Warlock NERF Again

[BigErkyKid]

Stalwart is a DPS tree as well. It adds strength as well as a 2 target attack mini-dance of death.

:S I don't have anything to add.

[slarden]

41 points in ES caps out at 19 PRR 29 MRR 20% HP. Which is less tanky than 13 points in StD. Your statements make me think there is something missing in your knowledge or willingness to defensive layer if you think ES is that tanky or are unable to generally survive on a fleshy revamped class (any of them).

When you compare the 19 PRR available in ES to the 329 total PRR in my kensai steel clad maiden build, it is a drop in the bucket. Thinking 19 PRR from ES is significant is tied somehow to the inability to survive LE solo. 19 PRR is not that significant on any build that survives LE solo.

/3 fighter not only gives you prr, mrr, hp it also gives 2 feats which could be shield feats.

The reason why ES is a little more tanky with the #s above is because all the dps is very close combat. As you say the defense actually coming from ES is small. The 20% hp and knock-down immunity are the 2 big benefits. You get 45 PRR and 15 MRR from shield feats and twisting legendary shield mastery. You get 36 PRR and 18 MRR from past lifes.

The math doesn't matter because for those folks it's an emotional battle not something based on facts.

SE/TS is good - I mean I use it on one of my warlocks, but you give up crit chance and single-target dps. If you go SE/TS you max crit chance and damage but give up all the survivability and light damage.

If you go ES/SE you give up crit damage and can barely fit in utterdark.

From that perspective the trees are fairly balanced. We have people complaining ES is overpowered and others saying ES isn't overpowered but TS is. I wish we had more facts coming from the people calling for nerfs rather than just lolz.

[Merlocke]

The vast majority of my guildies are running it in warlocks.

but as someone who HATES grinding , I have the hardest time with this mentality and the builds used.

when I run slavers with people in my guild I feel I am piking. Keeping blitz is super hard

make me very necessary.

I am sure my guildies can solo no problem the whole chain. I struggle;

I struggled on my barb, on my fleshy kensei, and a bit less but I still suffered in my fleshy ranger. The end fight needed strategy and I couldn't do it on my barb.

It felt utterly pointless

I uninstalled once again DDO. It felt pointless.

So much is revealed here. I cant do well so it must be your fault. Nerf you!!!

No one cares about your feels. Adapt and Overcome, or stay uninstalled.

[2pc2]

41 points in ES caps out at 19 PRR 29 MRR 20% HP. Which is less tanky than 13 points in StD. Your statements make me think there is something missing in your knowledge or willingness to defensive layer if you think ES is that tanky or are unable to generally survive on a fleshy revamped class (any of them).

When you compare the 19 PRR available in ES to the 329 total PRR in my kensai steel clad maiden build, it is a drop in the bucket. Thinking 19 PRR from ES is significant is tied somehow to the inability to survive LE solo. 19 PRR is not that significant on any build that survives LE solo.

It's not only the prr or the hp. If you look carefully at the warlock vid, what keeps him alive so easy and what's really OP is the temp hp he gets every second at no cost by doing... NOTHING lol.

[Chai]

I mean precisely what you said. Things should have a trade off. More DPS? Ok, then less tankiness. More CC? Less DPS. And so on.

You know what I mean, you just wrote about it.

Right now warlocks have too much of everything. Utility / CC / DPS / Tankiness. That guy goes CON based and yet has very decent DPS. He can face roll the 5 bosses together while he chuckles when he talks about difficulty. He didn't do it based on skill, he didn't use any strategy, didn't think of a way to beat the challenge. He just face rolled it.

Then I go in my pure fleshy kensei and I don't even make it to the end fight without being super careful, to be frank that has yet to happen. I try on my barb and fail. It took me using an arguably semi easy button to finish, and I still had a hard time. But I know what I can do on a warlock, I don't even need it to be CON based.

So yeah, nerfing warlock does not necessarily mean burning it. It means giving it a role. If ES is tanky, then DPS should suffer more. And so on.

Then this isn't communicated very well amongst the cries of "it ruins my fun" and "it stands there and does nothing while everything around it dies" , not to mention the many MANY very false claims that it is top DPS in the current meta, because all that has accomplished is nerfing its survivability. Now to make up for that survivability people will play cha to kill faster, which takes less damage, because mobs live less time. Here the devs give the nerf happy part of the community exactly what they want, and it wont make them happy yet again. Now we will have one solid choice for this class in the meta, which is the same choice we have for most other classes. All points into offense, and kill as quickly as possible. No need to add survival when that trash mob that I would have needed to stand next to and DPS, simply gets insta-killed before it reaches me. Cha build lock is also more boss DPS as the boss fails its save versus the pact damage on a max cha build where it pretty much always saves on con based.

"Every class being similarly powerful" means something completely different in a homogenized class game than it does in a game that enforces trade offs. When you say something like this in DDO, and that feedback is acted on, the end result is what you see now, classes that all do everything well. Instead of adjusting to enforce trade offs, which creates more build options, the devs respond by directly nerfing specific effects, creating less viable build options.

As for kensai, and fighter in general, its better survivability and higher DPS than warlock, especially on single targets. The one thing it has less of is recovery, due to less spell power and less mana pool potential. The MAJOR difference? You have to play your keyboard like a player piano in order to get that good DPS out of kensai. If you are struggling on your fighter, chances are your active button clicks for your DPS rotation is sorely lacking, or nonexistent. Ive spent quite a bit of time trying to perfect the DPS rotation order of the many kensai abilities, and sustain the buffs, and its a lot more APM than warlock could possibly be, even with instakills slotted between bursts and blasts. My old school monk didn't require this much button clicking. When I do use the combinations correctly however, the DPS is much higher than if I play it like older school melee, running and swinging, while circle strafing once in a while to game the AI. I don't see this talked about much on the forums, and am convinced most of the community, both on the forums and in game, has not caught on to how to play revamped kensai well.

[2pc2]

to mention the many MANY very false claims that it is top DPS in the current meta

. Now we will have one solid choice for this class in the meta, which is the same choice we have for most other classes. All points into offense, and kill as quickly as possible. No need to add survival when that trash mob that I would have needed to stand next to and DPS, simply gets insta-killed before it reaches me. Cha build lock is also more boss DPS

to mention the many MANY very false claims that it is top DPS in the current meta

Just LOL, in the same post

[Chai]

Just LOL, in the same post

Reading comprehension fail.

The real direct contradiction will be when the forums stop demanding nerfs declaring the current warlock nerf a victory, all the while people will be building for more DPS than they were before. This will directly contradict the false claim that "warlock killing everything before I get there ruins my fun" - because cha warlock will be killing faster than it was before when it was a con warlock.

Heres a conceptual map for those who still don't get it.

<piking-----------------current CON warlock DPS------------current cha warlock DPS-------------top of the meta DPS---->

Claiming people will build for more DPS, doesn't make warlock top of the meta DPS. It means that will be the favored way to build once the survivability option is eroded to the point of falling out of the meta.

[Chai]

It's not only the prr or the hp. If you look carefully at the warlock vid, what keeps him alive so easy and what's really OP is the temp hp he gets every second at no cost by doing... NOTHING lol.

This is what the community asked for, and now waffling 100% on. There have been numerous threads over the years complaining about stuff like the 2 APM needed to refresh frenzy and death frenzy every minute, needing to play one bard song per stat buff, and all these clicks needed to play monks etc. So the devs put a class in the game where the buffs refresh at zero APM and the community goes straight to plaid on the nerf demands. So which is it? Do we want to click abilities to activate them or don't we?

[bartharok]

So which is it? Do we want to click abilities to activate them or don't we?

The forums answer this question: Yes.

[BigErkyKid]

Then this isn't communicated very well amongst the cries of "it ruins my fun" and "it stands there and does nothing while everything around it dies" , not to mention the many MANY very false claims that it is top DPS in the current meta, because all that has accomplished is nerfing its survivability. Now to make up for that survivability people will play cha to kill faster, which takes less damage, because mobs live less time. Here the devs give the nerf happy part of the community exactly what they want, and it wont make them happy yet again. Now we will have one solid choice for this class in the meta, which is the same choice we have for most other classes. All points into offense, and kill as quickly as possible. No need to add survival when that trash mob that I would have needed to stand next to and DPS, simply gets insta-killed before it reaches me. Cha build lock is also more boss DPS as the boss fails its save versus the pact damage on a max cha build where it pretty much always saves on con based.

"Every class being similarly powerful" means something completely different in a homogenized class game than it does in a game that enforces trade offs. When you say something like this in DDO, and that feedback is acted on, the end result is what you see now, classes that all do everything well. Instead of adjusting to enforce trade offs, which creates more build options, the devs respond by directly nerfing specific effects, creating less viable build options.

As for kensai, and fighter in general, its better survivability and higher DPS than warlock, especially on single targets. The one thing it has less of is recovery, due to less spell power and less mana pool potential. The MAJOR difference? You have to play your keyboard like a player piano in order to get that good DPS out of kensai. If you are struggling on your fighter, chances are your active button clicks for your DPS rotation is sorely lacking, or nonexistent. Ive spent quite a bit of time trying to perfect the DPS rotation order of the many kensai abilities, and sustain the buffs, and its a lot more APM than warlock could possibly be, even with instakills slotted between bursts and blasts. My old school monk didn't require this much button clicking. When I do use the combinations correctly however, the DPS is much higher than if I play it like older school melee, running and swinging, while circle strafing once in a while to game the AI. I don't see this talked about much on the forums, and am convinced most of the community, both on the forums and in game, has not caught on to how to play revamped kensai well.

So it must be that I am a bad player? Yet I am the only one here posting some evidence that I soloed it on my fleshy melee. Have you?

I see lots of claims to uberness, telling me I don't know how to build or play. Yet we have zero evidence of solos on fleshy kenseis of that chain. Truth is, maybe someone can do it. So far I can't and I'm not ashamed to accept that. Even if someone can do it, it is completely undeniable that it would be a lot harder than doing it on a warlock. The display of skill would be pretty impressive, whereas we all have seen and played warlocks (I have) and know the difference.

This is the true measure of balance. If the same player in two classes sleep walks with one and struggles s lot with the other then obviously, barring some brain deadness issues, it's the result of the different power. PS - both my warlock and my barb have very decent gear, with several raid items and top of the line quest gear.

As for buffs vs active clickies, I have explained that s million times. I like active clicked, stuff that is not a passive buff but rather results in a special attack in screen. Bonus points if it has a shortish cool down so that you need to time it in a fight. Keeping passive boosts running is just a matter of knowing well where the exit shrine is and not being lazy. Some buffs like divine might or death frenzy are basically 100 uptime, so there is zero skill, just a chore list.

I think it's funny when people resort to attacking skill instead of discussing the evidence at hand. If you want to prove me wrong and show how you can sleep walk that LE quest on a fleshy Kensei of a barb, please do. But no theory crafting on something for which we have gameplay experience. Is it so easy? Do it, show us. Not a single person has shown that so far, but u stead we have seen the warlock face roll.

[BigErkyKid]

Stalwart is a DPS tree as well. It adds strength as well as a 2 target attack mini-dance of death. If that is your viewpoint towards Stalwart and defense, then dying on your kensai makes a lot more sense.

Sure, teach me to play. Show me how you do it. Ok ty!

[Forzah]

Why does nobody talk about difficulty of content? Balance is a multi-faceted concept. It is not limited to comparing the power of characters to each other. Balance also means that the power of a character and the difficulty of content are in line.

I've watched the movie and saw how warlock seemingly effortlessly destroys the newest LE content. In my opinion, it should be nerfed further so that that isn't possible. Similarly, all other classes (and epic destinies) that are too good compared to the content need a nerf. This is in my opinion the only sane way to get an engaging and balanced game.

Luckily reaper mode addresses some of these errors.

[Vanhooger]

Why does nobody talk about difficulty of content? Balance is a multi-faceted concept. It is not limited to comparing the power of characters to each other. Balance also means that the power of a character and the difficulty of content are in line.

I've watched the movie and saw how warlock seemingly effortlessly destroys the newest LE content. In my opinion, it should be nerfed further so that that isn't possible. Similarly, all other classes (and epic destinies) that are too good compared to the content need a nerf. This is in my opinion the only sane way to get an engaging and balanced game.

Luckily reaper mode addresses some of these errors.

Seems like here people like zerg latest content and they don't wan't any difficulty increase.

Last night I felt same way as the other poster...useless in slavers with monk, not cos it's bad but couldn't really do anything other then pike.

Was trying to stay ahead of group with monk speed...could kill one mob with QP then everything else was already dead.

You see a group of mob the warlock as killed them all 1/2 second.

Or run till red and burst you're way.

Not going to answer anymore on this thread as it is pointless, people don't want to see the obvious, defending something that is undeniable.

Anyway this thread is pointless as warlock aura are going to disappear if they do reaper right.

Rip god of dps.

[Vanhooger]

/3 fighter not only gives you prr, mrr, hp it also gives 2 feats which could be shield feats.

The reason why ES is a little more tanky with the #s above is because all the dps is very close combat. As you say the defense actually coming from ES is small. The 20% hp and knock-down immunity are the 2 big benefits. You get 45 PRR and 15 MRR from shield feats and twisting legendary shield mastery. You get 36 PRR and 18 MRR from past lifes.

The math doesn't matter because for those folks it's an emotional battle not something based on facts.

SE/TS is good - I mean I use it on one of my warlocks, but you give up crit chance and single-target dps. If you go SE/TS you max crit chance and damage but give up all the survivability and light damage.

If you go ES/SE you give up crit damage and can barely fit in utterdark.

From that perspective the trees are fairly balanced. We have people complaining ES is overpowered and others saying ES isn't overpowered but TS is. I wish we had more facts coming from the people calling for nerfs rather than just lolz.

Sorry said I wouldn't post here anymore but had to answer you.

You want facts when you don't want to post a single screenshot yourself so please...

If you go scholar capstone and rest ES you still get everything you need and one dot from SE. Bit less HP but you still can get 1,5k hp that is enough to even survive 90% of the mob in LE.

[Rys]

Sorry said I wouldn't post here anymore but had to answer you.

You want facts when you don't want to post a single screenshot yourself so please...

If you go scholar capstone and rest ES you still get everything you need and one dot from SE. Bit less HP but you still can get 1,5k hp that is enough to even survive 90% of the mob in LE.

Don't post anything tbh. It is not worth because when you do they will twist it to their liking anyway.

[Duetotheseverity]

Don't post anything tbh. It is not worth because when you do they will twist it to their liking anyway.

Like you that posted a LE tempest "melee" completion. Forums.......

[Rys]

Like you that posted a LE tempest "melee" completion. Forums.......

Wb <3

[Eryhn]

jeez, this bickering still not locked?

[BigErkyKid]

Seems like here people like zerg latest content and they don't wan't any difficulty increase.

Last night I felt same way as the other poster...useless in slavers with monk, not cos it's bad but couldn't really do anything other then pike.

Was trying to stay ahead of group with monk speed...could kill one mob with QP then everything else was already dead.

You see a group of mob the warlock as killed them all 1/2 second.

Or run till red and burst you're way.

Not going to answer anymore on this thread as it is pointless, people don't want to see the obvious, defending something that is undeniable.

Anyway this thread is pointless as warlock aura are going to disappear if they do reaper right.

Rip god of dps.

Let me give you the usual answers.

1 - Learn to play: clearly it is your fault, you suck at playing monks.

2 - Learn to build: your monk is gimp, monks are better than warlocks.

3 - Play a henshin: its so good, 1 shot everything with incinerating wave.

4 - Don't group with warlocks

5 - Don't play a monk: seriously, you want everything to be top DPS or you quit?

6 - Play solo

You can /roll 1d6 on these answers.

[Forzah]

The real direct contradiction will be when the forums stop demanding nerfs declaring the current warlock nerf a victory, all the while people will be building for more DPS than they were before. This will directly contradict the false claim that "warlock killing everything before I get there ruins my fun" - because cha warlock will be killing faster than it was before when it was a con warlock.

You assume a position of an apparently non-existing group of people on the forums and then say they are in contradiction. Why is it relevant to repeat that every few posts and what does the person you quoted (who is not part of that group) have to do with it? Can you even point out a single person in this thread who is part of that group?

Why not simply state your opinion directly rather than indirectly through other persons that aren't here? Of course, when there is a contradiction in the posts of the actual person you quote, feel free to point that out!