Reaper Reward Suggestions

[nokowi]

LOL! Why? Is this forum purely about you and your comments/opinions? Don't think so mate.

I've talked about the things potential reaper players would enjoy, and I listed character progression as one of them.

I invited you to comment on rewards that I listed that were not power based, and the ones such as a higher drop rate of mythic items that already exist (making reaper a more effective farm, but netting no new power).

I didn't demand reaper be made for me. Things I don't care about include cosmetics, pets, and many of the non-power things I suggested as potential rewards.

If you look at my reaper suggestions, virtually none of them affect the single toon I play. My comments are about what will work best for ALL players in reaper, not things I want for the toon I play.

Now on the other hand, demanding there be no rewards (projecting what you want onto everyone else) is an example of considering only yourself. Asking for there not to be power creep is appropriate and reasonable. Demanding there be nothing is not.


I said that reaper needs to have a pool of players, and if devs listen to people like you, I expect a far smaller pool of players. They are doing a good enough job by cutting off 40-50% of builds at the get-go, having a very narrow level range, and spreading players amongst 30 levels with 10 difficulty settings. They don't need your help.

Keep me on ignore if your not interested in discussing points.

[nokowi]

This would only result if the devs eventually caved in to silly people asking for nerfs to a difficulty that's not even intended to be completed on its highest settings.

That's on them, not us.



Reaper is available at all levels, so I don't know why you would think it's specifically a cap thing.

And if it's also for people on the TR-train, then why would it not give good XP? What's the reason to play a difficulty that's significantly harder but doesn't grant any reward?



The power player's advantage in leveling is already massive. They use XP pots, they have tomes, they know every quest in and out, they plow through elite mobs like butter, they know of efficient builds for leveling, they have or can craft any piece of gear they want, they have multiple past lives already. I have seen the speed difference between a top player and an average player. It is already humongous. They can pump out a 36pt heroic life in under a week, whereas casual players will take months to cap. Even above-average players take a few weeks to get 3.8m XP.

My suggestion for XP is based on a few things:
-we can't have reaper mode introduce more needless power creep
-majority of people are not going to care about getting cosmetic hats or whatever from a mode that takes so much effort to complete
-the devs are spending a lot of time and resources on this mode, and it should have some intrinsic reward or else their time will be wasted on everyone but the small minority of players who seek challenge just for the sake of challenge

And you know what? I am frankly bored of heroic levels, as well as the earlier parts of epic levels, and have been for years. It's just a long, boring, solo, challenge-less grind that's essentially a giant block of garbage you gotta plow through before you get to have fun.

I very rarely TR anymore just for this reason. It would be fun if I could put up an LFM in heroic levels for a reaper run, and have it fill, and have a fun, challenging run of quests I used to enjoy before I ran them for the hundredth time. And you and I both know that won't happen if reaper doesn't give lots of XP. Most of the population won't be up to the challenge in the first place, and those who are won't be interested because it would be a waste of their time without an intrinsic reward.

People who want challenge for the sake of challenge are a minority, and people who want whatever other rewards reaper could offer would just run it at cap, or only run very specific quests that are easy despite the reaper changes. This is what I see happening if reaper doesn't give good XP (also, I'm not talking blowing elite bravery bonus runs out of the water, I'm talking enough XP where it is a good alternative.)

Add massive XP and players will run at the max XP/min, not at a level that challenges them.

It will be an utter failure as a means of challenge.

[Seikojin]

Off the top of my head I see three paths to succeeding in high skull Reaper mode:

~ Have a specialized tank hold agro while others eliminate Reapers and DPS down creatures. If a Reaper gets on the tank for any period of time they will probably die.

~ Have people devoted to CC and keep mobs locked down. Not trivial in the turmoil of a dungeon but a solid choice.

~ Go with a kiting options, eliminating Reapers before they pursue characters and slow them, and taking down creatures while kiting and physically dodging.

I am sure players will find other paths as well.

One of the strengths of DDO is that skill and knowledge at creating and gearing builds can create powerful characters. As a result, lack of skill and knowledge can create weak builds. This is part of the play experience for this game; we aren't trying to hide or mitigate that. Our goal isn't all builds are equal, but rather there is a rich design space for players to experiment with and play all sorts of builds.

As a result, we have created a wide range of difficulties. Philosophically we like that players can participate with all sorts of builds in DDO because they can pick a difficulty that suits them. Reaper mode, however, is intended to be a playground to really test not only the ability to create builds, but to demonstrate skill in playing those builds. In order for that to occur, players need to be allowed to fail.

Sev~

It is a lot of text, but I 1000% agree!

It is a bummer that I didn't get to tinker in reaper mode on lam before it was brought down. Hopefully next time or on live.

[nokowi]

One of the strengths of DDO is that skill and knowledge at creating and gearing builds can create powerful characters. As a result, lack of skill and knowledge can create weak builds. This is part of the play experience for this game; we aren't trying to hide or mitigate that. Our goal isn't all builds are equal, but rather there is a rich design space for players to experiment with and play all sorts of builds.
Sev~

You are going to sell your elimination of a good portion of builds as people lacking skill and build knowledge?

I don't expect anyone that actually plays reaper to buy this.

You need to fix single target cc durations that were never OP, and you need to give melee some advantage since they have to take more damage and have to take the time to move up to mobs. I can't comment directly on DPS casters (not having tried one in reaper), but anything using SP seems to be at a big disadvantage now that they do less damage. This was already an issue in epics, so I'm not sure how it could not have been addressed in reaper when you take this philosophy (HP bags) even further.

Or you can say screw 30-40% of your players that were looking forward to reaper, and sell it as "people not knowing how to build".

My toon is an assassin that works fine. You give me the choice of standing by the tank and hitting one button every 15 seconds (snooze) or chasing after kiting mobs while swearing about the TWF range (something you have never fixed). While it works fine, these are not fun choices.

[Tilomere]

Off the top of my head I see three paths to succeeding in high skull Reaper mode:

Sev~

That sounds awfully complex. How about just using abilities which fall through the cracks.

[Qezuzu]

Add massive XP and players will run at the max XP/min, not at a level that challenges them.

It will be an utter failure as a means of challenge.

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

EDIT: and please read posts that you quote. I said Reaper should be a good alternative to the boring grind of solo elite bb. Not that it should give "massive XP."

[Seikojin]

- No consumables to circumvent challenge

Reaper Rewards
- Better Chance for mythic drops in content that has mythic drops
- Cosmetics (gear, character height increases, etc)
- Pets
- Remnants
- Higher Random Loot Table
- Utility Items (faster run speed outside of quests, teleport item to more locations)
- Consumables (bracelet of friends, repair shrine, universal guest pass --> 1 use, etc)
- Choice of Crafting Materials
- Quest Manual that gives rewards similar to a Monster Manual

+1 and perhaps a lotto roll as an additional. I know it brings exp, but that is bountiful, so another option, akin to the quest manual, is fine in my eyes.

[Claver]

I agree that there should be some reward to motivate repeat play; I also agree powercreep via Reaper mode should be avoided. People shouldn't feel like they "have to run Reaper" to advance their character.

My first choice would be to list the name of each party member who achieved the highest skull on the particular quest on the quest tab itself. I'm envisioning a 3rd tab for reaper mode with room to list up to 6 player names similar to the tabs that exist for heroic and epic settings.

For me, it is very important that those names be listed on the quest tab itself. Even if I only intend to run a heroic setting I might see the name of someone I know on the reaper tab. Or, I may notice the current record for a particular quest is only 1 or 2 skulls and opt to do 3 skull reaper at that moment for a chance to claim poll position.

Leaderboards that have to be pulled up on a separate screen or that reside on another website or youtube thread mean nothing to me - but the quest interface itself is visible every rtime you do the quest and would be very compelling.

My second choice would be to focus on guild rewards (special buff shrines, guild titles, special guild teleports, airship paint, airship banners or even cosmetic airships...etc).

The cool thing about reaper is that it exists across all levels of content but can only be played at a 2 level band. The character party composition best suited to beat Proof is in the Poison (level 4) could be entirely different from the best versus Ghost of Perdition (level 14) versus the best against Reclaiming the Rift (level 23).

Party composition might matter more and motivate creating a roster of characters for team play. I could see guilds using Iconic characters (stopping before level 15) expressly for specific quests/level ranges - if there were sufficient guild rewards

[2pc2]

It is fun how the 2nd thread with more views and replies is about rewards when this should, in theory, be all about challenge and fun playtime but... whatever

[nokowi]

I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

EDIT: and please read posts that you quote. I said Reaper should be a good alternative to the boring grind of solo elite bb. Not that it should give "massive XP."

I combine the idea that players play for max XP/min while leveling with your desire for additional XP to be the "carrot" to run reaper, and I come up with a probable solution that devs would implement.

When Legendary raids were lacking in replayability, devs boosted their XP by huge amounts. You really expect something different from reaper?

[nokowi]

It is fun how the 2nd thread with more views and replies is about rewards when this should, in theory, be all about challenge and fun playtime but... whatever

If you connected the ideas that some players want rewards for challenge, and that the reward is what makes the challenge "fun" in the long term, you would understand.

[Qezuzu]

When Legendary raids were lacking in replayability, devs boosted their XP by huge amounts. You really expect something different from reaper?

Legendary raids are close to cap, have a timer, and on elite are often PUG'd or guild ran only, only accepting capped characters. Even with massive XP, they were never going to be ran for XP that often, especially on elite. Reaper is much different.

I just don't see the problem with having reaper be a valid source of XP, you'll have to state your argument more clearly.

[JOTMON]

Legendary raids are close to cap, have a timer, and on elite are often PUG'd or guild ran only, only accepting capped characters. Even with massive XP, they were never going to be ran for XP that often, especially on elite. Reaper is much different.

I just don't see the problem with having reaper be a valid source of XP, you'll have to state your argument more clearly.

Reaper then doesn't represent optional 'challenge' it becomes the new must run at to get into xp groups.
Even faster XP circuits for the top of the game players.
It would create a bigger divide between those that can reaper and those that cant.

[eris2323]

If all you get out of reaper is pets and cosmetics, the system failed me, and I'm not at all interested, and frankly, I won't be playing it.

Why waste my time for 'bragging rights' in a PVE game?

[Selvera]

Reaper should be a valid source of XP, reaper should not be the best source of XP. Reaper should be a method for those who want a challenge to also gain levels, not a method for power-TR-train 1 week per life players to speed up their leveling.

Reaper should drop remnants at a higher rate than elite. Remnants are a reward that players can theoretically get regardless of if they’re a triple completionist or a new player, and the power level of rewards is reasonable for both. There should be more remnant rewards, and I’m specifically looking at new cosmetics and new augments (level 24 and 28 augments would be great! Same types as the lower level versions, and they would cost -a lot- of remnants).

Reaper should have a higher random loot table as is already implemented. This doesn’t introduce power creep except at cap, since a level 15 item is always a level 15 item no matter if you got it from a level 16 quest or a level 10 quest. Meanwhile it will only introduce power creep at cap if players manage to complete reaper mode tempest spine on LE during a loot weekend with a gem of fortune and then manage to roll a random item that has good effects on it... And maybe even then there should be a hard cap of how high random loot items can have an effective ML (40?), so that reaper doesn’t push it above this level, just lets people farm this level when not on loot weekends.

Reaper could theoretically drop rare loot items at a higher rate than elite. I’m talking about things like tomes, ioun stones and other very-rare drop items that are already accessible in all difficulty levels.

Reaper could have other cosmetic rewards, such as pets, pet tricks, or mirrors of glammoring as very rare drops.

Reaper could have leaderboards, possibly the "best" score would be who can complete reaper difficulty X at Y player level, where higher difficulties beet lower difficulties, and lower player level (of the highest player level in the quest) beets higher player level at the same difficulty tier.

If I could think up a non-abusable way of increasing rewards for parties that pick a difficulty level appropriate for them instead of lower (easier farm) that would be ideal. However most metrics I can think of off the top of my head (number of deaths, time for completion, amount of damage taken/party healing done/buffs given) can be cheesed in lower-difficulty modes fairly easily.

[Pyed-Pyper]

If all you get out of reaper is pets and cosmetics, the system failed me, and I'm not at all interested, and frankly, I won't be playing it.

Why waste my time for 'bragging rights' in a PVE game?

The purported raison d'être of Reaper is to 'provide challenge' to the ubergamers bored by whatever current top difficulty exists.

If that is the case, then there should be no reward that increases a character's power (e.g. experience point boost above current, xp stones, mysterious remnants, Reaper boosts to chest loot). The 'reward' is in the doing, not in the getting.

If the real purpose of Reaper Mode is to be the new "Elite" difficulty setting, then people (Turbine) should be honest about that.

[nokowi]

Legendary raids are close to cap, have a timer, and on elite are often PUG'd or guild ran only, only accepting capped characters. Even with massive XP, they were never going to be ran for XP that often, especially on elite. Reaper is much different.

Reaper is like running shroud on LH when you make XP the reward. Your capable of 6 skulls and you run 2 skulls for max XP/min. Just like you farm LH shroud even though you are capable of LE shroud.

Why would you run LE shroud at cap when you can run it LH while leveling and get more XP?


You want to make XP an additional reward which means nothing to those capped toons, but does mean something to those trying to get max XP min.

Sounds like a failure to me.

[nokowi]

The purported raison d'être of Reaper is to 'provide challenge' to the ubergamers bored by whatever current top difficulty exists.

If that is the case, then there should be no reward that increases a character's power (e.g. experience point boost above current, xp stones, mysterious remnants, Reaper boosts to chest loot). The 'reward' is in the doing, not in the getting.

If the real purpose of Reaper Mode is to be the new "Elite" difficulty setting, then people (Turbine) should be honest about that.

Many players were honest about

1) wanting a difficulty setting where they are challenged
2) having a reason to run that difficulty
3) not wanting powercreep that negates challenge

It's the players who demand no reward at all, who are not ubergamers, and wont play on the higher difficulty settings that cause a problem.



Now for those that will play on difficult settings, they "value" a variety of different things.

Good game design would provide as many of these as they can, as long as it does not violate 3).



Those who hate the idea of reaper, try to remove 2) by demanding no rewards in the guise of: any reward is automatically power creep that will ruin the challenge --> which is complete nonsense.

[eris2323]

The purported raison d'être of Reaper is to 'provide challenge' to the ubergamers bored by whatever current top difficulty exists.

If that is the case, then there should be no reward that increases a character's power (e.g. experience point boost above current, xp stones, mysterious remnants, Reaper boosts to chest loot). The 'reward' is in the doing, not in the getting.

If the real purpose of Reaper Mode is to be the new "Elite" difficulty setting, then people (Turbine) should be honest about that.

I am not interested in fighting a forum war for 10 posts.

I simply post that if there is no reason for me to play, I won't waste my time, and that I find remnants, pets, and cosmetics to be totally useless, and NOT worth my time.

I'm all for making it as difficult as possible, but without a reason to play it, not going happen for me.

I'd like to see what Turbines plans are, though.

[lyrecono]

I agree...there needs to be some reward to keep people coming back. Novelty will wear off after a week or so...it needs something to provide staying power.

I personally am an advocate for public leader boards. People love to see their name in lights. Back in the 80's when got your name to the top of the leader board of your favorite arcade game...you would blow a whole sleeve of quarters to regain your spot if some once knocked you off the top.

I know that a lot of people don't like this idea...but I think it would work.

If you wanted staying power, why not ask for balanced Eberron quests? you know, the kind of stuff that kept players here instead of the stuff of late (like some silly reaper mode)
As for the leader board, i have never seen or heard anyone talking about them, ever in the history of DDO.
Never did i hear/see someone talk about the board in general, their place on it or about other people on it.
I pug everyday, i run in 4 elitists channels and in a elite guild, use 3 different 3rd party voice chat programs, never did anyone think talking about the leader boards was important enough to do so.

As for the arcade analogy, i used to work in such a business, every now and then we took of the glass panel(pinball) or opened the cabinet(arcade video game) to manually enter our name. the only difference was that once in a blue moon some jerk came around and man handled the machines to get his score back up there, which led to more repairs which meant more spare parts and my time wasted soldering.
Most money just came from casual gamers, not through the abusive jerks, they cost more money due to the repairs.
Another way your analogy fails is the reason why arcade games were so hard, they were meant to eat your cash, so whats turbine's angle in this? hoping to sell more rez cakes?

I think it was popular...Turbine just didn't support it for what ever reason. Just like MYDDO...that was a very popular tool...yet Turbine ended support and turned it off.

And everybody knows what happens when you start to ASSUME.

MYDDO was often used as a gear check by elitist jerks, i'm glad it's gone

It should be noted I haven't tried it (and clearly stated this earlier), so thanks for the clarification.

You have a group of players that must play the most OP builds in the game to have fun, and they should have a good time finding the new "best" builds in reaper mode. The changes seem to gate which builds are good and bad (non tank melee being awful in particular), rather than bringing all players to the table.

Giving players abilities such as melee cc, only to negate it in reaper is a design failure of the highest magnitude. That's the only option melee has to reduce damage taken. If you argue teamwork, why isn't a ranged toon better in every way with the same cc from the party?

I fully expect certain builds to be labeled as "bad" players if they show up in reaper. It reminds me of when the monchers were "good" players simply because they chose the easiest button in the game (and while this level of power was totally unnecessary). This is not what I was looking for when I think of "group" play and teamwork.

I spend a lot of time in endgame circles, many of the so called end game "LE" people are decent players, not great but decent, many get their fame by being or playing a 1 trick pony exploit builds.
Often their teamwork is terrible, their understanding of play styles that differ from their own poor, add in clashing ego's, Epeening and you'll still find them looking down on others.
The biggest difference between them and the newer players is the 8+ years of grinding every bit of gear and past life in the game.
All they did was change numbers, used exploits, exploit builds and learned how to abuse the poor excuse DDO has for an AI. Take that away and you're left with a bunch of mediocre gamers, at best.

This reaper mode will do the same it did years ago when stormhorns, these peeps will use their vast resources to tr into the latest cookie cutter build and distance themselves from those that don't.



As for this thread, i vote against anything but cosmetics, the gap between the top and the average player i big enough as it is.
Here's my suggestion for a cosmetic for those "elite people"

Spend more time with their family, kids, friends, community instead of looking for validation in a video game by excluding 90% of the toons on the server.
I see no reason to reward players for this kind of exclusive behavior inn a pve game based of dungeons and dragons.