocks running ahead and ruining there fun?
A Because the new/casual player isn't contributing anything to the quest

As an experienced player like you I don't know why you think it's just for new casual player.
Get in any quest with you're melee and run with an average Warlock.

[Forzah]

If you buy the argument that all builds do much the same thing (few roles), only the top % of builds will be viable in your preferred option.

Seems like a way to lose players.


Are you really arguing that devs can perfectly balance all builds across all the single and multiclass options players might choose?

They could have gone this route with higher level requirements for enhancement tiers (making balance easier to implement), but they chose not to.

Getting it perfectly right is impossible, but once they get it right for pure builds with their best epic destiny, it becomes much easier to get the multiclass builds right by moving abilities up and down as you suggest.

I think people are more willing to accept a nerf when all classes receive a similar treatment.

[Vint]

There are so many combinations of abilities that devs can't make a large number of builds good without having a few combinations that outperform. Trying to balance all DPS was going to fail no matter what choices devs made.

This was not really a problem in the past, because we all had roles we could choose to play to be useful (with the exception of two builds and one racial ability that were so much better than the rest).

+1

Instead of bickering back and forth, people should read this and understand that this is why we have so many problems.

I understand the arguments that a pure WL may be more powerful than a pure (whatever), but if anything they need to nerf is the builds that cherry pick 6 of this class, 6 of this class, and 8 of this class. (Or some other weird split so that players can take advantage of certain abilities.)

As we get new trees, races/classes, or other general changes, things will stay the same and players will keep demanding nerfs in all the wrong places.

[nokowi]

Q Why doesn't Slarden play his assassin currently?
A Because he use the OP WK to streamroll latest content in the fastest way as possible, to get what he want/need, so he need to defend it no matter what it takes.



Isn't that reasonable? Why would I play a melee in slavers when I can do light-speed with WK?
And that is not just for slavers farm but 99.9 of quest.
Want to do a TR?
I wonder why many people I know they're doing TR template 10tr/10 Warlock, this people is crazy! What an auwful build!



As an experienced player like you I don't know why you think it's just for new casual player.
Get in any quest with you're melee and run with an average Warlock.

None of your comments really contributed to anything I said.

Devs introduced Warlock with the idea that having an easy build will help newer players. What they don't understand is that vets will use the Warlock and run through content at least 3x better than new players, and new/casual players will still make the same complaints, while upsetting some of those that play anything besides Warlock.

There is no easy button that will help new players. Having them learn how to play the game is the only good solution. Designing a game that allows them to learn the game is much better than trying to trivialize content with easy buttons.


Is Warlock more powerful than all other builds? I have no idea, nor do I care. Buffing or nerfing Warlock won't really change the game in any meaningful way, as there are easy buttons all around.

I just want to play the toon I enjoy and contribute something unique and useful.

[nokowi]

Getting it perfectly right is impossible, but once they get it right for pure builds with their best epic destiny, it becomes much easier to get the multiclass builds right by moving abilities up and down as you suggest.

I think people are more willing to accept a nerf when all classes receive a similar treatment.

In the current game, they can never get multiclass right because there are always bugs that allow multiclass to gain extraordinary power.

I'm also not sure why you think balancing billions (probably way more) of possible multiclass builds is trivial.

[Vanhooger]

I just want to play the toon I enjoy and contribute something unique and useful.

So in the current meta you think you can achieve this?

Not solo, but in party with good warlock, sorc, wizard, shruricannon etc

[Vint]

So in the current meta you think you can achieve this?

Not solo, but in party with good warlock, sorc, wizard, shruricannon etc

You have to remember that 90% of this game is not LE. It is groups running heroics, running EH, roleplaying, playing within family, guilds, and real life friends.

In the 90% of the game (not seen on the forums), any build played by a competent player is an asset. Even the other 10% (LE content) any competent player can be an asset on about any toon.

[Forzah]

In the current game, they can never get multiclass right because there are always bugs that allow multiclass to gain extraordinary power.

I'm also not sure why you think balancing billions (probably way more) of possible multiclass builds is trivial.

Those bugs should be addressed then.

I said it is much easier, not that it is easy/trivial. It is still difficult, but not as difficult as introducing new mechanics in every existing and new quest.

[Vanhooger]

You have to remember that 90% of this game is not LE. It is groups running heroics, running EH, roleplaying, playing within family, guilds, and real life friends.

In the 90% of the game (not seen on the forums), any build played by a competent player is an asset. Even the other 10% (LE content) any competent player can be an asset on about any toon.

My arguments are more focused on LE since my guild is doing that mainly.

I'm not sure I was an asset last night running slavers on my monk, felt completely useless even if I was trying to do my best against our Wk's.

After 2 run, switched to the borelock and did what other were already doing click 2 button and run as fast as you can. Enjoy the 2016 benchmark

[BigErkyKid]

My arguments are more focused on LE since my guild is doing that mainly.

I'm not sure I was an asset last night running slavers on my monk, felt completely useless even if I was trying to do my best against our Wk's.

After 2 run, switched to the borelock and did what other were already doing click 2 button and run as fast as you can. Enjoy the 2016 benchmark

This. It is not LE, take any quest in the game. A decently geared warlock waltzes through it. If the mobs have fewer hit points, they just die faster, there is no issue there.

Its just not fun to play certain classes / builds when you are next to one of the OP builds. You are just tagging along, not really contributing to the quest much. In a party with 4 warlocks, what do you think a monk does?

[BigErkyKid]

Your ideas make sense here, but devs have already tried to do this and experience shows they can't balance the classes across all the builds that players choose when DPS+staying alive are the only requirements for a successful character.

Q Why doesn't Slarden play his assassin currently?
A Because it take more effort to do the same thing, and at a much slower pace

Q Why is BigErky upset about running melee through Slavers
A Because is a grind in which all builds do the same thing, but some can do it faster

Q Why hasn't Nokowi played in 3-4 months (6 months? not sure any more)
A Because the game is so trivial that my toon doesn't bring anything that is needed to the table. I can rack up a reasonable number of kills, but if I was piking in the corner the outcome would be no different.

This.

Remember when all the melee characters surrounded a boss and that was helpful? That's called a role. It makes you feel useful even if you have a smaller kill count, or need someone else to keep you alive. Devs, can you imagine any situation in reaper where any but the tank could fill this role? I don't see it happening in the current Amp-Up-The-DPS reaper mob design.

And so much this. We don't need to have pole position in the kill count, we want to feel we contribute. I am happy playing a less DPS toon if I feel I am doing something needed and good for the party. The problem is that the vast majority of support is trash. And some builds are so much ahead of the others in all relevant areas that it sucks.

[Vanhooger]

In a party with 4 warlocks, what do you think a monk does?

Pike.

[Vint]

This. It is not LE, take any quest in the game. A decently geared warlock waltzes through it. If the mobs have fewer hit points, they just die faster, there is no issue there.

Its just not fun to play certain classes / builds when you are next to one of the OP builds. You are just tagging along, not really contributing to the quest much. In a party with 4 warlocks, what do you think a monk does?

Garbage.

I stay in heroics and recently I went 1-20 on a bard and did a sorc life. I soloed often, but when I did pug I was running circles around most people in those parties.

You are stuck on thinking that the game revolves around EVERYONE running LE slavers.

I also disagree with well geared. The biggest part of having a great toon is:
knowledgeable player>Gear

[aGarde]

The forums answer this question: Yes.

you might, I don't always want to play a clicky-click-click-click toon. No one forces one to play a warlock or a non-clicky toon. IMO, wanting to have everyone play *YOUR* way makes that person an *******, and I hope turbine learns to tune those types out.

[BigErkyKid]

The biggest part of having a great toon is:
knowledgeable player>Gear

You say it yourself:

Garbage.

It is simply not true. Take two players with the same skill, one with an assassin and the other with a warlock. Bring them to slavers or toee. Same level of gear.

Who do you think will do better?

Now take them to any of the quests in the last 2-3 updates. Again who does better?

Player skill matters, but sometimes the differences between the power of builds are just too big to compensate with skill.

Maybe you are playing heroic and I don't honestly care about that. Have fun! We are talking about epic play here, not necessarily slavers, but slavers is a good example of what is end game right now.

[Vint]

7Maybe you are playing heroic and I don't honestly care about that. Have fun! We are talking about epic play here, not necessarily slavers, but slavers is a good example of what is end game right now.

I cant argue that the WL would probably outperform the assassin. But I also think a shuriken build/tree build and a few others are up there as well if we are going to talk about balance.

Don't worry, I will have fun playing in heroics and I am competent enough to solo to 20 on any build. I'll bow out of this thread now and let you continue your crusade on nerfing a build because of 10% of content.

[slarden]

Q Why doesn't Slarden play his assassin currently?
A Because he use the OP WK to streamroll latest content in the fastest way as possible, to get what he want/need, so he will defend WK no matter what it takes.

I feel uniquely qualified to answer why I don't play my assassin currently and it's not for the reasons that were listed.

Assassin doesn't really have a good place at end game right now. For the LE raids deception, tactics and aggro management can't effectively stop the one-shotting. Since I mostly pug LE raids it's usually a few of us carrying the raid and at least 5-6 people that shouldn't even be there. Sometimes we have a really strong group, but that is a more typical situation.

For end game quests sneak speed is too slow to keep up with parties even with the boosts sev gave us. This is true whether or not warlocks are in the party. i've seen several groups without warlocks and they tear through content at the same pace. There are so many of those pressure plates in the first quest that if I disable those for people that need xp I won't be able to finish and loot all chests before the first chest is looted in part 2. The devs will need to increase mob hp to slow down parties or include more bosses - that is the only way.

I will still play assassin on alts to get past lifes as it's fun to play and the trap xp bonus is quite nice.

So I choose not to whine about it and instead adjust as I play many builds and I've had times where casters flat-out didn't work (dc requirement unobtainable, sp pool not sufficient, etc. - eGh broke alot of casters for example) and 5 of my main 6 were melees. It's never really been the other way around where melees didnt work at all - now the complaints are getting outkilled by a caster with alot of past lifes, great gear etc. which is less important whine than a build not working period.

To be honest the hp/prr requirements in the LE raids is the bigger issue for me mainly due to all the unavoidable aoe type damage. It used to be an assassin managing aggro properly didn't take much damage (when level cap was 20 in epic for example). When bosses cleave or aoe attack that hardly matters. Evasion is a very minor benefit in the current end game. Trapping is unimportant as people are expected to run characters that can run through traps at le.

[slarden]

Why does nobody talk about difficulty of content? Balance is a multi-faceted concept. It is not limited to comparing the power of characters to each other. Balance also means that the power of a character and the difficulty of content are in line.

I've watched the movie and saw how warlock seemingly effortlessly destroys the newest LE content. In my opinion, it should be nerfed further so that that isn't possible. Similarly, all other classes (and epic destinies) that are too good compared to the content need a nerf. This is in my opinion the only sane way to get an engaging and balanced game.

Luckily reaper mode addresses some of these errors.

I don't disagree, but you can't fix that problem by nerfing warlock since that isnt' where the high defenses come from. There are some things that can be done like punishing charisma-dumping and halting the aura while blocking. Maybe the temp hp can be nerfed further or based on the min of con/cha instead of con. But the problem is gear, ed and past lifes more than enhancement trees and class abilities.

You get a 20% hp bonus on top of con and other hp/defense bonsues in Unyielding sentinel. A 5 pieces LGS set gives a 36% hp bonus. You get 36 PRR / 18MRR/ and maybe 120 or so hp from past lifes. You get 45 PRR/15MR from shield fields and skyvault.

His offense is below average, but the result is good because there is no risk so dps is always 100% of a smaller number. The issue isn't really the offense or warlock tree, it's the fact that builds can get enough hp, prr and mrr that they effectively eliminate risk. Can't a vanguard do effectively the same thing? I mean I've seen enough on Sarlona that seem unkillable.

I've always thought US 20% hp bonus should result in spellpower penalty except positive, negative, repair which are used for healing and very little offense uses those.

[slarden]

Talk about understatement. You have problems surviving ONE boss in that end fight lol.

One third of characters are borelocks. Almost always the same stupid three button build.
Assassins ? What five people on the server you can meet in EE or LE ?

Nokowi can do it. I do fine on EE/LE outside a few specific boss fights. I can likely mitigate that with gear but why grind for a piece set for a few bosses when i can do the same thing with a build that kills from range or a melee that is more hardy.

It's not that assassin can't handle it - it's not worth it to build my gear around a few boss fights in LE raids.

the slowness problem of the assassin playstyle doesn't bother me. I don't mind just looting if they party is going faster. That has little to do with warlock - everyone in there is zerging. Only way it can be stopped is by increasing hp. And btw increasing mob hp is an indirect nerf to blasting builds and probably a better answer than tweaking a class tree when 90% of the power doesn't come from it.