Casters (and Divines)' roles in the new Reaper mode (video inside)

[Qezuzu]

I did no hyporbelic post. This thread is just sharing thoughts. You can't do that dps math, because we have a mana pool that needs to be devoted to CC 24/7 in Reaper. Whatever anyway, I am embracing the one trick pony that Severlin wants. I can't be bothered to argue it anymore honestly, as I'm not changing his mind.

I still think you're being hyperbolic.

You can't conceive of a situation where you'd have a second caster who could do all the CC'ing? You can't find the time to fire off cheap Energy Bursts and SLA's? You can't work with teammates to group mobs up in such a way that they're easier to CC?

What is it that you want? Do you want spell damage to not be downscaled? Or just downscaled less? Do you think CC shouldn't be a requirement in Reaper?

[EllisDee37]

hey! Where does that come from?

I gimped him with a pretty deep cleric splash. (12/8) Just 1 cleric level would give divine might, but I wanted FoM+DW+Cure Critical. (I then further gimped him by spending 22 AP in warpriest for ameliorating strike, which I just lurve.)

[Wizza]

I still think you're being hyperbolic.

You can't conceive of a situation where you'd have a second caster who could do all the CC'ing? You can't find the time to fire off cheap Energy Bursts and SLA's? You can't work with teammates to group mobs up in such a way that they're easier to CC?

What is it that you want? Do you want spell damage to not be downscaled? Or just downscaled less? Do you think CC shouldn't be a requirement in Reaper?

As I said, I actually don't really care anymore how this turns out to be, whether I do 10 or 10000 damage. I don't like the way they are doing it, with downscaled damage, but I'm not changing their minds. So they get a "whatever" from me. I'll be a CC-bot, fire slas and call it a day.

[Mr_Helmet]

Ill ask u same question have u ever played a caster cleric or fvs

yes, yes, and yes.

in end game les not so much fun these days is it

My Divine's currently in TR-hell, but my arcane is awesome these days in end-game and a ton of fun to play. It's an absolute blast, as much fun as my melees.

[2pc2]

I don't like the way they are doing it, with downscaled damage, but I'm not changing their minds. So they get a "whatever" from me. I'll be a CC-bot, fire slas and call it a day.

It's ok 10 skulls is not meant for everyone, there are 10 dificutlies to pick up the one that fits better with your playstyle, build or skill. No one forces you into playing a hold-bot in 10 skulls if you don't like the mechanics. In dificulty settings of 5 skulls and lower you are probably not locked into 1 trick pony and can do it all CC, DPS, Tank and even solo/shortman quests. But on the max dificulty setting heavy specced builds will always do better it's the nature of such content, can't be done much about it unless you make such content trivial. Heavy specced roles and teamwork will always be the way to go if we want the content to be really challenging, if not it will be legendary elite 2.0 (aka soloed in day 1)

[Wizza]

It's ok 10 skulls is not meant for everyone

10 Skulls isn't meant for anyone at the moment.

[Enoach]

Wizza I'm not sure why you think casters are going to be relegated to being CC-Bots?

Sure everyone's damage is reduced. I can see the first thing people start looking at is SP/DMG ratio. Now you could be thinking this may be like when Epic content was first brought in with Epic Ward and Instant Kill abilities no longer worked (It was also the death of debuffs).

But lets consider that we also have things now that we didn't have during that time.

1. SLA's - Cheap spell cost, no additional cost for Meta's and even an expansion on Caster Levels
2. Epic Destinies
3. Gear - Spell Power/Critical Damage
4. Change in Feats with Spell Power and Critical Damage

Soloing the highest difficulties should be on the border of nearly impossible and nutty to even try. But it should be possible with a group working together synergistically much like a good Pickup-Group down at the park for a game of hoops. It should not be something 6 soloests try to complete in the same instance.

Next, I think a difficulty like this will also bring back more tactical melee. Feats like Stun, Trip and Sunder will mean something and Feats like SAP and Feint abilities will also be seen as good options.

Even as a wizard who primarily uses spells I still have non-SP options to continue to do damage. Now mind you my wizard was built for DC casting, my cleric for melee and my Warlock for nuking with DC as an option.

There is going to be people on all sides of this, some will love it, some will ignore it and some will not like it. All will have their reasons. But at this time I don't think Divines or Arcanes are going to be limited to only doing CC and Healing except where the player pigeons themselves to that role.

[Wizza]

snip

That's cool We will see when Reaper hits Live.

[Vanhooger]

I see Wizza point here. I do love caster and I mainly play them over anything else.

I get that reaper will not be designed to solo, so we can't complain about sp dumping if you try to do a quest alone and fail, but what I don't want to happen is relegating casters to CC only.

Old fashion caster need sp to be useful and lowering they're damage (while mobs hp still the same) to the same point as melee and ranged it seems a bit too much as blue bar is really all it matters. If you run out of sp just trying to nuke few mob you're useless till next shrine.

As well we need a spell pass as 80% of spell are beyond useless even in normal Epic content.

Warlock can do infinite damage while using sp for cc, but that's not the case of wizard, druid. sorcerer, cleric, fvs, and artificer caster.

I do get that Aoe damage need to be toned down but I wouldn't nerf too much single target dps, for blue bars.

[2pc2]

I see Wizza point here. I do love caster and I mainly play them over anything else.

I get that reaper will not be designed to solo, so we can't complain about sp dumping if you try to do a quest alone and fail, but what I don't want to happen is relegating casters to CC only.

Old fashion caster need sp to be useful and lowering they're damage (while mobs hp still the same) to the same point as melee and ranged it seems a bit too much as blue bar is really all it matters. If you run out of sp just trying to nuke few mob you're useless till next shrine.

As well we need a spell pass as 80% of spell are beyond useless even in normal Epic content.

Warlock can do infinite damage while using sp for cc, but that's not the case of wizard, druid. sorcerer, cleric, fvs, and artificer caster.

I do get that Aoe damage need to be toned down but I wouldn't nerf too much single target dps, for blue bars.

No one forces casters to be CC only. If you are grouped with another caster who's doing most of the CC what prevents you from using all your sp to nuke and play the DPS role?

Casters (read wiz/sorc) already have the best CC tools in game, no other class can come even close. If they allowed them to do more dps than anyone or they didn't gimp their dps as everyone else got it gimped what do you think it will be the end result? What would prevent an uber caster with lots of sp pots to solo stuff even on the max dificulty setting? Why would anyone want a non caster dps in his party with his limitated CC and survavility when you can have uber casters with CC and DPS who don't need to go in mob range to do their part?

About warlocks... I think the class itself is a big mistake but we are not going to change that. Sure they can use their sp to CC while blasting for damage but is it much different from a sorc who uses his sp to CC and cheap (almost free) SLAS for damage? You never run completly out of sp whith magical training... an if you do sp pots can fix that, they drop in game or can be bought from store.

[Altamedes]

There is going to be people on all sides of this, some will love it, some will ignore it and some will not like it. All will have their reasons. But at this time I don't think Divines or Arcanes are going to be limited to only doing CC and Healing except where the player pigeons themselves to that role.

Great point, as it really does best describe the proposed Reaper setting. What complicates the discussions on reaper mechanics is this: even before preliminary Reaper came out on Lammania, there was never agreement from players about what they wanted a higher difficulty to look like. Some wanted it to be ambiguously "harder" while others wanted it to be so difficult it wouldn't be defeated for 6 months. Now that we have an alpha state, I see the same responses. Reading through the various threads in this sub-forum, you've got people calling for it to be made more difficult than it is now and some calling for it to be easier.

I would have sympathy for Turbine, as they trying to design this mess. But then I remember they created the problem with all the power creep they put in (particularly the past year).

[Vanhooger]

No one forces casters to be CC only. If you are grouped with another caster who's doing most of the CC what prevents you from using all your sp to nuke and play the DPS role?

Casters (read wiz/sorc) already have the best CC tools in game, no other class can come even close. If they allowed them to do more dps than anyone or they didn't gimp their dps as everyone else got it gimped what do you think it will be the end result? What would prevent an uber caster with lots of sp pots to solo stuff even on the max dificulty setting? Why would anyone want a non caster dps in his party with his limitated CC and survavility when you can have uber casters with CC and DPS who don't need to go in mob range to do their part?

About warlocks... I think the class itself is a big mistake but we are not going to change that. Sure they can use their sp to CC while blasting for damage but is it much different from a sorc who uses his sp to CC and cheap (almost free) SLAS for damage? You never run completly out of sp whith magical training... an if you do sp pots can fix that, they drop in game or can be bought from store.

Did you read my post at all? I guess you didn't.

Melee have infifnite cleave.
Ranged have infinite arrow/shuri or whatever you using
Warlock have infinite blast.

Blue bar caster do NOT have infinite resources, and chug pot it's not an option unless you're Bill Gate's son.

I didn't ask to leave caster untouched but have a bit more damage compared to other classes, since they have LIMITED resource.

As well, I think you don't play much sorc/wiz.

You need to spec if you want to be good at something, especially in reaper (probably see +1 save per skull), and if you are a sorc is getting even worse as you need to use the few feats you get into sr.

[Mr_Helmet]

If you are grouped with another caster who's doing most of the CC what prevents you from using all your sp to nuke and play the DPS role?

Common sense.

[Vanhooger]

Common sense.

You may be the only caster, or the other caster isn't donig CC as he didn't spec on it. You can get many different party, but look like you guys don't won't to focus on the thread title.

[Enoach]

Did you read my post at all? I guess you didn't.

Melee have infifnite cleave.
Ranged have infinite arrow/shuri or whatever you using
Warlock have infinite blast.

Blue bar caster do NOT have infinite resources, and chug pot it's not an option unless you're Bill Gate's son.

I didn't ask to leave caster untouched but have a bit more damage compared to other classes, since they have LIMITED resource.

As well, I think you don't play much sorc/wiz.

You need to spec if you want to be good at something, especially in reaper (probably see +1 save per skull), and if you are a sorc is getting even worse as you need to use the few feats you get into sr.

Just a few comments...

Shiradi Champion ED has actually been shown to be a better ED for casters that like to do damage as their primary but want to keep Spell Point costs low - Rainbow/Double Rainbow is not always the best option as Stay Frosty (Tier 1) can help slow mobs down. Past Life Feat Color of the Queen can also contribute here.

Casters have not yet had their pass - Wizard, Sorcerer, Cleric, FvS and Druid. So we cannot jump to conclusions on how Reaper will work for these classes in the long run.

Most that play sorcerer that I know generally skip Spell Penetration Feats as they usually keep to non-SR spells. There are a few that try to work in an Enchantment focus for Hold Spells as that increases there nuking damage but many simply stick to nuking it into orbit .

What I like about the direction Turbine is taking in reducing our damage is that prior to this they would simply Boost the CR of a mob which in turns increases HP, Save and Damage output.

I actually look forward to trying this on all my characters.

[2pc2]

Blue bar caster do NOT have infinite resources, and chug pot it's not an option unless you're Bill Gate's son.

I didn't ask to leave caster untouched but have a bit more damage compared to other classes, since they have LIMITED resource.

1-Echoes of Power is a temporary SP regeneration that begins once a character drops below 12 SP. It will restore 4 SP every 6 seconds until you have reached 12 SP again. The effect cannot put you over 12 SP, unless you have more than 0 when it begins to regenerate your SP (ex, 3, it will recharge to, 15 before stopping).

Echoes of Power requires the Magical Training feat. The Magical Training feat is granted to Artificers, Clerics, Druids, Favored Souls, Wizards, and Sorcerers at level 1.

2-Endless faith: Passive Bonus: Spell point pool increased by [4/7/10]%. Echoes of power restore up to [18/24/30] sp

3- Just Reward: When you critically hit with a Fire, Force, Light, or Physical damage spell, you gain 3/6/10 Sacred temporary spell points.

4- Consuming a mnemonic elixir restores consumed spell points to your character. Additionally, it cures Feeblemind.

Acquired from:

DDO Store.
Daily Dice prize.
Occasionally from various giveaways, (e.g. from Birthday Battle Box).
Very Rare chest drop
Anniversary Card Collection
Card II: Achaierai & Card VI: Grell for 25 Major
Card IV: Mimic & Card VII: Owlbear for 20 Superior

That said lets try not make it caster vs others discussion if possible

[2pc2]

Common sense.

And the ponit is? Just the same common sense that tells you not to try tanking on a rogue, not try to dps on a CC oriented build or try to CC on a dps oriented build

You can specc a sorc for dps if what you want is to dps on a sorc but then your CC will be bad or you can do the other way around. Or you can ask for having both and then complain the game is to easy. Everyone will be forced to more specific roles it's not just a caster thing.

[Vanhooger]

That said lets try not make it caster vs others discussion if possible

Why not? Who should I compare to?

I think you don't play caster much, otherwise you would know what it takes. All the thing you listed are going to fade very quickly after few 10 skull run unless you run with superdupe people.

Hope you're joking with echoes of power.

[2pc2]

I think you don't play caster much, otherwise you would know what it takes. All the thing you listed are going to fade very quickly after few 10 skull run unless you run with superdupe people.

Endelss faith, magical training and just reward will never fade since they are all 3 abilities that constantly restore your sp back when you are low, making it imposible that you run completly out of sp for a long period of time.

If you have to use too many sp pots maybe you are just spamming too many spells and you have to be more carefull when and why you use this or that spell, you can't pretend the max dificulty setting to be the spam fest that is EE or LE. In the same way a ranged toon will have to be carefull not to aggro to many mobs while kiting punishing greatly IPS or a melee will have to be much more carefull whith the aggro he gets to avoid being dead , it will be harder for everyone and everyone wil see his dps reduced apart from the X% reduction they introduce.

Why not? Who should I compare to?

Because this subforum is not dedicated to caters vs everyone there are other subforums for that. This subforum is , in theory, to give feedback and suggestions to reaper difficulty not this class vs this other. And unfortunately I see a lot of ppl more worried about what will be the rewards or how their fav class will do than the difficulty or the challenge itself, and I think you are a good example of that second, no pun itended.

[Vanhooger]

Endelss faith, magical training and just reward will never fade since they are all 3 abilities that constantly restore your sp back when you are low, making it imposible that you run completly out of sp for a long period of time.

If you have to use too many sp pots maybe you are just spamming too many spells and you have to be more carefull when and why you use this or that spell, you can't pretend the max dificulty setting to be the spam fest that is EE or LE. In the same way a ranged toon will have to be carefull not to aggro to many mobs while kiting punishing greatly IPS or a melee will have to be much more carefull whith the aggro he gets to avoid being dead , it will be harder for everyone and everyone wil see his dps reduced apart from the X% reduction they introduce.



Because this subforum is not dedicated to caters vs everyone there are other subforums for that. This subforum is , in theory, to give feedback and suggestions to reaper difficulty not this class vs this other. And unfortunately I see a lot of ppl more worried about what will be the rewards or how their fav class will do than the difficulty or the challenge itself, and I think you are a good example of that second, no pun itended.

Lol you say things that I never said but whatever, I dont care.

Who said I use sp pots? And I don't need lesson on how to play a caster, thanks tho, appreciated.

We are providing feedback on this thread saying what I can see from Wizza video.

This is feedback, I don't know how you calling this.

You don't have to like everyone feedback.

I dont care about reward as you can see I didn't even post in that thread.

As well I don't have favourite class as I play caster, melee and ranged.

So speak for yourself next time cheers.