Handwraps as weapons now break with ooze damage

[dunklezhan]

>A bunch of fair comparisons<

The things that make some mobs challenging are exactly these reasons. They sometimes pull you from your most optimal/comfortable methods & force you to use different tactics/abilities you'd never even know about (much less use) otherwise. This keeps combat interesting & dangerous. Yet people continue to only want Easy buttons.

Well.. its not so much that they (I) want easy buttons in this case. I don't think anyone is arguing about the fact that for lore purposes it does make sense. I'm very uneasy with myself that I'm even thinking it would be ok to make exceptions. Its like I'm having an alignment change or something, I just hope I don't get too much of an XP debt...

Anyway. It's that I don't understand why after however many years it is (pre F2P for sure so at least 7 years) it was decided this needed to happen now. It's not like 'handwraps take no damage from oozes' ever appeared on the KI list, is it? There was no great outcry (from anyone, monk player or otherwise) calling for Handwraps to be nerfed because of it.

This is not Druid Wolf fighting style exploiting (yes it bloody well is exploiting - they've said its not WAI) that we're talking about here, there is no quest made super easy by handwraps being immune to wear, or even made particularly much harder by the change - it's effectively just a backpack, gear and/or DPS tax (on a class that does not need a melee DPS nerf in any way).

Yes it's a backpack and gear tax every other melee has to pay, sure - but they've always had to pay it and it was an understood benefit of handwraps. My question to the devs really hasn't changed - why now? Why is this a desirable gameplay change? In what way, if any, does this bring more 'fun'?

I'm not saying it doesn't fit with lore, and I'm not saying its a change that shouldn't happen - I'm asking why it needs to. What was wrong with at least aiming for a like for like change on this particular aspect of wraps?

It's also not a showstopper and it's not going to stop me playing my monk but unfortunately the monk pass in general hasn't even piqued my interest enough to log on and even try my monk again yet, because I have always played a dex based wind melee monk... there's basically nothing for me at all in the pass, that kind of build is a dead build as far as I can tell, and I don't understand why that needs to be the case either. I need to motivate myself to TR him to a Str build, clearly. The ooze thing is just another very minor thing that puts me off, not "the" thing.

That makes neither the questions nor the concomitant suggestions in this thread, somehow in-valid.

[Boneshank]

Yes it's a backpack and gear tax every other melee has to pay, sure - but they've always had to pay it and it was an understood benefit of handwraps. My question to the devs really hasn't changed - why now? Why is this a desirable gameplay change? In what way, if any, does this bring more 'fun'?

It's a tradeoff. Monks are finally getting their handwraps treated as weapons, giving them the numerous benefits of that, but along with that change comes the downside where the new 'weapons' now exist in the same world as the others, and have to play by the same rules.

You can't have your cake & eat it too. They would then have to rename the class to Warlock.

[Amundir]

If handwraps are going to now be taking damage for fighting oozes, then I want to see players hit with the negative aspect of Vicious when they fight unarmed entirely.

[dunklezhan]

You can't have your cake & eat it too. They would then have to rename the class to Warlock.

Awesome. That's genius. +1 for you!
You're right. But it's still an arse of a thing.
One thought i had was: everbright augments.

As has been suggested before (i found out when i searched out of curiosity prior to posting my thoughts here in an effort to continue to be constructive about this), although interestingly in the context of how to give people the same advantage as monk had. It's even more of a good idea now. (props to EllisDee)

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ea-Everbright?

[Andoen]

for the short term- grab a quarter staff for oozes...

Playing a mystic for a few years, let me tell you how "well" wood survives against a creature of digestive acid.... <cue monk screaming in the background as oozes digest them from the outside-in>

[Boneshank]

One thought i had was: everbright augments.

Solid idea.

[LrdSlvrhnd]

Awesome. That's genius. +1 for you!
You're right. But it's still an arse of a thing.
One thought i had was: everbright augments.

As has been suggested before (i found out when i searched out of curiosity prior to posting my thoughts here in an effort to continue to be constructive about this), although interestingly in the context of how to give people the same advantage as monk had. It's even more of a good idea now. (props to EllisDee)

https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...ea-Everbright?

I'd settle for lootgen glass/blueshine weapons, just like we get silver and adamantine and byeshk weapons. Though definitely blueshine wraps and not glass *g* Or "Coated Handwraps" that "have been treated to be more resistant to an ooze's digestive acids", that can then be deconned and crafted on.

[Zachski]

It seems like the intended solution is for monks to unwrap their hands before punching oozes.

If this was a tabletop game, they could switch to kicking instead of punching (though in reality, their boots would be taking damage from this too)

Eh, I think it was a bad move to do this *without* offering a wider selection of glass weaponry for monks, but then I'm one of those unlucky gits who can run that one dungeon ten times, get the optional to spawn three times, and never get a single Muckbane.

[minorpenthes]

Handwraps are now vulnerable to ooze damage, indeed. This is working as intended.

Okay, that is fine, I can actually accept that.

This, however, I find rather odd:

Today, I was going through some of my mules, and less played characters, looking to create space, and I found something strange. On numerous occasions, they had damaged handwraps in their inventories, including cases where I knew they had never, ever used them (case in point was one holding on to a pair of Scorching Wraps, which bind to character upon equip- they were in his inventory, well worn, and just to check to see if I had ever used them, I went to put them on him, and got the "Do You Want to Equip them, and have them BTC?" message, implying that he had NEVER used them). In many cases, these characters live in the bank.

So why are their handwraps damaged, in so many cases? (I have counted 5 characters so far, but intend to really start looking carefully.)

As an update, those scorching wraps, upon being repaired, became permanently damaged, without having ever been equipped.

What is going on here? And is this breakage (when they have never been used, or even been exposed to a sewer in a backpack) really Working As Intended?

[gwonbush]

Okay, that is fine, I can actually accept that.

This, however, I find rather odd:

Today, I was going through some of my mules, and less played characters, looking to create space, and I found something strange. On numerous occasions, they had damaged handwraps in their inventories, including cases where I knew they had never, ever used them (case in point was one holding on to a pair of Scorching Wraps, which bind to character upon equip- they were in his inventory, well worn, and just to check to see if I had ever used them, I went to put them on him, and got the "Do You Want to Equip them, and have them BTC?" message, implying that he had NEVER used them). In many cases, these characters live in the bank.

So why are their handwraps damaged, in so many cases? (I have counted 5 characters so far, but intend to really start looking carefully.)

As an update, those scorching wraps, upon being repaired, became permanently damaged, without having ever been equipped.

What is going on here? And is this breakage (when they have never been used, or even been exposed to a sewer in a backpack) really Working As Intended?

As a counter to handwraps now taking damage, the hardness and durability of all handwraps has been massively increased. This came into effect as merely an increase in their max durability, so all wraps were "damaged" in the process. Even with permanent damage, they all have significantly more durability than before the update (though infinitely less in practical use unless you find yourself dying constantly).

[minorpenthes]

As a counter to handwraps now taking damage, the hardness and durability of all handwraps has been massively increased. This came into effect as merely an increase in their max durability, so all wraps were "damaged" in the process. Even with permanent damage, they all have significantly more durability than before the update (though infinitely less in practical use unless you find yourself dying constantly).

OK, I can understand the mechanic. I guess.

I just find it a bit annoying that an item that is not incredibly common, that I was saving for the right character is now broken even before it is ever equipped. It is not a huge deal, but it just bothers me, somehow.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Regardless of whether or not this is a good change...

Can't Monks simply un-equip handwraps and attack with their fists?
....and still do a lot of damage?

[vampiregoat69]

Handwraps are now vulnerable to ooze damage, indeed. This is working as intended.

here we go again they fix a class and nerf the handwraps RIGHT after I TR now I can't hit anything without my wraps breaking in 2-3 hits. YEAH go monks, now fighters will not be able to melee soon and casters are not allowed spells is next

[Uska]

Handwraps are now vulnerable to ooze damage, indeed. This is working as intended.

Just one more nail in the coffin of bad ideas

[FranOhmsford]

Handwraps are now vulnerable to ooze damage, indeed. This is working as intended.

So in effect a massive nerf to pure monks!

Thanks Devs, Thanks a Bunch!

[FranOhmsford]

It's a tradeoff. Monks are finally getting their handwraps treated as weapons, giving them the numerous benefits of that, but along with that change comes the downside where the new 'weapons' now exist in the same world as the others, and have to play by the same rules.

You can't have your cake & eat it too. They would then have to rename the class to Warlock.

WHAT BENEFITS!?!

I can't think of ONE!

The Changes to Henshin Mystic do not count! They have nothing to do with Handwraps now being Weapons and are a completely separate change!



I refuse to log my Monk on until the Devs patch this update and depending on fixes maybe even longer! Too much BROKEN!

[dunklezhan]

Regardless of whether or not this is a good change...

Can't Monks simply un-equip handwraps and attack with their fists?
....and still do a lot of damage?

Actually... no.

At least, not as I understand it.

I haven't fully grasped how the new HW mechanics work. Still quite confused trying to work out the use cases, it's nearly as bad as Druid animal forms strangeness (I have claws and teeth but I do bludgeoning... que?). However, I think it goes like this:

Handwraps now do 1d6, 2d6, 3d6 etc as their ML goes up, just like other weapons have more +W with a higher ML. Monks do still get their +0.5W at various level intervals, but it means that taking your wraps off loses you a bunch of +W in addition to whatever effects you happened to have on the wraps. So you definitely won't do 'a lot' of damage. On a monk splash it's even worse, unless they've actually picked up the unarmed combat feats with their feat slots from other classes, but I don't play those so I don't really know how they work.

Also, most oozes are resistant or outright immune to most elemental strikes and lightning strikes actually split many oozes up - so you really are losing a lot of DPS options here.

You are, of course, still better off than anyone else who has to go unarmed if they don't have a specialist weapon.

I think someone said it best earlier: I think it was wrong to do this without throwing a bone at the same time. A bigger bone than 'double your durability, which you have to spend plat to 'activate' and risk permanent damage' (because whilst the durability doubled, you have to go get them repaired to actually get all that durability first).

Shintao has all the weapon metal types in it, they could've put a core, or a normal enhancement in there which effectively makes your attacks 'blueshine' or 'everbright' or something. They could have introduced a new stone of change recipe for heaven's sake, anyone remember those?

Unfortunately, I think the answers are:

1. 'Cannith Craft Everbright handwraps just like everyone else makes everbright weapons, or go home'.
2. Bind all your handwraps via Stone Of Change, so that you at least don't take permanent damage
3. take your wraps off to fight oozes, taking a really significant DPS hit, especially if trying to cleave/whirlwind/whatever to hit non-oozes at the same time (this is not really any different to other melee classes having to switch to other weapons, the issue is that monks don't have any options other than cannith crafting to get said weapons).

I don't think either is a particularly satisfactory answer, but I think that's what the devs intend.

/Sigh. We've been saying for ages to watch the powercreep. This is the result I think. On this particular issue (vs Oozes) it looks like they've decided to level the playing field down not up.

I think the reason it's annoyed people is that we've we've waited so long for a monk/handwrap pass because they've been so problematic for so long... that no-one was expecting any kind of nerf!

But that's what this is: its a handwrap pass with a few tweaks to the trees. It's not really a full monk pass. At least it doesn't feel like one. This is likely because we got a partial pass when they redid all the ranged stuff a year ago. I don't know if that was a nerf or not for monks (it certainly took a lot of the fun out of my pure AA ranger), I've never played a ranged monk and taking 10K stars to use on anything but a shuriken build just seems like horrendous cheese to me, I can't bring myself to do it.





TL; DR -

*Double durability is not enough given the attack speed of monks

*The new HW mechanics mean taking off your wraps vs oozes is viable but likely a huge DPS loss.

*Everbright is not a random loot property, so you have to craft them but it's really quite a high level recipe, using NEW L21-25 collectibles so folk won't have a lot, or possibly any, of these yet.

*there are no named handwraps which allow ooze beating.

*Monks cannot use the muckbane/muckdoom without becoming uncentered and losing a bunch of their other abilities and since Oozes are often part of a larger pack of mobs, this could be essentially a death sentence (-AC, -stance benefits, no ki gain, -movement speed, and all monk toggles switch off and have to be reactivated when you do switch back to HW).

*Everbright augments do not exist so you cannot slot it

*Stone of Change offers only the option to not take permanent damage by binding.

[JOTMON]

The least they could have done is added a couple static spots to get everbright named handwraps.. start with Korthos..

I would have expected at the bare minimum while they were tabling this handwrap change that consideration would have been made to make sure to rework a quest or two across the levels somewhere to drop named Ooze beater wraps...
or even an alter change to convert muckbane/muckdoom into wraps...

[dunklezhan]

The least they could have done is added a couple static spots to get everbright named handwraps.. start with Korthos..

I would have expected at the bare minimum while they were tabling this handwrap change that consideration would have been made to make sure to rework a quest or two across the levels somewhere to drop named Ooze beater wraps...
or even an alter change to convert muckbane/muckdoom into wraps...

Korthos, slavers, gnomework.that would have covered it.

Ah well. Hopefully in future

[JOTMON]

Handwraps are now vulnerable to ooze damage, indeed. This is working as intended.

So why no mention of this or the nerfed melee to hit range with handwraps equipped in the Release notes?
https://www.ddo.com/en/update-33-release-notes

What else was changed that was excluded from the release notes...