U33 Unarmed Monks - Any Success Stories ?

[DrawingGuy]

All cleaves perform the same as TWF (aka are trash) for Handwraps now with some being even worse... Whirlwind Attack is the only cleave that works if albiet at a weaker level than what it used to be. The feat tax is extremely heavy, but having an AOE is useful.

Though, LavidDynch, nice numbers. While I would usually reserve the SA effort for a shuri build, it definitely works on handwraps (or TWF) as well. Though I'm not seeing Vorpal Strikes on your hotbars... did you give that up in favor of PA/Rogue PL? A permanent bypass that would not otherwise be available on the weapon type I think would be silly to give up. Also while it's true that you can eek STR higher than DEX, DEX has the synergy with your Hide skill along with also providing Reflex and AC. Add in freeing up the STR points to put into WIS to help your moves land or INT for KTA, and you should be close to the same damage level with utility gained. Though without seeing a full build breakdown, can't get that exact with suggestions for improvements.

[LavidDynch]

All cleaves perform the same as TWF (aka are trash) for Handwraps now with some being even worse... Whirlwind Attack is the only cleave that works if albiet at a weaker level than what it used to be. The feat tax is extremely heavy, but having an AOE is useful.

Though, LavidDynch, nice numbers. While I would usually reserve the SA effort for a shuri build, it definitely works on handwraps (or TWF) as well. Though I'm not seeing Vorpal Strikes on your hotbars... did you give that up in favor of PA/Rogue PL? A permanent bypass that would not otherwise be available on the weapon type I think would be silly to give up. Also while it's true that you can eek STR higher than DEX, DEX has the synergy with your Hide skill along with also providing Reflex and AC. Add in freeing up the STR points to put into WIS to help your moves land or INT for KTA, and you should be close to the same damage level with utility gained. Though without seeing a full build breakdown, can't get that exact with suggestions for improvements.

Whirlwind wrap is the best cleave in the game. Period.

Well spotted, and good input. I agree Dex is probably better than Strenght but I'm just stupid and stubborn. The build in the first vid was the result of poor planing and a year hiatus... I simply lacked the base requirements for Vorpal Strikes by 1 point (23-Wis).. Not so sure regarding the DPS value of Vorpal Strikes, after all it is a 5 non-scaling(?) dmg / hit... ...With that said, having your fists do slash-dmg could potentially be huge and adds versatility. I will pick it up on my 12M/8ftr build.

[Arlathen]

I lost my wife, kids and job; running slavers and cannith crunching the leftover...

I'm sure there are people in this thread who has higher numbers than that, but:
20 monk for max MP
Human for the double actionboost -- haste + dmg for bosses, DMG + DMG in Slaver's, if your lucky your Whirlwind-strike will hit something before it's blasted away by the better kind....
Pastlife Rogue (great for bosses and portals!)
Max Hide skill, max SA gear. max strenght, and everything else associated with base dmg.
Unbalancing Strike -- "Saves" one item slot compared to a Scion-ranger, makes mobs vulnerable to SA.
I don't fully understand Jade Strike but I love the ability.

Gear is standard Power Gamer Light. I got full completionist and such but you don't really need that these days -- but it adds up.

I'll probably post more monk vids in the near future.

Edit: Max dps wraps would probably be a 12mnk/6ftr/2x (or more ftr) would probably be a much better monk..

Not good enough, Mr.Mackson. Full build please, so us mere mortals can aspire to 1K damage per hit NON-CRIT.

Thanks-in-advance

[Hamagawi]

I lost my wife, kids and job; running slavers and cannith crunching the leftover...

I'm sure there are people in this thread who has higher numbers than that, but:
20 monk for max MP
Human for the double actionboost -- haste + dmg for bosses, DMG + DMG in Slaver's, if your lucky your Whirlwind-strike will hit something before it's blasted away by the better kind....
Pastlife Rogue (great for bosses and portals!)
Max Hide skill, max SA gear. max strenght, and everything else associated with base dmg.
Unbalancing Strike -- "Saves" one item slot compared to a Scion-ranger, makes mobs vulnerable to SA.
I don't fully understand Jade Strike but I love the ability.

Gear is standard Power Gamer Light. I got full completionist and such but you don't really need that these days -- but it adds up.

I'll probably post more monk vids in the near future.

Edit: Max dps wraps would probably be a 12mnk/6ftr/2x (or more ftr) would probably be a much better monk..

I'm also curious about more details of your build but even more curious about the assertion that 12mnk/6ftr/2x or 12mnk/8ftr would be superior dps, I'm wondering whats the math on this? possibly I'm missing something but it seems that while there are defensive or tactics benefits to splashing there isn't enough damage to be made up. I'm looking at:
Pure Monk:
35 MP
1d6 extra base dice

Splash:
3-4 extra feats, access to fighter or other tree enhancements

Likely 2 of those feats are weapon focus and weapon specialization which is +1 hit, +2 dmg and +4 MP so at that point pure is up 31 MP and 1.5 dmg. are the extra 1-2 feats and enhancements so much better than the shintao tree that it makes up for that? Messing around with the character planner I can't seem to find a setup that seems superior. Anything that seems like it could challenge pure monk just seems like it has to just give up on tactics entirely, which at least to me is a core aspect of playing a monk. I'm playing a 12ftr/8mnk at the moment for etr grinding which gains power surge at the cost of imp evasion and .5 base dice as while leveling most stuff dies fast enough that tactics aren't particularly relevant and for dps that seems strictly superior to 12mnk/8ftr

[LavidDynch]

I'm also curious about more details of your build but even more curious about the assertion that 12mnk/6ftr/2x or 12mnk/8ftr would be superior dps, I'm wondering whats the math on this? possibly I'm missing something but it seems that while there are defensive or tactics benefits to splashing there isn't enough damage to be made up. I'm looking at:
Pure Monk:
35 MP
1d6 extra base dice

Splash:
3-4 extra feats, access to fighter or other tree enhancements

Likely 2 of those feats are weapon focus and weapon specialization which is +1 hit, +2 dmg and +4 MP so at that point pure is up 31 MP and 1.5 dmg. are the extra 1-2 feats and enhancements so much better than the shintao tree that it makes up for that? Messing around with the character planner I can't seem to find a setup that seems superior. Anything that seems like it could challenge pure monk just seems like it has to just give up on tactics entirely, which at least to me is a core aspect of playing a monk. I'm playing a 12ftr/8mnk at the moment for etr grinding which gains power surge at the cost of imp evasion and .5 base dice as while leveling most stuff dies fast enough that tactics aren't particularly relevant and for dps that seems strictly superior to 12mnk/8ftr

I haven't done all the math or scenarios. I'm shooting a bit from the hip with these numbers and this is basicly what I have written down on a scrap of paper... Warning: the english and the semantics isn't strong in this one.

kensai VS monk tree ~ +3.5 base dmg (when all is accounted) + 2 base dmg from specialization + 6mp from the actual feats. Kensai got -5 mp when not using opportunity strike BUT +5% MP (for a total of +40MP) when in use.

+3 Action boosts is huge. (I will not spec anything into combat tactics in FTR tree, my tactics will still hit 100+)

FTR may spec +25 PRR - stance, they can with ease pick up Epic PRR too, which my pure monk couldn't afford or simply couldn't do. (+35 PRR!)

They have 2 extra feats to customize the monk to the current content...

Downside:
- Lower base HAMP
- No Silver and Cold Iron (meh!)

[Hamagawi]

I haven't done all the math or scenarios. I'm shooting a bit from the hip with these numbers and this is basicly what I have written down on a scrap of paper... Warning: the english and the semantics isn't strong in this one.

kensai VS monk tree ~ +3.5 base dmg (when all is accounted) + 2 base dmg from specialization + 6mp from the actual feats. Kensai got -5 mp when not using opportunity strike BUT +5% MP (for a total of +40MP) when in use.

+3 Action boosts is huge. (I will not spec anything into combat tactics in FTR tree, my tactics will still hit 100+)

FTR may spec +25 PRR - stance, they can with ease pick up Epic PRR too, which my pure monk couldn't afford or simply couldn't do. (+35 PRR!)

They have 2 extra feats to customize the monk to the current content...

Downside:
- Lower base HAMP
- No Silver and Cold Iron (meh!)

You seem to be forgetting the teir 5 shintao enhancements, empty hand mastery grants +1 critical threat range over kensei (kensei gets +1 multiplier in strike with no thought but the threat range on keen edge does not work on handwraps, i tested it recently post U33). So while I mentioned before that fighter gets definite survival benefits largely due to the extra prr and I'll grant you +3 action boosts is indeed extremely useful I think you have to add 1 less critical threat range, no meditation of war or kukan-do to the downsides. It seems to me that doing x3 damage 5% of the time and going from 90% to 100% off hand swings (assuming air stance which is what I almost exclusively run in recently) is worth more than a couple base damage and 11 MP in the situations where you can maintain opportunity strike (which is often but not all the time). Perhaps the extra action boosts is enough to balance things out but it seems that at best taking fighter levels trades tactics for survival, which may be a somewhat subjective decision.

[LavidDynch]

You seem to be forgetting the teir 5 shintao enhancements, empty hand mastery grants +1 critical threat range over kensei (kensei gets +1 multiplier in strike with no thought but the threat range on keen edge does not work on handwraps, i tested it recently post U33). So while I mentioned before that fighter gets definite survival benefits largely due to the extra prr and I'll grant you +3 action boosts is indeed extremely useful I think you have to add 1 less critical threat range, no meditation of war or kukan-do to the downsides. It seems to me that doing x3 damage 5% of the time and going from 90% to 100% off hand swings (assuming air stance which is what I almost exclusively run in recently) is worth more than a couple base damage and 11 MP in the situations where you can maintain opportunity strike (which is often but not all the time). Perhaps the extra action boosts is enough to balance things out but it seems that at best taking fighter levels trades tactics for survival, which may be a somewhat subjective decision.

**** it. Should have tested this myself knowing the history of this game (can confirm your tests).

Nah, wrapmonks are locked in the crappy Shin-Tao tree then til they fix this (not exactly holding my breath).

Good thing you posted and thanks for that! now I have to find a way out 7mnk/4ftr... heart +1 or +4 lol...

[GeoffWatson]

The reduced hit box is extremely annoying. You can't hit anything that's moving away from you at all, and using special moves like Stunning Fist is frustrating as I usually waste them by using them too soon.
Attacking while sneaking is impossible; it's as if you have no hit box at all. You can't even hit stationary targets like boxes.

[DrawingGuy]

Lavid, have you thought about going 8 Rogue? That gives you a 50% dodge clicky which may be a huge deal in Reaper mode and makes a good kitten button so you can get a heal off as you should be able to break 100% dodge chance with it. In addition you would gain:

- 4d6 SA damage from Rogue levels (you would have 10d6 SA + flat bonuses with my suggestions)
- Improved Uncanny Dodge
- Trapping
- Assassin's trick if you go into the tree (Unbalancing Strike qualifies you for SA when you have aggro, and trick lowers fort and allows SA damage on undead/immune mobs)


A quick breakdown of how I would spend the AP
- 13 AP into Assassin's for 3 tiers of SA and Assassin's Trick
- 34 AP into Shintao (empty hand and begets along with all bypasses)
- 13 AP into Ninja Spy (3 tiers of SA and Shadow Veil)
- 11 AP into Henshin (for cores of course)
- 1 AP into Human for damage boost

And here you can choose one:
- 8 AP into Thief-Acrobat for haste boost, sly flourish (2 tiers), and 8% move speed (putting you within 2% of a pure monk)
- 7 AP into Harper for KtA + 1 AP into Ninja Spy for 3rd tier of Agility. KtA lasting 1 minute makes it line up with Shadow Veil and Tenser scrolls.

[Tilomere]

The reduced hit box is extremely annoying.

You could just spend 1 feat on khopesh and 1 on leather armor, and twf with them in leather armor for evasion. Take 85 MP and 60 HAMP/+SP from cores.

[boredman]

For me there is little point of going with handwraps, except for tactics with stunning fist and kukan do mainly with sense of weakness twisted and combat brute for trash clearing, also with whirlwind attack for aoe dmg. That said the fighter splash or based comes handy with the extra feats and tactics dc, once you get dire charge those tactics lose some appeal but still can be useful since their stun lasts a bit more. Saying that, I prefer to sacrifice dps to be more reliable at tactics and also more tough to stand in a group of mobs to dire charge and ww, cleave, etc. Having some shuriken single target damage for LE sorjeck or enemies like that would be a plus as well.

So the fighter feats seems more handy to me, 12 fighter base, then only need 5 monk for shintao or 6 monk for shadow veil. so something like 12 fighter/ 5monk /3 ranger (think that 10% off hand chance is working now with handwraps) or 12 fighter/6 monk/2 rogue (traps) or pally (saves and bf).
The extra tactics from fighter make you easier to get scion of ethereal for sa dmg sacrificing +4 dc from astral plane.

If you get bored of moderate boss damage can easy etr into a khopesh dps fighter without having to tr. About stats how about intelligence based instead dexterity, lose some ac but with insightful reflexes get the reflex saves with better damage and tactics from know the angles (although not sure if ninja spy cores are overriding int stat with dex, hope not)

[LavidDynch]

The reduced hit box is extremely annoying. You can't hit anything that's moving away from you at all, and using special moves like Stunning Fist is frustrating as I usually waste them by using them too soon.
Attacking while sneaking is impossible; it's as if you have no hit box at all. You can't even hit stationary targets like boxes.

I tried one of those Maul-silvanus build.. and I was just as annoyed of the 'not hitting moving mobs' as I am on my monk.

[DrawingGuy]

I tried one of those Maul-silvanus build.. and I was just as annoyed of the 'not hitting moving mobs' as I am on my monk.

I currently have a Maul-silvanus build and have zero issue hitting moving mobs....Even if you're having positioning issues, there are 4 cleaves at your disposal to get past that. I just hope they fix the handwrap (and TWF in general) range soon so I can hit moving mobs again. The ability to run up and quickly CC a mob that is chasing a squishy in party was a part of how I played my monk (as I give up some of my DPS potential for party support/utility), and not being able to do that anymore is very frustrating.

[LavidDynch]

I currently have a Maul-silvanus build and have zero issue hitting moving mobs....Even if you're having positioning issues, there are 4 cleaves at your disposal to get past that. I just hope they fix the handwrap (and TWF in general) range soon so I can hit moving mobs again. The ability to run up and quickly CC a mob that is chasing a squishy in party was a part of how I played my monk (as I give up some of my DPS potential for party support/utility), and not being able to do that anymore is very frustrating.

We must play on different servers, on Ghallanda everything is nerve venomed, held, frozen or stunned. Every one and their dog plays ranged that are able to do this... As melee I run behind the casters for best effect

But yeah, I agree very annoying, imagine if ranged could not hit moving targets... raaaawr.

[Kebtid]

I currently have a Maul-silvanus build and have zero issue hitting moving mobs....Even if you're having positioning issues, there are 4 cleaves at your disposal to get past that. I just hope they fix the handwrap (and TWF in general) range soon so I can hit moving mobs again. The ability to run up and quickly CC a mob that is chasing a squishy in party was a part of how I played my monk (as I give up some of my DPS potential for party support/utility), and not being able to do that anymore is very frustrating.

kukan do helps to chase that 1 mob that is after your squishie friend


But yes, its extremely annoying to play as it is, borderline frustrating when you have ranged whatever in party

[moo_cow]

Edit: Max dps wraps would probably be a 12mnk/6ftr/2x (or more ftr) would probably be a much better monk..

Explain?

I don't see that coming close to best wraps dps by a long shot.

You lose 35 melee power, 10% off hand doublestrike, +1 [w].

You gain 20 melee power. ? (which makes you spend so many Ap that you lose another 10-20 melee power from henshin)

Tier 5 kensai +1 threat range doesn't stack with shintao.

So what do you really gain?

[Kebtid]

Explain?

I don't see that coming close to best wraps dps by a long shot.

You lose 35 melee power, 10% off hand doublestrike, +1 [w].

You gain 20 melee power. ? (which makes you spend so many Ap that you lose another 10-20 melee power from henshin)

Tier 5 kensai +1 threat range doesn't stack with shintao.

So what do you really gain?

Moo, did you drop ww on your build?
Since its only 4 hits now, im considering to drop it which leaves me with aoe issue (with the hit box issue), but single target pulls so much ahead with feats i gain by droping it.
Was also considering to test a 13 monk 6 ranger 1 wiz (because deep gnome life) with focus on dod to see how it interacts with new shintao strikes, if its possible to tojade 5 enemies or stun fist at once, would solve my aoe issue (but i lose monk tier 5s for that).
Nice thing about dod is that you can proc ballanced on every target as well.


Also i can confirm that kta works with all jade strikes. It actually works with almost everything, what im using is jade/tomb/smite/dismis strike/unbalance strike and it works for all of those.
(can post screenie as proof if needed).
And as last, can someone tell me how animations for lay waste and momentum have been coded?
Since im on a max dex/wisdom/int build for test purposes i cant get power attack til after etr to next test idea

[Hamagawi]

Explain?

I don't see that coming close to best wraps dps by a long shot.

You lose 35 melee power, 10% off hand doublestrike, +1 [w].

You gain 20 melee power. ? (which makes you spend so many Ap that you lose another 10-20 melee power from henshin)

Tier 5 kensai +1 threat range doesn't stack with shintao.

So what do you really gain?

Gotta keep reading the posts, I already discussed this with him, he was unaware that keen edge does not work properly with wraps, and now agrees that shintao pulls ahead.

[moo_cow]

Gotta keep reading the posts, I already discussed this with him, he was unaware that keen edge does not work properly with wraps, and now agrees that shintao pulls ahead.

Even if it did stack it would be less dps than pure. Thanks for the heads up though I see the above post now.

[LavidDynch]

Since most monk-players are gathered in this thread, would be nice to see some vids of specs, gear etc + ingame play. Can PM if you don't want it to be public.

My own 20 monk right now has only 11 points in HeM (I think my first build was 31!), and still I feel like a beast in both shroud and slavers... (currently at 200MP with blitz)