Reaper Reward Suggestions

[Hawkwier]

Thus far, upon posting my opinion that Reaper should be reward in its-self for those seeking the added challenge originally asked for, I have been called - wrongly in an attempt to dismiss my opinion - someone who wont ever play it, then a hater. This by a poster who was not even addressed in giving my initial opinion.

I've also been accused - rightly this time at least - as putting forward my personal agenda - as if anyone on here doesn't! LOL! What a tactic!

It's also now been claimed I don't understand the motivation of players for playing Reaper, and that loot is the answer for it's longevity and success. My opinion on this is that, unlike some, I understand that Reaper is a mode of play, NOT a new quest/content, and can make that important distinction. Where on earth is the longevity, supposedly sought for, once said loot has been obtained? Would those, in all honesty, clamouring for reward, continue to play it once they have their loot? I strongly suspect not. So, why the need added loot at all, as clearly the motivation for Reaper disappears soon as loot is obtained. Reaper was predicated on folks asking for challenge - that is what should be delivered to those who want it.

Reaper has to stand on its own feet - lasting challenge and grouping - loot is not the answer to its success IMO. Again that's a personal opinion (BOOO! eh? )

Please Sev, again, I appeal: don't risk disenfranchising those not interested in Reaper by proxy, folks who never asked for or wanted it, by giving in to the loot based approach being lobbied for here.

Given some of the pretty shoddy, IMO, tactics employed on here to dismiss the counter opinion, please also consider that giving them what they want would not only be wrong for the game, it would also be pretty dismal outcome in terms of demonstrating reward for the behaviour that some believe passes for lobbying on here, reinforcing that behaviour.

Again that's only my, supposedly inferior, personal opinion. It, nevertheless, stands.

Make Reaper for the challenge, and to encourage grouping (maybe some small incremental added XP for that too?). Nothing more.

Thanks.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

The reward should be a cosmetic, with the words: "I survived Reaper Mode and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."

[nokowi]

Thus far, upon posting my opinion that Reaper should be reward in its-self for those seeking the added challenge originally asked for, I have been called - wrongly in an attempt to dismiss my opinion - someone who wont ever play it, then a hater. This by a poster who was not even addressed in giving my initial opinion.

I've also been accused - rightly this time at least - as putting forward my personal agenda - as if anyone on here doesn't! LOL! What a tactic!


Reaper has to stand on its own feet - lasting challenge and grouping - loot is not the answer to its success IMO. Again that's a personal opinion (BOOO! eh? )

Please Sev, again, I appeal: don't risk disenfranchising those not interested in Reaper by proxy, folks who never asked for or wanted it, by giving in to the loot based approach being lobbied for here.

Given some of the pretty shoddy, IMO, tactics employed on here to dismiss the counter opinion, please also consider that giving them what they want would not only be wrong for the game, it would also be pretty dismal outcome in terms of demonstrating reward for the behaviour that some believe passes for lobbying on here, reinforcing that behaviour.

Again that's only my, supposedly inferior, personal opinion. It, nevertheless, stands.

Make Reaper for the challenge, and to encourage grouping (maybe some small incremental added XP for that too?). Nothing more.

Thanks.

I think players might disagree the logic of your statements. Try out the following:

My opinion on this is that, unlike some, I understand that Reaper is a mode of play, NOT a new quest/content, and can make that important distinction.

Elite setting, Hard setting, and Normal setting, and Casual settings are also just difficulty settings.

It's also now been claimed I don't understand the motivation of players for playing Reaper, and that loot is the answer for it's longevity and success. Where on earth is the longevity, supposedly sought for, once said loot has been obtained? Would those, in all honesty, clamouring for reward, continue to play it once they have their loot? I strongly suspect not. So, why the need added loot at all, as clearly the motivation for Reaper disappears soon as loot is obtained. Reaper was predicated on folks asking for challenge - that is what should be delivered to those who want it.

Your logic also dictates that casual, normal, hard, and elite should not have any rewards. After all, these are just difficulty settings.

Make Reaper for the challenge, and to encourage grouping (maybe some small incremental added XP for that too?). Nothing more.

Here you have identified 2 things that might make players choose to play reaper.


Unfortunately you failed to make the logic argument of why rewards should not be in reaper. The logical argument centers around power creep that negates challenge (one of the 2 reasons to play reaper, as you identified). But that's the problem with using logic, if rewards don't cause power creep (that negates challenge) you have no good argument for why reaper can't have rewards.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

For every skull you complete, your character's head size should increase by 10%.

[Talon_Moonshadow]

Many players were honest about

1) wanting a difficulty setting where they are challenged
2) having a reason to run that difficulty
3) not wanting powercreep that negates challenge

It's the players who demand no reward at all, who are not ubergamers, and wont play on the higher difficulty settings that cause a problem.



Now for those that will play on difficult settings, they "value" a variety of different things.

Good game design would provide as many of these as they can, as long as it does not violate 3).



Those who hate the idea of reaper, try to remove 2) by demanding no rewards in the guise of: any reward is automatically power creep that will ruin the challenge --> which is complete nonsense.

I'll be playing it. (assuming the power-gamers don't exclude me after the resume and background check)
I do want some kind of cool reward.
I do not want to see that reward cause further power creep and separation of the players.

I would prefer it to be an incentive to run capped toons through it.

[Pyed-Pyper]

I think players might disagree the logic of your statements.
....
Unfortunately you failed to make the logic argument of why rewards should not be in reaper. The logical argument centers around power creep that negates challenge (one of the 2 reasons to play reaper, as you identified). But that's the problem with using logic, if rewards don't cause power creep (that negates challenge) you have no good argument for why reaper can't have rewards.

You are in no position to be lecturing anyone about logic.

Hawkwier knocks it out of the park with that last post.

Reaper is either 'end game' or it is the 'new elite'. "New Elite" is power creep. "End Game" is using current gear and current power in an escalating difficulty setting. ANY player power increase from Reaper defeats the purpose of "end game" challenges.

This can be stated only so many times before one wonders if proponents of power creep rewards either don't understand the situation or don't care about killing DDO. Into which category do you fall, Nowoki?

[Pyed-Pyper]

For every skull you complete, your character's head size should increase by 10%.

I was thinking a cosmetic feather for one's cosmetic cap, but your idea is so much more elegant. We don't have to "waste precious dev time" on cosmetics ("because that's too hard and dev's never do that"), and then there's the 'truth in advertising' angle of the giant head. Maybe it could bobble too?

[Talon_Moonshadow]

I was thinking a cosmetic feather for one's cosmetic cap, but your idea is so much more elegant. We don't have to "waste precious dev time" on cosmetics ("because that's too hard and dev's never do that"), and then there's the 'truth in advertising' angle of the giant head. Maybe it could bobble too?

Bobble... lol

[nokowi]

You are in no position to be lecturing anyone about logic.

Hawkwier knocks it out of the park with that last post.

Reaper is either 'end game' or it is the 'new elite'. "New Elite" is power creep. "End Game" is using current gear and current power in an escalating difficulty setting. ANY player power increase from Reaper defeats the purpose of "end game" challenges.

This can be stated only so many times before one wonders if proponents of power creep rewards either don't understand the situation or don't care about killing DDO. Into which category do you fall, Nowoki?

If you read my posts, they are based on NOT having power creep that negates challenge.

So when you make a post like this, it shows you haven't even taken the time to read my statements.

Into what category do I fall?

I observe that with each new update, players preferentially play the setting that gives them the new gear as fast as possible. With the introduction of reaper, how will I be able to find players on reaper for the latest content (something power players that have played everything might be likely to be doing), when choosing a difficulty that goes against every choice power players have made for the last 3 years?

You can make up as many false accusations as you want, but can you answer the question:

Why will players that previously chose less difficulty for faster obtainment of new gear play the latest content on reaper?


My answer was to have a higher drop rate of mythic items, so that MORE players might choose reaper for the latest content.

Do I need ANY reward on reaper? No, but I won't be playing reaper if it doesn't offer a good group experience, which includes having players to play with when I log on. My subscription expires in the next week or two (been inactive for maybe 3 months due to lack of challenge), and I won't be renewing on the hopes that I will find large numbers of groups when players like you sabotage reaper.

So as you try to type cast me as some power hungry player, answer why I haven't played for the last 3 months when there was PLENTY of additional power creep?

Please explain to everyone why I choose melee rogue, when it is not a tier 1 build and not even the top rogue build?

I'll bet you can't do it, because your mischaracterizations fail a basic test of logic. Apparently I do need to lecture.

[nokowi]

I get a kick out of the forums, where increasing mythic drop rate is automatically thought to be power creep.

If it takes 60% longer to complete a reaper quest, and the drop rate is 1.5x higher, then players will progress in power SLOWER in reaper than if reaper did not exist.

It's too bad we can't have a discussion focused on

1) What motivates players
2) Which suggestions are consistent with the design goals of group play and having challenge.

Forumites want to ignore #1, and in the process they help ensure that reaper performs much worse (far less players) than it could perform while still meeting the design objectives of challenge and group play.

[Ellihor]

It should gives you a bankable XP reward to use after TR. Make them pay "reaper tokens" that you trade to NPC to get XP. Would be a good reason to not do endless TRs as a 10 PL/10 warlock.

[Pyed-Pyper]

It should gives you a bankable XP reward to use after TR. Make them pay "reaper tokens" that you trade to NPC to get XP. Would be a good reason to not do endless TRs as a 10 PL/10 warlock.

Power creep in the form of PLs is power creep. If you don't like heroic questing, become friends with Otto, he lurks in the DDO store.

[Khalibano]

Hey everyone, just wanted to say what I think about Reaper.

I've been playing ddo for 10 years (VIP), mostly a casual player (weekends and a couple of hours on a couple of weedkdays).
I have 6 active characters, for which I have acquired a lot of loot throughout the years. This means they pulverise content in heroic elite, as the new heroic loot + cannith crafting increased power massively at that level.
When levelling, I do all the quests in the game in elite, because I still require +5 tomes for many abilities for all those 6 characters and because I hate running the same stuff over and over again to get xp.
I always solo heroic content, mostly because I would otherwise end up moving and killing too fast for those who are new to the game, and therefore, ruin their gaming experience.
From around level 15, I start joining elite lfm runs with a party, because I do prefer running with groups instead of doing mindless boring solo zerging.
I do most epic quests with parties, but this often involves waiting for lfms to pop-up (I really hate being a party leader lol).

I do not know how many gamers have a similar profile to mine (and therefore not sure how representative my view is), but I would definitely play reaper mode, both while levelling (as long as I get the same xp as elite) and at end game. I would be more than happy to just be able to test the abilities of my build in synergy with other types of builds in defeating the quests I already end up running at all levels (if there are enough people willing to do so too).

I love the idea proposed below:

Reaper mode, however, is intended to be a playground to really test not only the ability to create builds, but to demonstrate skill in playing those builds. In order for that to occur, players need to be allowed to fail.

Sev~

It would be nice to 'be able to fail' again, see some more soulstones, instead of just running behind a couple of Warlocks in every single quest. This is a reward in itself. Teamwork and better use of tactics and skills would also be one of my rewards. There are more champions in reaper, so these extra mysterious remnants are already nice. This is more than enough to keep me interested, nothing more.
Yes, reaper mode takes longer and is harder, and this means I won't always have the time to play stuff I want/need in reaper. But whenever I have time, I would definitely prefer it for the challange and teamwork.

I wouldn't mind having any 'non-power creep' rewards added (cosmetics, etc.), since it would not be a reason for me to run them, but would be nice to get.
I would not want to see any other form of reward that made reaper the new end game content, as like many here, I believe this would make it pointless.

I am only hoping that, if reaper is as I am envisioning it here, it would interest enough people, so that there are enough lfms for reaper mode quests at all levels.

Anyway, that's just my opinion

[nokowi]

I am only hoping that, if reaper is as I am envisioning it here, it would interest enough people, so that there are enough lfms for reaper mode quests at all levels.

Anyway, that's just my opinion

I think heroics will probably have a reasonable reaper population with just remnants.

At end game (level 30 toon), your remnant drop rate is 1/2 to 1/3 of what it is in heroics. Your level 30 toon might be grabbing the latest gear, but again you can get that gear much faster outside of reaper. I just don't see many reasons reaper will be run by level 30 characters, other than to try a build one time.

I feel it would take something like higher mythic drop rates to help push more players into reaper for the latest content. If you get 1.5x the drop rate and it takes 60% longer (1.6x the time), I think that players will see the 1.5x mythic drop rate and feel like they are getting enough to run the latest content on reaper. Allowing level 30 characters to get equal remnants to heroic leveling might also be enough all on its own. It seems backwards that heroics produce more remnants than epics, and that remnants are much harder to get at level 30.

If remnants are the reaper reward, there need to be some changes in heroic vs epic vs level 30 drop rates.

[Pyed-Pyper]

We need to push more people into reaper because a standalone endgame challenge isn't enough.

Because we don't have an agenda.

[Clemeit]

Reaper-mode exclusive cosmetics... now that would be super awesome!

[nokowi]

We need to push more people into reaper because a standalone endgame challenge isn't enough.

Because we don't have an agenda.

I asked for reaper to be at end game, the reason being is so that there are not competing preferences between those trying to level quickly and those who want challenge and a good grouping experience. I even listed the couple of things that would make it work at endgame with no reward.

The AGENDA is for reaper to be successful, and my comments demonstrate this.

Creating imaginary agendas for other players is a result of not having a good argument of your own.

[BoBoDaClown]

Mentioned this earlier, I need some kind of tangible benefit (i.e. non-cosmetic - though happy for cosmetics to be there for those who like them) to run it. I want to run a quest with a chance of failure and some kind of rewards.

i.e. more augments
higher chance of mythics
tome drops

They need to be very careful that this is powercreep. People complaining about powercreep haven't experienced it - we haven't had power creep in years - it's all been powerrush.

I would love the rewards or something in reaper to give us back the variety we had in the old epic system.

Due to the seal/scroll/shards + the day lockout + powercreep as opposed to OP updates = we had quite a lot of quests to run at cap. Now I feel like the best gear is in certain 1-3 quests - just run that over and over.

Challenge + variety would be good.

[TBot1234]

The reward should be a cosmetic, with the words: "I survived Reaper Mode and all I got was this lousy T-shirt."

If the DM is trying to kill you, maybe he should also be trying to break or take away your loot...?

Love the idea of leaving you with a t-shirt or other cosmetic though.

[Kitma]

I'd also agree that while cosmetic rewards are perfectly in line with Reaper mode, anything else is a very bad idea. As previous posters have already stated, dangling rewards to run content in a carrot like fashion only works until the carrot has been obtained. But keeping Reaper mode clean of this mind set in the first place it can be used as a mode where players can use the builds and the teamwork that they've built up in the standard game and really put it to the test.

Is it really strange to think that playing a challenging game for fun should be it's own reward? I for one am looking forward to Reaper mode but there will be a lot of casual players who aren't up for it as the mode isn't designed with them in mind and having rewards that a casual player can't realistically obtain in the time that have to play the game is just going to switch players off.