Warlock NERF Again

[BigErkyKid]

Well that could be an option, though it's hard to believe that someone fears a nerf when other builds (tree,warlock,shiradi) already can solo it easy. Another option is that no one did it because it's pointless to run it on such builds and use a lot of time and resources when you can use easy button builds or be a bladeforged and complete it with half the time and half the troubles.That excuse could be used by everyone, even slarden, I personaly won't believe it if I don't see it. As someone said there's a lot of imaginary uberness in here

The vast majority of my guildies are running it in warlocks. We are not a super LE raid based guild. We have spectrum of players, but generally we are not the once a week LE shroud crowd.

Now my guildies have soon recognized that if this is your play style - content, getting some ePLs, grinding some quests, raids most LH, then absolutely nothing beats warlock. You can feel very powerful and content goes down without much thinking.

I understand this, but as someone who HATES grinding (definition: going through unchallenging content 100 times for gear and PLs), I have the hardest time with this mentality and the builds used. I would really love for content to be more challenging, and I feel it would be if they didn't keep buffing classes so much. However, given that we do have power classes and classes that are actually having healthy challenge, the disparity turns ugly.


So when I run slavers with people in my guild I feel I am piking. Keeping blitz is super hard with warlocks running ahead with wings and blasting to heal. I can burst bosses, but ruin and generally DPS rotations don't make me very necessary.

I am sure my guildies can solo no problem the whole chain. I struggle; I struggled on my barb, on my fleshy kensei, and a bit less but I still suffered in my fleshy ranger. The end fight needed strategy and I couldn't do it on my barb.

So yeah, I did get through it with my flavor ranger on LE and posted here. But I wouldn't do it again. It felt utterly pointless, since I KNOW that I could be doing it much faster and effectively on a power build. Since the game is NOT beating slavers once, but 40-60 times at least to craft a set, all my effort was wasted. If I had rolled a warlock by now I would have soloed it an my convenience a whole bunch of times. Instead of having a single crafted slavers item (I have a bunch of named, but just 1 tier 3 crafted), I would have several.

I could also give up on the grind, but if I don't grind a bit and keep up to date, on top of not playing the easy button builds, then I am absolutely useless to my party. I am restricted to either soloing or watching others do the work.

So after I finished the quest on LE and took the screen shot, I uninstalled once again DDO. It felt pointless. I am sure I will play again in the future (perhaps with the expansion, or if they release an interesting new quest / raid), but now I take longer breaks than I did in the past.

[Chai]

Yes but, you know how much does it cost a chain Lightning empowered, maximized & intesify as well if you want even with all the discounted metamagic? THose extra 3k sp wont last long. You also need to make sure you got a very high evo dc with the few feat you get, or you won't deal any damage at all.

As well sorc sla, take air savant that I was running...I don't know how you can even compare them.

t5 Scholar, t3, t5 ES are:

- free
- AoE
- no save
- There's nearly no mob in game who can resist light damage.
- 5sec cooldown for ES
- 6sec cooldown for Scholar one.
- Need to be in melee range (not much of a problem with all temp hp), medium armor basically free.

Now, air savant SLA:

Shoking garsp:

- Single target
- 2 sp
- 4 sec cooldown
- No save
- Range touch
- Electric damage, so can be ignored by many mobs or heavy reduction.

Electirc loop:

- AoE
- Reflex save take half damage, Will save negates Dazed
- Range,Standard for initial hit, Slightly shorter for affected AOE
- 4 sp
- Electric damage, so can be ignored by many mobs or heavy reduction.
- 5 sec cooldown

Lighting bolt:

- Single target, well could be multiple if you perfectly align mob
- 50% chance double proc
- Range, double
- Reflex save takes half damage (2 saves if it forks)
- Electric damage, so can be ignored by many mobs or heavy reduction.
- 6 sec cooldown
- 6 SP
- Lots of time you even miss target cos the target is moving

Are you seriously comparing Sorc SLA with WK burst? C'mon.

Greater shout, horn of thunder? lol

Every party I join there is from 2 to 4 warlock.

If there is only 2 player playing pure sorc at cap in Cannith (me and another guild mate) there is a reason I guess. Well, now it's just one since I tr'd few days ago to try out monk.

Why dont we add 6sp x burst, and 4 spell point per blast and see how you doing.

Forgot to say, since you don't even want to post a screenshot of you're already done Slavers part 3 on a melee, cos you don't need to prove anything as people know you, I don't have to prove anything to you either.

3k SP?

When is the last time you played a sorc at cap? They have almost double SP on a well built endgame sorc nowdays. I can see why you are being over-run on your sorc by warlocks. 3k SP means likely mediocre gear at best, stat not even close to max, and very few PLs, if any. Sorcs are higher DPS than warlock n most situations save for the one situation where the 'lock is surrounded by mobs, but even then claiming they can blast with impunity and never have to recover is incorrect.

I think you guys need to start disclosing the real reasons why you want warlock nerfed - lack of need of PLs and lack of need of planning around a spell point pool, and the amount of survivability they get for smaller effort put in. This entire claim that warlock is top DPS is incorrect. Warlock isn't even top 5 DPS in the current meta.

[slarden]

We were talking about Sorc and you came out with horn of thunder I don't see the connection.
Anything is possible if you got the skill, even doing dps with a Bard but what's the point on discussing it here, we talk about a class that is over performing over others.
You change the subject of the discussion, or whatever it takes

Wasn't changing the subject. I think sorc is in a good place as are wizard and warlock. I was talking specifically about heroic spells and I listed 2 for a sorc and 2 for a bard.

I mentioned horn of thunder and greater shout specifically because I use those on my bard and they do more damage than spirit blast and eld burst. I was simply giving heroic spell examples for an air savant and a bard. I think between warlock, sorc and bard - bard is the most challenging to play due to the real sp challenges. Sorc has a huge sp pool and some sp regen options, but the effectiveness of the sp regen is really dependent on playstyle so it's not useful for everyone. I don't have sp problems with sorc or warlock - both will run out if I don't manage my sp pool properly, but both will do fine if I do.

just cos you don't want to say WK is over performing even if you know it yourself.

What do you mean? All of my builds are overperforming including both my warlock builds. Only thing is while testing out builds I tend to play squishier versions while tinkering with builds to help me optimize playstyle. Other than testing I don't want to play underperforming or average performing builds. Once I have a good feel for the builds key vulnerabilities I tighten it up for LE raids.

The thing is I don't ever remember a time when there was so many different builds that were really good at cap at the same time. It used to be just 1 or 2 really good builds now it's over 10.

As soon as I determine a build is not optimal for the current end game content I tr to something else as I did with my assassin even though I love playing assassins. The time came to take a break from it because it is not optimal for current end game content even though it's not terrible.

I am a bit caster-heavy at the moment because I am testing/optimizing a few things across different builds.

[Iriale]

I mentioned greater shout and horn of thunder because they do more damage than spirit blast and eld burst - that is just simple math.

lol all you want but long before warlocks existed randslar was soloing all ee content on a bard . The build is in the bard forum called exalted bard. SP management is key on a bard but I managed and that is why I splashed fvs at times. He wasn't so useful in EE Defiler of the Just but other than that was really good in all end game content long before warlock as a blaster. My blasting warlock build was directly based on my exalted bard build but replacing a few bard spells with the 2 ES SLAs. Now bard is better from a DC/CC perspective so it has some advantages and also some disadvantages compared to a warlock esp on defenses and sp management. It's not an easy button build compared to warlock, but is still easyish once built and geared.

Bard does really well in a party but soloing requires a bit more optimization on spell selection, etc. due to sp limits of a bard.

Again at cap casters are going to use a rotation with higher dps epic spells and the heroic spells are often very supplemental to total damage (excluding shiradi mm spammer of course where heroic spells are bread and butter) all I was showing is that the innate warlock abilities are in the ballpark of other heroic spells and I simply listed 2 available to an air savant and 2 to a bard, but I realize a sorc won't take 2 "master of feats".

I don't usually bother with heighten on my chain lightning. Chain Lightning is 42 spell points on my 30 sorc before 10% discount from legendary pansophic circlet.

If we are comparing specifically ES warlock in US/EA to air savant in draconic
- Sorc has base 1750 spell points at 20 before modifiers. Warlock has 525.
- Sorc gets double sp bonus on items
- 30% chance of 3 temp spell points from electric and sonic including the low cost slas. 10% chance to gain 15 temp spell points from electric with draconic hunger. the 2 procs average to about 2.5 spell points gained per cast including on the 2/4/6 spell point slas and lightning bolt with master of air.

So I get the whole "it's free" thing with the warlock slas but they also have a much smaller sp pool to begin with. As a sorc you can afford the sp cost and that is just a non-sla spell we are talking about. Electric loop and lightning bolt are practically free and with proper timing you can use chain lightning when the temp sp procs. Warlocks don't have many dps spells in their spellbook so they have a much smaller arsenal.



Indeed nor do I care. At least you are posting with your real account and not afraid to name your real characters which I respect unlike people with no life coming in here anonymously with a fake account created 10/2016 to troll people.

Well, slarden, too is your decision don’t take consume, stricken and the soul eater stuff. My warlock does a wonderful damage to bosses with the dots (free spell point dots, a lot of better in dps side than arcane spells) and then with epics spells after hit them with vulnerability, mrr reduction, etc. Trash is easy with instankills or hold mass/tentacles + dps (energy burst or divine wrath for fast killing or a little more slow with the free eldritch blast) Anyways, I don’t see a difference in fast killings between my CC wizzie and my CC warlock, but my warlock has advantage in less spell point usage and easier CC mobs immunes to enchantment with tentacles (yes, I use web/hold undead, but these spells are not so efficient as tentacles; hold undead needs more duration) Both builds have a good DC for dancing mobs. My wizzie has advantage CC’ing high SR mobs, but not so much of these in today game, and my warlock has web too.

You can not think that other classes have all the stuff of the 3 trees (as the heavy armor stuff in a CC wizzie; not room for spell dps, EK stuff and pale master stuff!) and don’t apply this to warlock too. If your warlock has ES/TS stuff is good, but is your decision doesn’t take the SE stuff that is wonderful for single target dps.

My point is that my warlock is using his blue bar but not so much as my wizard, they do similar dps to bosses (but my wizzie has a short window before he has been drained of spell points—enough for many bosses, but not for all, and this only if has been careful in his spell point managent before the boss. I am usually careful, although some champions can be an unexpected drain of spell points) and they have similar survival. Yes, I am more satisfied with my wizzie than 9 months before when I was frustrated, but I think that my warlock is better yet than my wizzie. Not an abysmal difference as 9 months ago, however.

Now my caster druid is in a sorc life (yes, I was bored) and I find that the spell point usage with sorc is far big than with my warlock. Sorc SLAs are too limited in range and damage vs the warlock stuff (sorc SLAs DON’T do more damage than my warlock eldritch burst, in fact the warlock does more dps) In both classes the big dps to bosses or trash become from epic spells. But I find easier to get CC working spells with warlock than sorc (better hold DC, tentacles is better than evoc CC spells and works in undead) and for this energy burst does more dps to trash in my warlock than in my sorc (not true if the sorc get holded/stunned the mobs, however). I find that energy vortex has a cooldown too long and dragon breath few uses for rest, while divine wrath is faster and heals too. Not fault of warlock of course (exalted angel was updated but draconic not) And I spend more spell points in trash with my sorc than in my warlock, so the big spell point pool is not a big advantage for sorc. And the energy resistance/immunity is a big thing too if you are comparing both classes.

I don’t say that warlock is OP in epics, slarden (although I think that is stupidity OP in heroics, but that is other topic), only say that the warlock can have wonderful dps against bosses (yes, then you have to renounce to TS or ES stuff, but in my sorc or wizard I have to renounce too to armor stuff) Too I say that warlocks have an advantage over the other caster classes today in epics. I think that if the devs do well the caster pass, all magic classes and warlock can be finally balanced in epics in the future, but now warlock has an advantage. You can not negate this- the advantage exists although the other classes are in better position than 9 months ago (then was so frustrating!) I think that the warlock is in line with other improved classes, however (although, sadly, not all builds in those classes are good, my rogue is better in mechanic than in acrobat, for example--- although she is now an acrobat, I like so much the qstaff animations, but this other topic too)

Too, caster pass doesn’t need big numbers, need polish things. A lot of trees have enhancements too expensive and metamagic reduction need to be better. Heroic spells need scale better in epics and the spell lists need a review (so many spells useless or overlooked, as earthquake for fvs/cleric or tentacles for sorc/wiz or prismatic spray for bard/sorc/wiz/warlock) And a update for arcane and primal EDs, too. Not big, OP changes, only an improvement.

Sorry for my bad English, slarden. I hope that is not too bad to read.

[Eth]

3k SP?

When is the last time you played a sorc at cap? They have almost double SP on a well built endgame sorc nowdays. I can see why you are being over-run on your sorc by warlocks. 3k SP means likely mediocre gear at best, stat not even close to max, and very few PLs, if any. Sorcs are higher DPS than warlock n most situations save for the one situation where the 'lock is surrounded by mobs, but even then claiming they can blast with impunity and never have to recover is incorrect.

I think you guys need to start disclosing the real reasons why you want warlock nerfed - lack of need of PLs and lack of need of planning around a spell point pool, and the amount of survivability they get for smaller effort put in. This entire claim that warlock is top DPS is incorrect. Warlock isn't even top 5 DPS in the current meta.

He said 3k extra, not 3k.
Fully geared sorcs at cap have anywhere between 6k to 7.4k SP depending on several choices (epic feat choices that grant extra SP, 10% from EA, (L)GS items, amount of dominion pieces etc.).

[Chai]

He said 3k extra, not 3k.
Fully geared sorcs at cap have anywhere between 6k to 7.4k SP depending on several choices (epic feat choices that grant extra SP, 10% from EA, (L)GS items, amount of dominion pieces etc.).

And claiming it wont last long?

Are we on about warlocks not having to loosely plan shrines while other casters do yet? While that would still be an absurd case for a nerf, it would be a step up from the false claim that warlock is top of the DPS meta.

[Eth]

And claiming it wont last long?

Are we on about warlocks not having to loosely plan shrines while other casters do yet? While that would still be an absurd case for a nerf, it would be a step up from the false claim that warlock is top of the DPS meta.

I didn't make that claim.
Except for Elite Legendary Shroud part 1 I have yet to run out of SP on my sorc. In slavers I skip half the shrines. No idea.

DC casters are in a good spot right now, even without having a pass.

I can't and won't comment on warlocks, since I never played one, except for the very first round on lamma (where they were pretty bad).

[Iriale]

I didn't make that claim.
Except for Elite Legendary Shroud part 1 I have yet to run out of SP on my sorc. In slavers I skip half the shrines. No idea.

DC casters are in a good spot right now, even without having a pass.

I can't and won't comment on warlocks, since I never played one, except for the very first round on lamma (where they were pretty bad).

Well, except for whiners, I think the point is not that casters are useless now, if not that warlocks are easier and better now. The former is inevitable; the second is not a big difference in epics if the caster is full geared and with a few PLs. I think that many people doesn’t have top gear and is jealous with the easy entrance in epics of warlocks (casters are in good point, but need a lot more of work than a warlock, that is more forgiving in gear and PLs)

But they should think too that casters have not had their pass too. I hope that the pass will not foused in give big numbers that are not needed and focus in polish things (so maaaany useless spells!) and improve some too expensive things (as metamagic reduction, too many APs for too few reduction…)

[Eth]

But they should think too that casters have not had their pass too. I hope that the pass will not foused in give big numbers that are not needed and focus in polish things (so maaaany useless spells!) and improve some too expensive things (as metamagic reduction, too many APs for too few reduction…)

The caster pass should only polish some useless and/or overpriced enhancements and mainly focus on - you already nailed it - the heroic spellbook. Other than it doesn't need much change.
The only thing they should ever worry about when making new content is if monster saves are in line with attainable DCs.

[Vanhooger]

I didn't make that claim.
Except for Elite Legendary Shroud part 1 I have yet to run out of SP on my sorc. In slavers I skip half the shrines. No idea.

DC casters are in a good spot right now, even without having a pass.

I can't and won't comment on warlocks, since I never played one, except for the very first round on lamma (where they were pretty bad).

The discussion wasn't that sorc is bad, it's not. why would I play it last 3 month?
Fact is Wk is overperforming compared to other classes imho.

[Vanhooger]

YOU are talking about sorc. Most of the rest want to use 2016 benchmarks, not benchmarks from 2012.

Check post #88. I didn't start with sorc I just answered.

2016 benchmarks? O right take any class, aggro everything till red alert, click 2 button done. Nice benchmarks
Only exception LE raids.

[Iriale]

The caster pass should only polish some useless and/or overpriced enhancements and mainly focus on - you already nailed it - the heroic spellbook. Other than it doesn't need much change.
The only thing they should ever worry about when making new content is if monster saves are in line with attainable DCs.

yes, this is I said. I agree. But the heroic spellbook is a big difference. Think that the spells are the toys of casters and a lot scale bad in epics or are useless. My druid for example... it's so expensive dps with heroic spells! Spells scale very bad. Caster druid is OP in heroics and in epics is a biiiig down. If we get a working spellbook then there will not be reasons for envy warlocks. EDs need a little of rework too.

The bad - there is not date for the pass, and, of course, this don't help to stop the whining.

[Vanhooger]

3k SP?

When is the last time you played a sorc at cap? They have almost double SP on a well built endgame sorc nowdays. I can see why you are being over-run on your sorc by warlocks. 3k SP means likely mediocre gear at best, stat not even close to max, and very few PLs, if any. Sorcs are higher DPS than warlock n most situations save for the one situation where the 'lock is surrounded by mobs, but even then claiming they can blast with impunity and never have to recover is incorrect.

I think you guys need to start disclosing the real reasons why you want warlock nerfed - lack of need of PLs and lack of need of planning around a spell point pool, and the amount of survivability they get for smaller effort put in. This entire claim that warlock is top DPS is incorrect. Warlock isn't even top 5 DPS in the current meta.

I think we play a different game. I gave you some reason you won't accept it, so peace

[Chai]

I think we play a different game

We certainly do. DDO is the game where warlocks are B level DPS, not A level as repeatedly claimed by those demanding nerfs.

There is a case for a nerf of minimal effort survivability, although it would only serve to remove unique game mechanics and keep DDO more homogenized.

There is no case for nerfing DPS based on the false claim that warlock is max DPS in the current meta. If you truly believe that its out bursting a sorc, you arent playing a sorc correctly, or play with bad sorcs. If the claim is it has less opportunity cost, then you need to be specific as to which quests sorcs will run out of mana in before they can shrine. Which quests arent fair to sorcs? If you say all, I will call shenanigans as this again is more forum hyperbole intended to gain the desired goal without having to point out the real reason.

Moreover, anyone aggregating all this "nerf it because it ruins my fun" feedback should really just look into each persons account who is providing said feedback, and weigh the feedback based on what they play, and have played in the past 8 months or so. Example: If I dont see a warlock and a sorc with reasonable PLs and end game gear on the account of those claiming warlock is more DPS than a sorc, that feedback gets assigned low value at best. "Ruining my fun" is far too subjective of a reason to nerf, and "warlock is top DPS" is simply wrong, and the constant repetition of it after multiple threads where this is proven incorrect only subtracts from the cred of those continually making this claim.

Warlock:
Easier to play, yes
Easier entry into LE content. yes
Less time consumption to get viable for endgame, yes
Less effort needed to make character survivable, yes
MAX DPS in current meta, no - not even in the top 5.

The irony here is there is a case for a warlock nerf. The bandwagon simply asserts incorrect reasons, and repeats them often.

I think we play a different game. I gave you some reason you won't accept it, so peace

You havent answered the last 4 questions I asked.

Likely because there is no answer without immediately having multiple logical contradictions pointed out in the "nerf warlock because it ruins my fun" position.

[Mr_Helmet]

This movie says enough. Warlock survivability needs to be toned down much more. You can just stand still, press heal every few seconds, and wait for everything to die. This is not a sane development choice for any game.

Nerf 'em all - too bad Metalica don't play this game.

[Vanhooger]

We certainly do. DDO is the game where warlocks are B level DPS, not A level as repeatedly claimed by those demanding nerfs.

There is a case for a nerf of minimal effort survivability, although it would only serve to remove unique game mechanics and keep DDO more homogenized.

There is no case for nerfing DPS based on the false claim that warlock is max DPS in the current meta. If you truly believe that its out bursting a sorc, you arent playing a sorc correctly, or play with bad sorcs. If the claim is it has less opportunity cost, then you need to be specific as to which quests sorcs will run out of mana in before they can shrine. Which quests arent fair to sorcs? If you say all, I will call shenanigans as this again is more forum hyperbole intended to gain the desired goal without having to point out the real reason.

Moreover, anyone aggregating all this "nerf it because it ruins my fun" feedback should really just look into each persons account who is providing said feedback, and weigh the feedback based on what they play, and have played in the past 8 months or so. Example: If I dont see a warlock and a sorc with reasonable PLs and end game gear on the account of those claiming warlock is more DPS than a sorc, that feedback gets assigned low value at best. "Ruining my fun" is far too subjective of a reason to nerf, and "warlock is top DPS" is simply wrong, and the constant repetition of it after multiple threads where this is proven incorrect only subtracts from the cred of those continually making this claim.

Warlock:
Easier to play, yes
Easier entry into LE content. yes
Less time consumption to get viable for endgame, yes
Less effort needed to make character survivable, yes
MAX DPS in current meta, no - not even in the top 5.

The irony here is there is a case for a warlock nerf. The bandwagon simply asserts incorrect reasons, and repeats them often.


You havent answered the last 4 questions I asked.

Likely because there is no answer without immediately having multiple logical contradictions pointed out in the "nerf warlock because it ruins my fun" position.

So let me get this right, if you say warlock is not over performing is right, based on what?
If I say warlock is overperforming is wrong based on what?

We do have different opinion. But only you're opinion seems right. OK, that's cool.

Witch question?

If you think I play with bad sorc you play with bad warlocks, and that will be sad since WK is so easy to play, as you said.

And just for you to know I played my main as a sorc last 3 month (tr'd last weekend to try monk) and my second toon is a pure 20 warlock scholar capstone. If I say something it's because I can compare it.

Now, do you play Wk and sorc? Can you compare it?

If you want screenshot on my sorc and wk, I can post them rigth away, well that's not true...need to go home from work first

Could you do the same? If not please stop assuming things on me.

[Mr_Helmet]

2 words : Bladeforged , reconstruct

So we want a video of this done on a fleshy melee?

[Mr_Helmet]

I think you guys need to start disclosing the real reasons why you want warlock nerfed - lack of need of PLs and lack of need of planning around a spell point pool, and the amount of survivability they get for smaller effort put in.

That's more than a good enough reason. Nerf 'em all to death!

[Forzah]

You havent answered the last 4 questions I asked.

You mean the question whether he played a sorceror recently because you assumed he said 3k SP instead of 3k extra SP? Why would he even have to answer that before you apologize for misreading?

[BigErkyKid]

So we want a video of this done on a fleshy melee?

I have already done it and posted it. It is possible, it is FAR more painful than the casual stroll that that guy was taking on his warlock. And I don't think all fleshy melees can do it; my barb certainly couldn't, and I had good gear and PLs. Then, I could on my ranger.

As for the discussion on casters: mana efficient casters are now more powerful and survivable than the majority of melees IN QUESTING. Raids are a bit different, its a discussion on its own.

Warlock remains the easiest one of them all, and it is certainly good enough to obliterate any quest in the game in any difficulty. Everyone knows that. No, I cannot do that on all other toons. Some can complete, but the utter level of destruction and how it makes it look like its always casual setting is a big comparative grudge.

PS - So the current meta is to farm slavers. Which toon provides the easiest walk in the park? I would say warlock. I know how freaking easy it is to go through those halls like a hot knife through butter. Or I can take my former fleshy kensei and have the hell of a time. Which would be good if it wasn't because I know that in the instance next to me someone is 10 laps ahead of me crushing the quest. Or if we group, I can pike.

There is a reason why people overwhelmingly answered IN A REAL POLL that they wanted more balanced classes. Turbine acknowledged it. Yet, some years later, here we are, the lack of balance it is at an all time high. Take a human kensei in slavers VS a ES/TS warlock and report the difference. It isn't the same game...