Warlock NERF Again

[mr420247]

Once again not a single answer

huh so

[slarden]

Also your str, dex, con and int are odd numbers...that must be an exploit and it invalidates this completion!

I am sure the focus of the haters will be how slow melee completions are, but truth is this is a hobbled together undergeared character - it would be much better on my main or if I had lgs or slavers gear - didn't try to make it perfect and nor is that needed for vets until maybe reaper.

But I did take human +3 con and +3 int with action boost so there was at least a little thought before I decided to leave the #s odd. I don't claim this build is optimal or even good, just that like most builds it shouldn't have trouble completing if people put thought into it.

When some people die in that end fight they try and figure out why and make tweaks to improve the experience. Others make sock puppet accounts and demand warlock nerfs.

[mr420247]

Slard ur smart tell me why we shouldn't have stamina bars

N how there not getting everything n nerfing everyone else

Please

[mr420247]

U know a good mech or shuricannon non exploit is supreme dps

u add 1 or 2 n bam baby free

[nokowi]

Hey, I would love to see you doing it as an assassin.

Regarding you're question.

Time was just one factor. You need to put in player skill (while using warlock, so none) and resources used (warlock none). Is this balanced?

Since as you said this is an MMO, why would I play my melee monk in party where there is 2 warlock, 1 shiradi spammer a shruri thrower or any other OP build? I would rather log my warlock and click 2 button, since my monk will just pike.

As well grinding for loot make everyone want to be a warlock. Why would I run xxx time slavers on my fleshy melee when we all have the option to do it better, faster, brain dead, and no resource involved?

Why would I group if I have to wait for some pepole joining or else die and go rescue them, when I can easily speed run solo with my uber warlock?

This, to you, look like an MMO oriented on grouping?

DDO, at least on my server has become 2 to 4 warlock in every single group I join, I wonder why.

Sorcerer, has been defined OP as well in this thread, but I actually see 1 person in my server playing it at cap, why?

DDO has been solo friendly for quite a while now. I would place this starting at the class passes for the masses, but you could place this back at the introduction of epic destiny, or even earlier. By solo friendly, I mean the average player can solo most content, not simply that there are top builds that can solo content.

Given that many of the players still playing like a solo friendly game, it would be tough for DDO to go completely back to a group experience.

So let's take DDO, which is now solo friendly and let's talk about challenge. Does it really exist in today's game? My opinion is that it largely does not and the type of players that remain simply play DDO to get through content in the least amount of time.

Why is everyone playing Warlock? Because DDO is currently for people that want to grind non challenging content by themselves and Warlock does this very well.

The solution is to make a portion of the game challenging enough that we need grouping in this portion of the game, not these threads about who is 5%, 10%, or 30% better than someone else while soloing non challenging content.

I can guarantee that regardless of whether or not I can solo Slavers on my assassin (away from game since this update), my assassin will be at least 3x better in a group. If you take my EE Chronoscope example where I had more kills than one of the top build+top players at the time, it would have laughable for me to try and solo that raid at that time, and laughable to compare what that top build could do solo to what I could do solo. This shows that power can vary widely in group vs solo tests.

The complaints in this thread are about a Warlock IN GROUP ruining other peoples fun. The entire basis of this discussion should be power IN A GROUP to address the complaints actually made, not these timed solo tests.

In solo mode, a player could choose an easier or harder build for soloing. The only reason you would have a problem soloing is if you simply refuse to play the build that matches your own preferences, the difficulty that matches your skill/build/gear, or you are new enough that you only have one build (in which case you are most likely going to be awful anyway).

[nokowi]

For any of you that think it's unbelievable that a melee fleshy can complete this easy chain.

Nerf Slarden!

It's clear his "cheese" melee fleshy build using fortification and damage avoidance is ruining the game for everyone else!

[BigErkyKid]

For any of you that think it's unbelievable that a melee fleshy can complete this easy chain.

I wanted to try this build and like to run it on weaker character first anyhow so was planning to do this anyhow. Let's see if the bigger talker on this thread can deliver a completion. Rhetorical question we all the know the answer.

This is my 9th main I played a total of about 5 hours in the last year. He is undergeared without all the past lifes of my mains. Since the biggest complaints about weak builds were monk, kensai and fleshys I combined all 3 and was planning 12 monk 8 fighter but this guy has 0 sorc lives and 0 fvs lifes so I would have needed pots - so I splashed 1 fvs giving up melee power 1 feat and wings so I could complete with 0 pots. On my main 12 monk 8 fighter would have been no problem.

I intentionally took 0 cleaves or aoe so I was under a worst case scenario for this quest where aoe is super good. So every damage I did the entire quest was single target damage with my 53 int and int to hit and int to damage.

Not the fastest time for sure - just under 35 min but this type of build is not best suited for this quest but would excel many other places. I faced almost no risk in end fight and if I had 2 piece lgs with acid and cold resist it would have been even easier. And even the monk poison immunity wasn't working as I took poison damage.

I have no idea how much time I can trim with better gear and some past lifes - but it would be easier and faster for sure on my main 4 characters.





I am not an elitist by any stretch, but I will say this - there are many players in this game that can complete quests with underpowered characters. The people saying this can't be completed by a fleshy melee are not those people and have no idea about the builds more powerful than warlock like thrower builds.

I prefer easy button builds because I play this game 20 hours per week and don't want all 20 hours to be an extreme challenge. I prefer mostly relaxed social play, but I can complete on builds that aren't ideal when I put my mind to it. While not ideal due to no aoe, the build does fine in here and has ALOT of room for improvement. This was first run on prototype build.

However, if you can't complete this quest consider the most obvious things that will make it easy
- Fort 250% + (Narels)
- high resists in acid and cold and absorb if possible (caster)
- ability to restore stat damage or entirely avoid it (I had had to use scrolls lol - not ideal but neither is this build)
- some way to go stretches without taking much damage - dodge + uncanny dodge, meld into darkness twist form shadowdancer etc. This helps alot with making progress if you find you are taking too much damage.

This is a nice completion!

Not a flavor build, though, and that's fine. Not taking away any credit at all, just saying that the build is actually pretty good as things stand with the monk pass. Gear might not be perfect either but it is far from under geared, as it can be obviously seen. Again just clarifying, not taking credit, which you deserve.

In any case, you know what we are going to say. You skipped half the mobs, yet took you double the time. It's also fine, in such a build it is the smart thing to do.

In the end, at least some of us have known that you can complete it even on those builds for quite some time. Page 4-5 Of this thread, I think. There are others for which I think would quite harder, still. I think it will be some time until we see people posting them in this thread.

And that's the point. You make it yourself. Some toons are more powerful than others. That's why when someone has limited playtime using the op builds is so much better. Because it is more efficient, because in group play it is simply nicer. The fact that you state it yourself kinda makes it pointless for me to reiterate.

So bottom line, I agree with you. And you make the point I want to make when you comment on why you use the builds you are playing.

I see that imbalance as a problem.

[BigErkyKid]

Nerf Slarden!

It's clear his "cheese" melee fleshy build using fortification and damage avoidance is ruining the game for everyone else!

Reaaaaally...

[slarden]

This is a nice completion!

Not a flavor build, though, and that's fine. Not taking away any credit at all, just saying that the build is actually pretty good as things stand with the monk pass. Gear might not be perfect either but it is far from under geared, as it can be obviously seen. Again just clarifying, not taking credit, which you deserve.

In any case, you know what we are going to say. You skipped half the mobs, yet took you double the time. It's also fine, in such a build it is the smart thing to do.

In the end, at least some of us have known that you can complete it even on those builds for quite some time. Page 4-5 Of this thread, I think. There are others for which I think would quite harder, still. I think it will be some time until we see people posting them in this thread.

And that's the point. You make it yourself. Some toons are more powerful than others. That's why when someone has limited playtime using the op builds is so much better. Because it is more efficient, because in group play it is simply nicer. The fact that you state it yourself kinda makes it pointless for me to reiterate.

So bottom line, I agree with you. And you make the point I want to make when you comment on why you use the builds you are playing.

I see that imbalance as a problem.

Thank you.

Just a few days ago people were doubting I could even complete on a melee - including you - in a seriously derogatory and insulting way - something I was shocked at because I never had a problem completing on any character. I intentionally used a build with 0 AOE using the 2 classes complained about in this thread the most - monk and fighter - plus fleshy. In other words I intentionally used an amalgamated build of the 3 traits complained about the most in this thread - so while you call it a stronger build - that isn't what you would get if you read this thread.

Of course the build would perform slower in a quest where aoe damage is optimal. This build would actually do quite well in DOJ for example - if it was geared up better etc.

Also I want to point out this was my 9th main - not my most accomplished character or even a top 8 character. I ended up with a 53 int on a build where my damage/attack is int. Again, if I have a 17 int item, quality int 4 or many of the other gear I was lacking it would go faster. I realized I wouldn't have enough hp to do ok in there so I had to put my level ups to con to get to 1600 hp which is what I view as the min hp I would solo with - not to say you can't go with less hp - but on a melee that # seemed about right to me. The build is far far far from ideal compared to my other characters or other people running on optimized caster builds.

My whole point which many people already knew is that it only takes a few key things for any build to beat the end fight. One is a 250% or so fortification because Narels can break through alot of fort. I am not sure exactly the cut off is but I am seeing big damage #s even with a 200% fort so I am sure that isn't enough.

Secondly a 2 piece LGS material opposition set - I think with acid / cold ideally - at least it seems those are the elements I take the most damage with - even with evasion. I didn't have this but I think I was also taking less damage to saves and improved evasions. I also took less poison damage, but with diamond body my expectation is I should take 0 like on a pm.

Thirdly is prr. Prr is the biggest easy button in this game and this was on a character in a robe in water stance. There are many ways to beef up prr including overlooked feats like two weapon defense and epic damage reduction. Getting to 200 while blitzing is not hard. In my case I ran past the mudman, shrined and then went back and killed the mudman slowly without buffs (even without kta) so I could get my stacks up to 10 before the end fight.

Lastly I don't claim to be best player, but I quickly figured out on other characters to go for damage bursts right after the caster aoe attack. I would run in throw on my consecrate use dps clickies and make fast progress on the boss before the next aoe attack - I just ran out of it - this character isn't tanky enough to stand in for the aoe attack.

I was only ever below 50% 5 or so times the whole end fight although I was being careful but still aggressive. I was knocked down a few times - didn't die.

Blasting warlock is really really good in slavers as are other aoe builds. Blasting warlock is underwhelming in LE shroud, LE tempest spine and other places. So while I agree warlock needs a nerf, I think many other nerfs are needed and I would hope the devs do any more warlock nerfs as part of an overall balance adjustment rather than as a knee-jerk reaction to threads like this.

If I compare the state of melees now to the state of PMs in quests where PM DC doesn't work at all - there is no comparsion. There are very few quests in the game a melee can't complete with good play. There are many where a PM couldn't complete when the content was new.

I do agree overall that with the combo of the mortal fear nerf, martial crit downward adjustments, epic feat caster buff and how hard LE enemies hit, casters have it a bit easier at the moment compared especially to melees. That is why I am mostly playing casters at the moment, although it's also in part because they've been somewhat behind the curve for so long I am enjoying the chance to play them regularly again.

I don't think it's as imbalanced as it was prior to level cap 30 where martial builds with mortal fear were dominating everything, but I do think it's tilted a bit in favor of casters at the moment. However, I don't think it's such a huge issue it can't wait until reaper is available and re-assess at that time. The pecking order for builds changes alot depending on the enemies faced. Blasting builds are especially weak against high hp mobs because it doesn't scale at all and despite a few free weaker bursts warlocks still use alot of sp on the epic spells that do more dps.

[Vanhooger]

For any of you that think it's unbelievable that a melee fleshy can complete this easy chain.

I wanted to try this build and like to run it on weaker character first anyhow so was planning to do this anyhow. Let's see if the bigger talker on this thread can deliver a completion. Rhetorical question we all the know the answer.

This is my 9th main I played a total of about 5 hours in the last year. He is undergeared without all the past lifes of my mains. Since the biggest complaints about weak builds were monk, kensai and fleshys I combined all 3 and was planning 12 monk 8 fighter but this guy has 0 sorc lives and 0 fvs lifes so I would have needed pots - so I splashed 1 fvs giving up melee power 1 feat and wings so I could complete with 0 pots. On my main 12 monk 8 fighter would have been no problem.

I intentionally took 0 cleaves or aoe so I was under a worst case scenario for this quest where aoe is super good. So every damage I did the entire quest was single target damage with my 53 int and int to hit and int to damage.

Not the fastest time for sure - just under 35 min but this type of build is not best suited for this quest but would excel many other places. I faced almost no risk in end fight and if I had 2 piece lgs with acid and cold resist it would have been even easier. And even the monk poison immunity wasn't working as I took poison damage.

I have no idea how much time I can trim with better gear and some past lifes - but it would be easier and faster for sure on my main 4 characters.





I am not an elitist by any stretch, but I will say this - there are many players in this game that can complete quests with underpowered characters. The people saying this can't be completed by a fleshy melee are not those people and have no idea about the builds more powerful than warlock like thrower builds.

I prefer easy button builds because I play this game 20 hours per week and don't want all 20 hours to be an extreme challenge. I prefer mostly relaxed social play, but I can complete on builds that aren't ideal when I put my mind to it. While not ideal due to no aoe, the build does fine in here and has ALOT of room for improvement. This was first run on prototype build.

However, if you can't complete this quest consider the most obvious things that will make it easy
- Fort 250% + (Narels)
- high resists in acid and cold and absorb if possible (caster)
- ability to restore stat damage or entirely avoid it (I had had to use scrolls lol - not ideal but neither is this build)
- some way to go stretches without taking much damage - dodge + uncanny dodge, meld into darkness twist form shadowdancer etc. This helps alot with making progress if you find you are taking too much damage.

Indeed gratz mate. Well done. And for the record never said it was impossible on a fleshy melee.

Said that not only the time is way longer then the warlock, but you killed half the mob on you're way, if I do that on my warlock don't know what time I could get.

And tell me...was it easy as wizard completion? Be honest.

As well you need to tweak you're build just to complete this one quest. On my warlock I entered as I always do any quest. No bother about fort, miss chance high resist or anything else, just spam 2 button.
I could even change my destiny to crausader, shiradi or whatever the result will be the same.

[psykopeta]

Poor slarden, 1st they say he can't complete, there's no proof after 35 pages! U're lying!

And now they say it would take more time only

Gj on the completion! At least u posted some proof, the whining crew keeps sticking to somrthing they haven't done, which is weird if the toon is so op that it needs a nerf (a 3rd time bad aimed nerf tho)

[Vanhooger]

The complaints in this thread are about a Warlock IN GROUP ruining other peoples fun. The entire basis of this discussion should be power IN A GROUP to address the complaints actually made, not these timed solo tests.

Those solo run were only taken just to compare the difference in power between warlock and some other classes.
If you group with warlocks, you're ddo experience is even worst as you find them at lest 2 or 4 in every group.
In raid party you can find even 6-8 of them sometimes.

[Vanhooger]

Poor slarden, 1st they say he can't complete, there's no proof after 35 pages! U're lying!

And now they say it would take more time only

Gj on the completion! At least u posted some proof, the whining crew keeps sticking to somrthing they haven't done, which is weird if the toon is so op that it needs a nerf (a 3rd time bad aimed nerf tho)

No matter what I say, you guys will defend Warlock no matter what.
Those screenshot are the reflection of imbalance but it's cool keep you're easy button and make this game be Warlock & Warlock online.

[Atheok]

No matter what I say, you guys will defend Warlock no matter what.
Those screenshot are the reflection of imbalance but it's cool keep you're easy button and make this game be Warlock & Warlock online.

How about this?

Someone please correct me and post me a standing record of a warlock (20 pure) of a quest/raid. Speedrun! If it's as OP as you ppl say it is, I'm sure it won't be an issue to find those records. Then we can compare with other builds. GO GO ! New Challenge!

[Vanhooger]

How about this?

So the only 3 quest were you are not OP with a warlock you're complaining, right.
Ask the dev if they can do something about it so you can use you're easy button to crush that too, since 99% of the content isn't enough.

[BigErkyKid]

Thank you.

Just a few days ago people were doubting I could even complete on a melee - including you - in a seriously derogatory and insulting way - something I was shocked at because I never had a problem completing on any character.

When you say you complete on a barbarian and a list of other toons in the way you did, then yeah, I think that some surprise is in order. I don't recall being derogatory, but if I was I apologize. I had not tried to solo it at the time (we are talking page 2), hence based my observation on my group play experience (which felt harder, perhaps it had to do with scaling). Around page 3 I decided to do it on a semi flavor build, and while I took a while, I got it done. So I understood that it was possible on some strong DPS melee build, fleshy and all, but at the same time harder.

The complaints about melee and fighter are quite valid, in my opinion. First, if you read our posts, we didn't say the fight was impossible, just harder (and it is) and probably not everyone can do it on those builds. I was not ashamed to acknowledge that I had failed on both a barbarian and on a fleshy kensei in heavy armor. Yet I can do it on another build (semi flavor ranger). To me that points out to power disparities, as I am equally skilled (or unskilled) but just switching builds.

Second, a lot of it referred to group play, where those toons are particularly outshined by other options which currently hold more power overall. Finally, I still think a barb or a fighter, as in the typical builds we see in the forums (for human builds) would have a pretty hard time in there. Having very high dodge is quite nice in that boss fight, as you know.

I intentionally used a build with 0 AOE using the 2 classes complained about in this thread the most - monk and fighter - plus fleshy. In other words I intentionally used an amalgamated build of the 3 traits complained about the most in this thread - so while you call it a stronger build - that isn't what you would get if you read this thread.

A pure fleshy kensei fighter has less healing than you do there, and has a lower dodge potential. At the moment, IMHO it is unclear whether fighter monk splashes are even weaker than more traditional fighters. The henshin MP boost and some of the clicky options are nice. In fact we have someone already crafting a monk/fighter split with 12k burst damage.

I still don't think I can do it on a pure fighter or barbarian, and while this has been done, I still think it is much harder than on other classes.

Now in your own words this is an easy quest. Take this to raids, and then the power disparity is quite obvious.

Also I want to point out this was my 9th main - not my most accomplished character or even a top 8 character. I ended up with a 53 int on a build where my damage/attack is int. Again, if I have a 17 int item, quality int 4 or many of the other gear I was lacking it would go faster. I realized I wouldn't have enough hp to do ok in there so I had to put my level ups to con to get to 1600 hp which is what I view as the min hp I would solo with - not to say you can't go with less hp - but on a melee that # seemed about right to me. The build is far far far from ideal compared to my other characters or other people running on optimized caster builds.

It also has abundant displacement clickies, tempest robe, a bunch of consumables, etc. Perhaps you have some LGS HP set? Cannot tell for sure, but 1600 without stalwart bonus hit points is not bad at all. It is fine, I never said you should try it on a holy club fighter, but it is not what we would call a first life under geared. More power to you, not much to say other than that.

Blasting warlock is really really good in slavers as are other aoe builds. Blasting warlock is underwhelming in LE shroud, LE tempest spine and other places. So while I agree warlock needs a nerf, I think many other nerfs are needed and I would hope the devs do any more warlock nerfs as part of an overall balance adjustment rather than as a knee-jerk reaction to threads like this.

No disagreement at all here.

If I compare the state of melees now to the state of PMs in quests where PM DC doesn't work at all - there is no comparsion. There are very few quests in the game a melee can't complete with good play. There are many where a PM couldn't complete when the content was new.

I wouldn't count PM as over performing, although arguable it is incredibly strong in some content. It has a role, so to speak.

I do agree overall that with the combo of the mortal fear nerf, martial crit downward adjustments, epic feat caster buff and how hard LE enemies hit, casters have it a bit easier at the moment compared especially to melees. That is why I am mostly playing casters at the moment, although it's also in part because they've been somewhat behind the curve for so long I am enjoying the chance to play them regularly again.

Again no disagreement.

I don't think it's as imbalanced as it was prior to level cap 30 where martial builds with mortal fear were dominating everything, but I do think it's tilted a bit in favor of casters at the moment. However, I don't think it's such a huge issue it can't wait until reaper is available and re-assess at that time. The pecking order for builds changes alot depending on the enemies faced. Blasting builds are especially weak against high hp mobs because it doesn't scale at all and despite a few free weaker bursts warlocks still use alot of sp on the epic spells that do more dps.

Here is where we disagree. I don't think reaper should be the only measure of balance. A lot of people won't even play it.

[Atheok]

So the only 3 quest were you are not OP with a warlock you're complaining, right.
Ask the dev if they can do something about it so you can use you're easy button to crush that too, since 99% of the content isn't enough.

Is this a quest with the record time? I must be hallucinating then.. Let's try this again...

Someone please correct me and post me a standing record of a warlock (20 pure) of a quest/raid. Speedrun! If it's as OP as you ppl say it is, I'm sure it won't be an issue to find those records. Then we can compare with other builds. GO GO ! New Challenge!

[Vanhooger]

Is this a quest with the record time? I must be hallucinating then.. Let's try this again...

If you look at this thread, my warlock 20 pure still have the best time yet, unless I missed some other screenshot.
Anyway, time isn't the only factor.

[Atheok]

If you look at this thread, my warlock 20 pure still have the best time yet, unless I missed some other screenshot.
Anyway, time isn't the only factor.

You consider that a speedrun and an ultimate record for a solo part3? Oh, but when you are talking about warlock as the most OP build, I mean surelly there must be a quest that it can speedrun faster than any other build right? Let me know of that quest please.

[Vanhooger]

You consider that a speedrun and an ultimate record for a solo part3 ?

Not at all, in fact was a normal loot run. Still don't see better time even in the achievements forum for now. Post one mate, what you want me to say.