Reaper Reward Suggestions

[nokowi]

Trying to move the goalposts by tacking on additional benefits isn't an honest approach IMO.

I listed what I thought were reasonable rewards. You can comment specifically on such things as why having your character grow in height will cause such massive power creep.

Or you can continue to ignore my earlier reward comments and characterize my view incorrectly, as it serves your own purposes.

[Ballyspringer]

I agree with those who don't want more power creep/power leap added to the game through rewards for this difficulty.

I can't believe that people actually want power-added rewards for this difficulty. The difficult difficulty won't be difficult any more once you've temporarily satiated your never-ending appetites for 'bigger numbers'.

You can't have both a challenging difficulty and big rewards for the challenging difficulty because one destroys the other. It's not that complicated, Think about it. Why don't people understand this?

And no, they shouldn't then just add yet another difficulty once Reaper is trivialized by power leap. We're continuously widening the gap of power acquired by older players vs. newer players and further spreading an already thinned-out player population across more and more difficulties and power-levels and more and more questing content. Some people actually still want to play with others in a multi-player game. Get over the narcissistic desire to be "better" than other people for the sake of the game's health please.

This - and this some more.

Reaper should be about the challenge, having even more power even just "incremental" power marginalizes that entire point. People yell left and right on the forums and in game about how easy the game is and it's getting boring for them - reaper is that answer for those people. It's a game mode that you have to hone your skills and tactics up for and you have to have a really good toon with top gear and past lives. It's the challenge that makes it awesome and I can't wait to see live. Adding in any more power, even something as "incremental" as +1 more stat to loot or +1 damage already starts to trivialize that entire point of the mode and it will only get worse as more and more updates happen.

If you need more power you are not the player that reaper is made for yet, reaper should not and never be the new elite mode that everyone plays for xp.

That's why I'd be all about cosmetics (which I honestly don't care anything about), maybe easier access to things already in the game now, a ladder board again, or something different like I mentioned in another post adding titles or something along those lines for bragging rights.

We don't need any more power not even a little bit or it removes the entire point of having reaper mode in the first place. Personally I'm going to play it on my better toons just for the fun and challenge, I don't care about any rewards or bragging rights but I know a lot of people do.

[Stoner81]

So I noticed that in the reaper mode that mysterious remnants seemed to be dropping like candy.

Instead of having the mobs drop mysterious remnants have them drop "reaper remnants" instead, or have the quest reward them on completion like the challenges do based on some metric.

Then place a "Reaper Trader," just like the mysterious remnant trader, into the Hall of Heroes.

Have unique cosmetic rewards that can only be obtained this way.

Things that looked really evil and reaper like. Like awesome skull helms, death wraith outfits and the like.

I am quite happy with remnants dropping a lot since I struggle to get them in Epics (probably due to how I play more than anything) but it would mean that I could finally finish off my tomes etc for my main and even start looking at a couple of alts.

great idea. I remember when the challenges had leader boards; what happened to those? I was proud of myself to get on them for Rushmore's. These are the things that do not cause power creep.
The mere fact that people proudly post stuff in the achievements section, or top-level completions on Youtube, shows that members of the population will respond.

Imagine a guild that has all of its members taking top spots on leaderboards.

Would be cool if these came back for the Challenges in general to be honest, might generate so more interest in them.

Stoner81.

[Saekee]

It might be time to revisit suggestions about the Hall of Heroes. Perhaps enough of certain kinds of reaper challenge successes nets the toon a statue there.

[nokowi]

Personally I'm going to play it on my better toons just for the fun and challenge, I don't care about any rewards or bragging rights but I know a lot of people do.

It's as simple as looking at how many capped players play LE shroud, and how often.

That's what we should expect on a reaper system with no rewards as a best-case scenario (LE shroud has rewards).

Players preferentially want challenge at level 30, in which case players get ... nothing... no XP ... no rewards. Without rewards, the content needs to have replayability. The solution to reaper is so simple (cc, healer, ranged DPS possibly insta kill) that I don't see longevity without character progression.

The vast majority of players play to improve their builds/character, and only a few percent of the time (at best) simply for challenge.


There is a difference between power creep that negates challenge and having some reward. It's not surprising many forumites can't differentiate between the two. If the pace of item power creep is much greater than any reaper rewards, then reaper rewards are not a problem. It's simple logic.

Having a pool of available players trumps any other request for reaper. Without it, reaper fails.

[Loromir]

You don't have any do you?

The fact that nobody posts or ever really has posted on it is all the evidence you should need.

To say that "NOBODY" has posted about it is wrong. In fact this thread has more support for Cannith Challenge leader boards than those against it....so I say again..."Where is your proof"?

[Sam-u-r-eye]

It's as simple as looking at how many capped players play LE shroud, and how often.

There are probably 4 server runs of LE shroud per week. But!

Reaper does not = LE shroud

There are many other settings than skull 10.

[nokowi]

There are probably 4 server runs of LE shroud per week. But!

Reaper does not = LE shroud

There are many other settings than skull 10.

Reaper is the same type of challenge as LE shroud (more damage, more mob HP), albeit with group roles for some builds, and others left in the dust.

It doesn't provide a new kind of challenge beyond LE shroud (damage spike).

Players listed the type of challenge they like, and almost none of them are in what we see for reaper.

All I am saying is that if you list ALL the reasons someone might play reaper, character progression would be one of them.

This can be done without causing any meaningful power creep --> Does anyone complain about a +1 or +2 mythic version of loot on elite being OP? The answer is no, because it is far less than what we get from the new gear with each new update.

Having better mythic drops in reaper creates a static amount of power, because only the mythic version of the latest and greatest gear will be relevant. This gives reaper replayability for those who care about character progression, without the type of power creep that will make reaper non challenging.

There are many many such solutions that would allow progression without meaningful power creep.

[Ballyspringer]

All I am saying is that if you list ALL the reasons someone might play reaper, character progression would be one of them.

To me this is the fundamental difference in our opinions - to me reaper is for when you're character is at it's top progression and "finished" to give a challenge and to hone your skills and really learning how to play your toon to it's fullest, not for xp or loot. Basically give a reason to "finish" a toon, or to fail and see what more you may need to be able to have a finished toon.

To me if you want to progress your toon that's not for this mode, that's for running raids and quests for XP and Loot. If they made reaper mode 0 xp for a completion I'd be happy with it (and honestly I'd probably prefer if they did exact thing so if you pug'd a run instead of doing a static group - which not all of us are on enough to have static groups - you would end up with barbarians running their 3rd rank of magister joining up instead of someone truly ready for the mode). Having this mode give character progression will only make people act more "elitist" and start requiring gear and ED checks before starting which alienates people. That or it will make the people who can run it just never post for it and only run it with static groups/people they know, which will lead to nerf threads because people won't see people running it so they will assume it's too hard.

[Severlin]

Reaper is the same type of challenge as LE shroud (more damage, more mob HP), albeit with group roles for some builds, and others left in the dust.

It doesn't provide a new kind of challenge beyond LE shroud (damage spike).

Just so it doesn't get misrepresented to the people who haven't tried it; Reaper has some meaningful tweaks that are more than just increased damage; not the least of which is the fact that you have to watch for and eliminate the Reapers themselves before they mess up your group.

Changing the frequency and power of the Reapers is a meaningful way we can up the difficulty if it proves too easy.

Sev~

[Qezuzu]

Definitely agree with zero power creep from this mode. It defeats the purpose.

Bragging rights/cosmetic rewards are good but won't engage as many people.

I would like to see a lot of XP from reaper mode. Currently the fastest way to level is to zerg through quests with elite bravery bonus, usually solo unless you find a good LFM that's running exactly what you want. Large swaths of content have not kept up with the class passes and are way too easy.

Reaper should be alternative and time-efficient way to level, where you replace running through a dungeon at light-speed with a reasonably balanced party, coordination, and tactics. This would be an easy way to make reaper mode rewarding without introducing power creep.

[nokowi]

Definitely agree with zero power creep from this mode. It defeats the purpose.

Bragging rights/cosmetic rewards are good but won't engage as many people.

I would like to see a lot of XP from reaper mode. Currently the fastest way to level is to zerg through quests with elite bravery bonus, usually solo unless you find a good LFM that's running exactly what you want. Large swaths of content have not kept up with the class passes and are way too easy.

Reaper should be alternative and time-efficient way to level, where you replace running through a dungeon at light-speed with a reasonably balanced party, coordination, and tactics. This would be an easy way to make reaper mode rewarding without introducing power creep.

Dev's, please don't listen to this.

Massive XP just makes reaper the new requirement, and will result in the same lack of challenge and sense of entitlement we have in elite now.

Reaper should also be for those at cap as well at those on the TR train.

Power players can TR in little to no time as-is. They don't need a further XP advantage over the rest of the population.

[nokowi]

Just so it doesn't get misrepresented to the people who haven't tried it; Reaper has some meaningful tweaks that are more than just increased damage; not the least of which is the fact that you have to watch for and eliminate the Reapers themselves before they mess up your group.

Changing the frequency and power of the Reapers is a meaningful way we can up the difficulty if it proves too easy.

Sev~

It should be noted I haven't tried it (and clearly stated this earlier), so thanks for the clarification.

You have a group of players that must play the most OP builds in the game to have fun, and they should have a good time finding the new "best" builds in reaper mode. The changes seem to gate which builds are good and bad (non tank melee being awful in particular), rather than bringing all players to the table.

Giving players abilities such as melee cc, only to negate it in reaper is a design failure of the highest magnitude. That's the only option melee has to reduce damage taken. If you argue teamwork, why isn't a ranged toon better in every way with the same cc from the party?

I fully expect certain builds to be labeled as "bad" players if they show up in reaper. It reminds me of when the monchers were "good" players simply because they chose the easiest button in the game (and while this level of power was totally unnecessary). This is not what I was looking for when I think of "group" play and teamwork.

[Severlin]

It should be noted I haven't tried it (and clearly stated this earlier), so thanks for the clarification.

You have a group of players that must play the most OP builds in the game to have fun, and they should have a good time finding the new "best" builds in reaper mode. The changes seem to gate which builds are good and bad (non tank melee being awful in particular), rather than bringing all players to the table.

I fully expect certain builds to be labeled as "bad" players if they show up in reaper. It reminds me of when the monchers were "good" players simply because they chose the easiest button in the game (and while this level of power was totally unnecessary). This is not what I was looking for when I think of "group" play and teamwork.

Off the top of my head I see three paths to succeeding in high skull Reaper mode:

~ Have a specialized tank hold agro while others eliminate Reapers and DPS down creatures. If a Reaper gets on the tank for any period of time they will probably die.

~ Have people devoted to CC and keep mobs locked down. Not trivial in the turmoil of a dungeon but a solid choice.

~ Go with a kiting options, eliminating Reapers before they pursue characters and slow them, and taking down creatures while kiting and physically dodging.

I am sure players will find other paths as well.

One of the strengths of DDO is that skill and knowledge at creating and gearing builds can create powerful characters. As a result, lack of skill and knowledge can create weak builds. This is part of the play experience for this game; we aren't trying to hide or mitigate that. Our goal isn't all builds are equal, but rather there is a rich design space for players to experiment with and play all sorts of builds.

As a result, we have created a wide range of difficulties. Philosophically we like that players can participate with all sorts of builds in DDO because they can pick a difficulty that suits them. Reaper mode, however, is intended to be a playground to really test not only the ability to create builds, but to demonstrate skill in playing those builds. In order for that to occur, players need to be allowed to fail.

Sev~

[Hawkwier]

I listed what I thought were reasonable rewards. You can comment specifically on such things as why having your character grow in height will cause such massive power creep.

Or you can continue to ignore my earlier reward comments and characterize my view incorrectly, as it serves your own purposes.

LOL! Why? Is this forum purely about you and your comments/opinions? Don't think so mate.

I posted my opinion on reaper based on what was originally asked for. You chose to respond to that and attempted to dismiss it as someone not interested in reaper, wrongly, so I further clarified my position. I really could care less if you like that or not. It remains what it is.

As for the comments about reaper being about puzzles and traps etc. That's not reaper mode. That's new quest design. And new quests will bring their own reward. Seems somewhat naive to think that reaper would deliver those sorts of features requiring significant quest redesign. Time the devs can better spend in designing new quests IMO. For everyone.

I can't fault that desire in terms of good quest design, but that shouldn't be confused with upping the difficulty level of existing quests from elite. Which is what Reaper was mooted as.

Like I've said already reaper might not be what everyone wants. But it's what some asked for. If someone doesn't want to run it, thats up to them, but they shouldn't be punished by proxy for that choice. If the added challenge isn't enough for those that want it, and it fails, then it was simply a wrong headed idea/design in the first place. At least the devs will have given it a shot and responded to the issue.

It won't be for everyone and never will be.

Like any difficulty level, it will succeed if enough folk want to play it. If those who claimed they wanted the improved challenge stop playing it, then their motives weren't what they thought they were in the first place. That hard truth shouldn't be swathed in or hidden by other added benefits.

Personally I'll quite happily join reaper groups when they pop up. The quest level has never featured much in my LFM selection in any case, and if it promotes more grouping that's great. But beyond that improved playing experience I see no rationale for further reward beyond those offered in elite. Any pressure on folks to feel they have to play reaper to get any significant added reward will be exclusive and may lead to resentment among those not interested in reaper, which would be much worse for the game overall IMO than whether or not anyone chooses to continue to play reaper over elite. The game needs to be accessible and inclusive. Reaper mode by its nature risks countering that necessary ethos. The devs need to be mindful of that risk.

Reaper should be it's own reward. Nothing more.

Now, I'm off to ignore someone else...

[Qezuzu]

Massive XP just makes reaper the new requirement, and will result in the same lack of challenge and sense of entitlement we have in elite now.

This would only result if the devs eventually caved in to silly people asking for nerfs to a difficulty that's not even intended to be completed on its highest settings.

That's on them, not us.

Reaper should also be for those at cap as well at those on the TR train.

Reaper is available at all levels, so I don't know why you would think it's specifically a cap thing.

And if it's also for people on the TR-train, then why would it not give good XP? What's the reason to play a difficulty that's significantly harder but doesn't grant any reward?

Power players can TR in little to no time as-is. They don't need a further XP advantage over the rest of the population.

The power player's advantage in leveling is already massive. They use XP pots, they have tomes, they know every quest in and out, they plow through elite mobs like butter, they know of efficient builds for leveling, they have or can craft any piece of gear they want, they have multiple past lives already. I have seen the speed difference between a top player and an average player. It is already humongous. They can pump out a 36pt heroic life in under a week, whereas casual players will take months to cap. Even above-average players take a few weeks to get 3.8m XP.

My suggestion for XP is based on a few things:
-we can't have reaper mode introduce more needless power creep
-majority of people are not going to care about getting cosmetic hats or whatever from a mode that takes so much effort to complete
-the devs are spending a lot of time and resources on this mode, and it should have some intrinsic reward or else their time will be wasted on everyone but the small minority of players who seek challenge just for the sake of challenge

And you know what? I am frankly bored of heroic levels, as well as the earlier parts of epic levels, and have been for years. It's just a long, boring, solo, challenge-less grind that's essentially a giant block of garbage you gotta plow through before you get to have fun.

I very rarely TR anymore just for this reason. It would be fun if I could put up an LFM in heroic levels for a reaper run, and have it fill, and have a fun, challenging run of quests I used to enjoy before I ran them for the hundredth time. And you and I both know that won't happen if reaper doesn't give lots of XP. Most of the population won't be up to the challenge in the first place, and those who are won't be interested because it would be a waste of their time without an intrinsic reward.

People who want challenge for the sake of challenge are a minority, and people who want whatever other rewards reaper could offer would just run it at cap, or only run very specific quests that are easy despite the reaper changes. This is what I see happening if reaper doesn't give good XP (also, I'm not talking blowing elite bravery bonus runs out of the water, I'm talking enough XP where it is a good alternative.)

[Infiltraitor]

Dev's, please don't listen to this.

Massive XP just makes reaper the new requirement, and will result in the same lack of challenge and sense of entitlement we have in elite now.

Reaper should also be for those at cap as well at those on the TR train.

Power players can TR in little to no time as-is. They don't need a further XP advantage over the rest of the population.

Reaper mode should give 100 xp per skull. Any more implies you aren't running at cap. If you can beat reaper mode at level 25, then it isn't reaper mode.

[Sam-u-r-eye]

Reaper mode should give 100 xp per skull. Any more implies you aren't running at cap. If you can beat reaper mode at level 25, then it isn't reaper mode.

Reaper is available for every quest in the game and has an xp bonus for base level of quest + 2.

[Zebedar]

Off the top of my head I see three paths to succeeding in high skull Reaper mode:

Do any of them involve addressing the bugged Ninja capstone? or could that be a 'reward' for us customers waiting for the throwing crit multp bugged to be fixed for the last two years?

[nokowi]

Off the top of my head I see three paths to succeeding in high skull Reaper mode:

~ Have a specialized tank hold agro while others eliminate Reapers and DPS down creatures. If a Reaper gets on the tank for any period of time they will probably die.

~ Have people devoted to CC and keep mobs locked down. Not trivial in the turmoil of a dungeon but a solid choice.

~ Go with a kiting options, eliminating Reapers before they pursue characters and slow them, and taking down creatures while kiting and physically dodging.

I am sure players will find other paths as well.

One of the strengths of DDO is that skill and knowledge at creating and gearing builds can create powerful characters. As a result, lack of skill and knowledge can create weak builds. This is part of the play experience for this game; we aren't trying to hide or mitigate that. Our goal isn't all builds are equal, but rather there is a rich design space for players to experiment with and play all sorts of builds.

As a result, we have created a wide range of difficulties. Philosophically we like that players can participate with all sorts of builds in DDO because they can pick a difficulty that suits them. Reaper mode, however, is intended to be a playground to really test not only the ability to create builds, but to demonstrate skill in playing those builds. In order for that to occur, players need to be allowed to fail.

Sev~

So no melee except for tanks. You can build your best character in the regular game, gaining character power and come to reaper, and be a second/third class citizen.

How can you not allow melee single target cc to be effective?