Warlock NERF Again

[Rys]

Eth is a great player, not doubting that. But to clarify, I just took a quick look at eth's channel and there are 0 ( zero ) vids of him soloing anything challenging on a fleshy melee or a ranged (unless you consider VOD at lvl 28 challenging). All his solos in the last year are done by casters or robots, just saying.

People don't want to show since everyone will jump on the bandwagon too OP pls nerf from watching one video (like that never ever happened...).

[Chai]

I am talking Pure sorc, without shiradi boring stuff and non WAI aura's, or warlock OP stuff.

So now we're moving to goal posts to something that hasnt had a pass in years to justify nerfing something that came out far more recently.

Forums still havent learned this lesson.

Sure if you think sorcs and clerics should be the benchmarks, then everything else should be nerfed. Do people really think the benchmark for 2016 should be something that had its last pass 4-5 years ago, and everything else should be compared to those obsolete designs to determine character power?

[BigErkyKid]

Citation needed.

Where did I say it would be easy?
I just have a hard time believing you can't do it on a barb.

I couldn't. Obviously I am not DDO's yardstick, but the mechanics seem very unforgiving for non super heals builds.

Maybe I need to find a way to understand better how to do it, maybe you can get the bosses to aggro on something else, pull in some way, I don't know. But I am certain that you cannot stand there and take their beating like we see it on warlocks.

I have to say, some people overperform. There are very ingenious players, and despite what some people say there is clearly skill in some of the stuff that we see in achievements. But warlock doesn't require any. It is the biggest easy button I have ever seen in DDO. Chances of dying become incredible small, you do damage PASSIVELY, it is unresisted, no mana management for the most part.

I mean seriously! They clearly cannot balance QUESTS around both that easy button and people playing builds with higher risk of dying, etc.

The guy from Sarlona who posted the video is very knowledgeable of the game, has plenty of gear and PLS, and so on. Now, there is a moment when he says he wishes the end fight were a bit harder. And honestly that fight in say a fleshy kensei is straight from hell, as it should be. Now pick some of the currently overperforming builds and pufff the challenge is gone.

[nokowi]

This is not about arguing if it's possible or not. Everything is possible in DDO because I believe, unlike some others, player's skill matters. I only don't like when someone asks for proofs and then doesn't want to post anything himself

Bah, I missed it if this happened. Let me apologize

You will have to combine your request for a video with a quote showing their demand for a video for those of us with poor reading skills.

[Angelic-council]

He tanks LE raids. He is a very good player.

Yes I prefer charisma warlock myself. With proper movement you can mitigate alot of damage and maximize damage. Let's face it - these high defense builds are the result of how hard things hit in LE shroud.

I get big damage out of magic missle slas and chain lightning. Those are longer range and it's a different playstyle but are just as effective. I agree the eld burst and spirit blast are nice - it's about the only advantage a warlock has is bursting mobs but it also puts them in close range with enemies unlike longer range spells. They are weaker on dc, feat starved and weaker on single-target damage. Their defenses are good, but you get sold defenses on a dps caster with a /3 fighter or paladin splash.

People don't tank LE raids like in slavers LE, they simply kite as they can withstand couple of hits. I didn't know 2.5k HP automatically make players a very good player. That video is more about the build.. it does show what warlocks can achieve tho.

[nokowi]

People don't tank LE raids like in slavers LE, they simply kite as they can withstand couple of hits. I didn't know 2.5k HP automatically make players a very good player. That video is more about the build.. it does show what warlocks can achieve tho.

Rys - Can you link the LE Sorjak tanking video again?

I'm beginning to see the value of videos...

[slarden]

You accuse his credibility, but yet fail to give any proof of yours other than words. No different than anyone else, who asks for videos without providing them themselves.

You are not having a discussion with people that run with you in game, hence if you want to make a point, you need to provide some facts (videos or screenshots in this case).

Look at my build threads I've for years been linking elite completions, but haven't bothered recently because soloing elite isn't really all that much of an achievement any more.

The last time I succumbed to such a challenge after someone doubted me I swore it will be the last time I altered my game play for a forumite - it's as simple as that. Here is the last time:

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...=1#post5602744

There is enough people on Sarlona that ran with me and know what I do on my main 6 characters. All of my main 6 do well soloing elite.

[BigErkyKid]

OK, done! I soloed LE p3 slavers on my melee ranger. I killed a lot more than I should have, and it took me a while to figure out fully the mechanics of the last fight. So excuse my looooong time.

Posting the screenshot.



But trust me, I cannot face roll all the bosses at the same time like that warlock.

[slarden]

I was playing 20 sorc till saturday, and I did had light armor from EK, but it's an heavy investment cos sorc need a second savant tree to cover main element immune mobs, so if you go EK you give up second element so trade off.

Warlock get that without many problem as ES give you lots of light power, additional MRR/PRR, temp hp, there's no trade off, you get everything.

I agree with you Sorc can deal lot of damage that's they're role, BUT every single thing they cast cost SP, that's the trade off. Also they can find mob immune or highly resistant to they're element everywhere.

Warlock use FREE automatic aura or blast (unlimited use), 2 FREE burst (unlimited use), with no save (light and devil) canno't be reduced 99% of mobs (if you find the 1% mobs with MRR just switch to force) , and half damage on pact if they save. No trade off.

Warlock can burn all they're mana bar with hellball and ruin for bosses as they won't need it much for trash.

In the end sorc does big dps with tradeoff, warlock does big dps without trade off. But that's all cool.

Sorc gets alot more sp than warlock and while the slas aren't free they are close to it. ES Warlock only gets 2 blasts and 2-3 aura ticks in a 5 second period. Beyond that warlock is burning sp and they have a much smaller spell point pool. Sorcs also have better options for reducing metamagic cost for non-slas.

I think those blasts and aura are good at end game, but only because they fit in nice with a rotation of epic destiny and feat spells - energy burst, divine wrath, hellball.

I think the builds that rely primarily on spirit blast, eldritch burst and aura are weak. That's just simple math.

Base damage before spellpower and metamagic (includes bonus 6d6 light damage procs, 4x ts pact damage and 1 eb feat - fairly typical for an ES build).

Eld Burst: 105 (11d6 base, 14d4 pact, 9d6 light)
Spirit Blast: 129.5 (11d6 base, 14d4 pact, 16d6 light)
Energy Burst: 690 (30d6 + 450)
Dragon's Breath: 690 (30d6 + 450)
Divine Wrath: 210 (60d6)
Hellball: 186 (12d20 + 60)

Chain Lightning / Lightning Bolt: 100 (20d3 + 60 lightning bolt requires master of air)
Greater Shout: 150 (30d3 + 90 with master of music or 100 without)
Horn of Thunder: 125 (25d4 sonic + 25d4 electric)

As I've said before I think all the light procs from the ES tree should be subject to a save, maybe same as pact, if the devs think charisma dumping is a problem.

[slarden]

If it's minimal, make them use light armor. Why the heck can warlocks use medium armor for 2 AP? Meh, make them walk in pajamas, that would only be just. And remove all the temporary HP stuff and the 20% hp capstone that makes no sense to be on a caster tree. They should have either less DPS than sorc, or less survivability.

They have no arcane spell failure reduction in their tree. A wiz or sorc using a race with 15% arcane spell failure reduction can /3 fighter splash for free shield feats+ proficiency, 20% hp and use heavy armor (15% reduction racial, 15% augment, 5% Eld Knight for 6ap).

It's not like warlocks have some monopoly on high defenses.

Warlocks don't have much in the way of dps spells other than what they get from the enh tree. Those are close range spells requiring up-close contact with enemies which is why it's a more tanky tree to begin with.

I broke down base damage with light and pact damage in previous post. It's not amazing but it doesn't suck either.

[IBCrabin]

OK, done! I soloed LE p3 slavers on my melee ranger. I killed a lot more than I should have, and it took me a while to figure out fully the mechanics of the last fight. So excuse my looooong time.

Posting the screenshot.



But trust me, I cannot face roll all the bosses at the same time like that warlock.

Flavor build with Dwarf Constitution(?) ranger using war hammer is hardly a good comparison to a min maxed capstone warlock (voodoo) with 3 piece slave lord, 2 piece LGS spec with 27% spell critical item in light and resonance and 2k hp.

Most class if not all can solo LE slavelord; the question is how long and how much gear each toon has to be comparable to each other?

Try an intelligent dire charge twf human ranger with human damage boost / haste boost with slavelord gear, TF khopeshes, warrior focus necklace, litany, etc etc, and there will be a noticeable difference in completion time.

[96th_Malice]

I would like to see a stat counter on how many players has been driven away* by introducing the Warlock class to DDO.

?13,1

Agreed ..... I'm guessing none.

The tears are real tho THIS is a fact.

I can solo " most " content on a second life archer ..... Will it take me longer than a Warlock ??

YUP !!

Do I care ??

NOPE !!

Would I give 2 S#its if DDO knocked back ranged damage ??

NOPE !!

Oh well the quest takes me an additional 10 minutes ....

I will say tho .... maybe a little more attention should have been paid to the so called Monk Pass rather than messing with an unbroken Class

[BigErkyKid]

Flavor build with Dwarf Constitution(?) ranger using war hammer is hardly a good comparison to a min maxed capstone warlock (voodoo) with 3 piece slave lord, 2 piece LGS spec with 27% spell critical item in light and resonance and 2k hp.

Most class if not all can solo LE slavelord; the question is how long and how much gear each toon has to be comparable to each other?

Try an intelligent dire charge twf human ranger with human damage boost / haste boost with slavelord gear, TF khopeshes, warrior focus necklace, litany, etc etc, and there will be a noticeable difference in completion time.

This toon is flavor, but not soooo much. It has no fail dire charge in there and it is strength based with decent kta. It's missing some damage from litany (which I can get from planar set), a slightly worse crit profile and the oh dear racial supremacy element of human damage boost. It doesn't have the set but it has slavers stuff on him.

All that to say that it's not super min maxed but it's some. The time is very related to me taking it slow, making various mistakes, and basically doing a figuring it out run.

I certainly couldn't do it in my barb, who was better geared and min maxed. He had a toee set and was also dire charging in there. But that end fight was just too much, I couldn't possibly do it even though now I know how to solo it in general.

And a "better" min maxed ranger can shave off time (heck even I can do that it's not that I don't know the build or the gear). But the general principle stands. That a lot of the differences we see in how content is difficult or not do not stem from skillz but from inherent build power.

If I step in there on a warlock I will obliterate the quest without thinking. I will crush it. I have done it, I have played the ugly class. With pulse, ruins, hellball everything melts in that quest. Perhaps it's not the ultimate best min maxed for raids, but that's a tiny fraction of the game anyway.

I think that's one of the big problems of the game. Even if you don't go full flavor there are too many differences in build power. When grouping it is most noticeable. I think warlock is one of the worst offenders in that sense. I am not alone, a large fraction of the player base is face rolling most content on warlocks. It certainly affects the quality of grouping, as people notice how the class really is a cake walk. Better geared and played toons struggle more, require more thinking, and generally are not as efficient at crushing the quest. Orange names? Hurl. Alert worth of mobs? Baboom. Boss? No problem, mana dump because there are tons of shrines in there. Survivabiluty is not an issue, if needed twist in sacred ground.

I sense a general incapacity or perhaps it's lack of will to create a more balanced experience. Some people don't care about that, but I do. Also the vast majority of people I play with like to have powerful toons.

Ok enough ranting!

[BigErkyKid]

Flavor build with Dwarf Constitution(?) ranger using war hammer is hardly a good comparison to a min maxed capstone warlock (voodoo) with 3 piece slave lord, 2 piece LGS spec with 27% spell critical item in light and resonance and 2k hp.

Most class if not all can solo LE slavelord; the question is how long and how much gear each toon has to be comparable to each other?

Try an intelligent dire charge twf human ranger with human damage boost / haste boost with slavelord gear, TF khopeshes, warrior focus necklace, litany, etc etc, and there will be a noticeable difference in completion time.

Btw that warlock is not min maxed in my opinion. At least not in an efficient way.

[Vanhooger]

Sorc gets alot more sp than warlock and while the slas aren't free they are close to it. ES Warlock only gets 2 blasts and 2-3 aura ticks in a 5 second period. Beyond that warlock is burning sp and they have a much smaller spell point pool. Sorcs also have better options for reducing metamagic cost for non-slas.

I think those blasts and aura are good at end game, but only because they fit in nice with a rotation of epic destiny and feat spells - energy burst, divine wrath, hellball.

I think the builds that rely primarily on spirit blast, eldritch burst and aura are weak. That's just simple math.

Base damage before spellpower and metamagic (includes bonus 6d6 light damage procs, 4x ts pact damage and 1 eb feat - fairly typical for an ES build).

Eld Burst: 105 (11d6 base, 14d4 pact, 9d6 light)
Spirit Blast: 129.5 (11d6 base, 14d4 pact, 16d6 light)
Energy Burst: 690 (30d6 + 450)
Dragon's Breath: 690 (30d6 + 450)
Divine Wrath: 210 (60d6)
Hellball: 186 (12d20 + 60)

Chain Lightning / Lightning Bolt: 100 (20d3 + 60 lightning bolt requires master of air)
Greater Shout: 150 (30d3 + 90 with master of music or 100 without)
Horn of Thunder: 125 (25d4 sonic + 25d4 electric)

As I've said before I think all the light procs from the ES tree should be subject to a save, maybe same as pact, if the devs think charisma dumping is a problem.

Yes but, you know how much does it cost a chain Lightning empowered, maximized & intesify as well if you want even with all the discounted metamagic? THose extra 3k sp wont last long. You also need to make sure you got a very high evo dc with the few feat you get, or you won't deal any damage at all.

As well sorc sla, take air savant that I was running...I don't know how you can even compare them.

t5 Scholar, t3, t5 ES are:

- free
- AoE
- no save
- There's nearly no mob in game who can resist light damage.
- 5sec cooldown for ES
- 6sec cooldown for Scholar one.
- Need to be in melee range (not much of a problem with all temp hp), medium armor basically free.

Now, air savant SLA:

Shoking garsp:

- Single target
- 2 sp
- 4 sec cooldown
- No save
- Range touch
- Electric damage, so can be ignored by many mobs or heavy reduction.

Electirc loop:

- AoE
- Reflex save take half damage, Will save negates Dazed
- Range,Standard for initial hit, Slightly shorter for affected AOE
- 4 sp
- Electric damage, so can be ignored by many mobs or heavy reduction.
- 5 sec cooldown

Lighting bolt:

- Single target, well could be multiple if you perfectly align mob
- 50% chance double proc
- Range, double
- Reflex save takes half damage (2 saves if it forks)
- Electric damage, so can be ignored by many mobs or heavy reduction.
- 6 sec cooldown
- 6 SP
- Lots of time you even miss target cos the target is moving

Are you seriously comparing Sorc SLA with WK burst? C'mon.

Greater shout, horn of thunder? lol

Every party I join there is from 2 to 4 warlock.

If there is only 2 player playing pure sorc at cap in Cannith (me and another guild mate) there is a reason I guess. Well, now it's just one since I tr'd few days ago to try out monk.

Why dont we add 6sp x burst, and 4 spell point per blast and see how you doing.

Forgot to say, since you don't even want to post a screenshot of you're already done Slavers part 3 on a melee, cos you don't need to prove anything as people know you, I don't have to prove anything to you either.

[2pc2]

People don't want to show since everyone will jump on the bandwagon too OP pls nerf from watching one video (like that never ever happened...).

Well that could be an option, though it's hard to believe that someone fears a nerf when other builds (tree,warlock,shiradi) already can solo it easy. Another option is that no one did it because it's pointless to run it on such builds and use a lot of time and resources when you can use easy button builds or be a bladeforged and complete it with half the time and half the troubles. That excuse could be used by everyone, even slarden, I personaly won't believe it if I don't see it. As someone said there's a lot of imaginary uberness in here

[slarden]

Greater shout, horn of thunder? lol

I mentioned greater shout and horn of thunder because they do more damage than spirit blast and eld burst - that is just simple math.

lol all you want but long before warlocks existed randslar was soloing all ee content on a bard . The build is in the bard forum called exalted bard. SP management is key on a bard but I managed and that is why I splashed fvs at times. He wasn't so useful in EE Defiler of the Just but other than that was really good in all end game content long before warlock as a blaster. My blasting warlock build was directly based on my exalted bard build but replacing a few bard spells with the 2 ES SLAs. Now bard is better from a DC/CC perspective so it has some advantages and also some disadvantages compared to a warlock esp on defenses and sp management. It's not an easy button build compared to warlock, but is still easyish once built and geared.

Bard does really well in a party but soloing requires a bit more optimization on spell selection, etc. due to sp limits of a bard.

Again at cap casters are going to use a rotation with higher dps epic spells and the heroic spells are often very supplemental to total damage (excluding shiradi mm spammer of course where heroic spells are bread and butter) all I was showing is that the innate warlock abilities are in the ballpark of other heroic spells and I simply listed 2 available to an air savant and 2 to a bard, but I realize a sorc won't take 2 "master of feats".

I don't usually bother with heighten on my chain lightning. Chain Lightning is 42 spell points on my 30 sorc before 10% discount from legendary pansophic circlet.

If we are comparing specifically ES warlock in US/EA to air savant in draconic
- Sorc has base 1750 spell points at 20 before modifiers. Warlock has 525.
- Sorc gets double sp bonus on items
- 30% chance of 3 temp spell points from electric and sonic including the low cost slas. 10% chance to gain 15 temp spell points from electric with draconic hunger. the 2 procs average to about 2.5 spell points gained per cast including on the 2/4/6 spell point slas and lightning bolt with master of air.

So I get the whole "it's free" thing with the warlock slas but they also have a much smaller sp pool to begin with. As a sorc you can afford the sp cost and that is just a non-sla spell we are talking about. Electric loop and lightning bolt are practically free and with proper timing you can use chain lightning when the temp sp procs. Warlocks don't have many dps spells in their spellbook so they have a much smaller arsenal.

Forgot to say, since you don't even want to post a screenshot of you're already done Slavers part 3 on a melee, cos you don't need to prove anything as people know you, I don't have to prove anything to you either.

Indeed nor do I care. At least you are posting with your real account and not afraid to name your real characters which I respect unlike people with no life coming in here anonymously with a fake account created 10/2016 to troll people.

[Vanhooger]

I mentioned greater shout and horn of thunder because they do more damage than spirit blast and eld burst - that is just simple math. Why do you constantly deny the math?

lol all you want but long before warlocks existed randslar was soloing all ee content on a bard . The build is in the bard forum called exalted bard. SP management is key on a bard but I managed and that is why I splashed fvs at times. He wasn't so useful in EE Defiler of the Just but other than that was really good in all end game content long before warlock as a blaster. My blasting warlock build was directly based on my exalted bard build but replacing a few bard spells with the 2 ES SLAs. Now bard is better from a DC perspective so it had some advantages and also some disadvantages compared to a warlock esp on defenses and sp management. It's not an easy button build compared to warlock, but is still easyish once built and geared.

Again at cap casters are going to use a rotation with higher dps epic spells and the heroic spells are very supplemental to total damage all I was showing is that the innate warlock abilities are in the ballpark of other heroic spells and I simply listed 2 available to an air savant and 2 to a bard, but I realize a sorc won't take 2 "master of feats".

I don't usually bother with heighten on my chain lightning. Chain Lightning is 42 spell points on my 30 sorc before 10% discount from legendary pansophic circlet.

If we are comparing specifically ES warlock in US/EA to air savant in draconic
- Sorc has base 1750 spell points at 20 before modifiers. Warlock has 525.
- Sorc gets double sp bonus on items
- 30% chance of 3 temp spell points from electric and sonic including the low cost slas. 10% chance to gain 15 temp spell points from electric with draconic hunger. the 2 procs average to about 2.5 spell points gained per cast including on the 2/4/6 spell point slas and lightning bolt with master of air.

So I get the whole "it's free" thing with the warlock slas but they also have a much smaller sp pool to begin with. As a sorc you can afford the sp cost and that is just a non-sla spell we are talking about. Electric loop and lightning bolt are practically free and with proper timing you can use chain lightning when the temp sp procs. Warlocks don't have many dps spells in their spellbook so they have a much smaller arsenal.

We were talking about Sorc and you came out with horn of thunder I don't see the connection.
Anything is possible if you got the skill, even doing dps with a Bard but what's the point on discussing it here, we talk about a class that is over performing over others.
You change the subject of the discussion, or whatever it takes, just cos you don't want to say WK is over performing even if you know it yourself.

[Chai]

I would like to see a stat counter on how many players has been driven away* by introducing the Warlock class to DDO.

*Who may or may not return when Developers finally normalize the class, in respect to other casters, and general resourceless, spammable, ranged-aoe dps.

Likely zero.

They are all still here demanding it be nerfed, after all. They didn't leave when paladin "ruined their fun". They didn't leave when bard "ruined their fun". They didn't leave when barbarian self healing "ruined their fun". They didn't leave when fury-shotting "ruined their fun". They didn't leave when shiradi casters "ruined their fun". Theres some pattern based behavior in the feedback over the years for sure, but leaving the game over "Nerf X becauser it ruins my fun" isn't in the pattern.

*Who may or may not return when Developers finally normalize the class, in respect to other casters, and general resourceless, spammable, ranged-aoe dps.

Most of the AOE spam is on the forums, along with the hyperbole. Its gone as far as labeling warlock "passive DPS" claiming you can just stand there with no consequence and mobs die. Seriously if something like this ever happened (and I can assure you it has not in DDO) I would roll one up, name it "Trinity" - then have the party drag me around on a travois while the character lays there on his side "passively" killing all mobs in the dungeon.

Ive asked for a video of this "standing there not moving while killing mobs in LE content" in four different threads now, in the content people are talking about in those threads, and none have shown up. Ironic, because if we look at the last few pages of this thread, its a cacophony of two sides of the polarized argument demanding videos of one and other while not being willing to reciprocate themselves. At minimum, half of those folks are on the side that routinely claims things I am asking for a video on, which doesn't ever provide. I want to see this "passive DPS that kills mobs while standing there never moving" in action.

[Chai]

We were talking about Sorc and you came out with horn of thunder I don't see the connection.
Anything is possible if you got the skill, even doing dps with a Bard but what's the point on discussing it here, we talk about a class that is over performing over others.
You change the subject of the discussion, or whatever it takes, just cos you don't want to say WK is over performing even if you know it yourself.

YOU are talking about sorc. Most of the rest want to use 2016 benchmarks, not benchmarks from 2012.