Drow TWF Rogue Build Request - Probably Assassin

[Dulcimerist]

Trying to get all of my old characters from the ancient enhancement system updated so I can play them again, I have a level 13 Drow Rogue needing some love. She was a TWF finesse DEX Rogue that had been a Mechanic for the grease-spewing "tank" to diplo-dump aggro onto, with a plan to switch to Assassin at a higher level. It's time for her to become a TWF Assassin, and I'd like to stay pure Rogue.

DPS melee, survivability, and trap disabling are my priorities, in that order. She does like her rapiers and short swords.

This character has a +4 Supreme Ability Tome available because I love her.

Thanks!

[blerkington]

I changed my main into an assassin recently. It's effective and a lot of fun to play all the way up to and including LE content.

I found the work of CThruTheEgo, Nokowi and Slarden to be very useful. They all have threads where they talk about how to build and gear rogue assassins, so take a look.

Thanks.

[unbongwah]

Do you want to be DEX- or INT-based (req's Harper)? Fortunately, your +4 Supreme tome makes either doable. Either of slarden's builds is easy to adapt for drow:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...x-Assassin-1-0
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Assassin-Build

Assassins past lvl 12 work best with kukris or daggers due to Knife Specialization bonuses; although Balizarde is still a reasonable ML:23 option since I'm pretty sure Lethality works with it. A pair of GotLs works well for lvl 12-13: note the d10 base dmg.

[Dulcimerist]

Do you want to be DEX- or INT-based (req's Harper)? Fortunately, your +4 Supreme tome makes either doable. Either of slarden's builds is easy to adapt for drow:
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...x-Assassin-1-0
https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...Assassin-Build

Assassins past lvl 12 work best with kukris or daggers due to Knife Specialization bonuses; although Balizarde is still a reasonable ML:23 option since I'm pretty sure Lethality works with it. A pair of GotLs works well for lvl 12-13: note the d10 base dmg.

I don't have Harper, although I should eventually get it for most of my characters. The Halfling DEX build mentioned above looks close to what I'm looking for. Thanks!

Converting it to Drow looks like I'd grab the DEX and Spell Resistance core racial enhancements. Nothing else in the tree is a worthwhile use of APs. The Assassin's Knife Specialization would cause me to pass on the Xen'drik Weapon Training. Nothing is Hidden looks convenient, but spending my APs elsewhere to kill stuff is more convenient. Ambidexterity is really cool in concept, but so poorly put into practice as an enhancement that they might as well create an enhancement giving Drow an extra use of their nonexistent Dragonmark. Darkfire looks fun, but would be better on a CHA-based character. Improved Dodge looks like the only thing that might fit this build well, but I would have to stick an additional 3AP into garbage in order to unlock it. (A rank each in Keen Senses and Nothing is Hidden, or simply max Keen Senses, or grab Faerie Fire to goof around? Probably not, unless i need the entertainment factor.)

Looking at the above-mentioned DEX build, I could grab the two Assassin DEX enhancements for sure, and Light Armor Mastery could perhaps be maxed. Looking at the Thief-Acrobat tree, the two DEX enhancements and Improved Defensive Roll look nice. The 7AP for Drow DEX +2 and SR +6, 8AP for Rogue DEX +4, and an AP into either Improved Defensive Roll or Light Armor Mastery would replace the 16 leftover AP converting the build to Drow. (Skipping the final Drow SR +2 enhancement and dropping Light Armor Mastery to max Improved Defensive Roll would be tempting. Thoughts? Alternately, how about those 3AP into Shadow Dagger to blind an enemy prior to running in for melee?)

Why did I even look at the racial enhancements first? Racial enhancements are that dish that looks so delicious on the buffet that you want to cram it down after you're already full, only to end up tethered to a toilet for six hours.

Thanks!

[unbongwah]

Without Harper on a DEX Assassin, I would probably do something like 42 APs Assassin (capstone + tier-5s) / 27 APs Acrobat (Kip Up + No Mercy + Imp Defensive Roll) / 7 AP drow (max cores) with 4 APs left over to tweak things. Base stats on a first lifer are...DEX 20 CON 14 INT 12, I guess.

[Saekee]

most of the old racial trees are outdated. The drow ones are good if you are a pure monk that wants venomed blades, but they are too expensive.

[blerkington]

On the issue of whether or not to take knife specialisation, it really depends on how well geared you are already with rapiers and whether or not you plan to spend AP on racial weapon bonuses.

You might actually be the same or even ahead using rapiers, particularly while levelling. Knife seems to gets ahead at a certain point, but that's only when you reach the damage bonus where those x4 crits are more than making up for the lower base damage of knives.

The racial weapon bonuses are AP expensive though, and it's certainly arguable those points could be spent on better things. But deciding between knife and rapier might not actually be the no-brainer it's commonly said to be. Your rogue will certainly not be gimped if you stick with rapiers.

If anyone who is very proficient with DPS calculations thinks advice this is wrong, please say so and show your work. It would be useful to the OP and to me as well.

Thanks.

[unbongwah]

On the issue of whether or not to take knife specialisation, it really depends on how well geared you are already with rapiers and whether or not you plan to spend AP on racial weapon bonuses.

For lvls 1-11, use whatever weapons you have available. If you can craft, something like Keen of Bleeding kukris works well. Two good named options are SPD and TAB, both of which are Keen and provide DEX to-hit & dmg natively. I've even seen some players argue that Acrobat w/staff is better for low lvls, thanks to being able to front-load Acrobatics (+15% atk speed) and Quick Strike pretty early on. [Chieftain's Spear is a good option for that approach.]

Once you hit lvl 12, though, Knife Spec turns any dagger or kukri into 15-20/x3 weapons w/Imp Crit. There's nothing else in that level range which compares, especially if you use GotL (which I find on AH fairly regularly). Add in Deception gear like Backstabber's Gloves.

Things get a little more interesting after lvl 18 and you gain Lethality. Daggers / kukris become 15-20/x4 weapons, but so does Balizarde, which also has higher base dmg and some useful bonuses (Parrying, Good Luck, Dodge) if you don't have them slotted elsewhere. So that's a viable option for mid-epic lvls if you're either INT-based or don't mind taking Finesse.

[Wipey]

On the issue of whether or not to take knife specialisation, it really depends on how well geared you are already with rapiers and whether or not you plan to spend AP on racial weapon bonuses.

One thing to consider is that rapier is way more universal if you ever gonna tr into something else.
Radiance GS rapier is useful for many builds and will get you easily from 12 - Balizarde or Agony. Same with TF if you already have one perhaps.
Just add paralyzer for offhand., like LoD shortsword

For low levels, spec for staves and simple holy crafted one or whatever you can find.
Twf really sucks at low levels, single target and lower bab like rogue is, I wouldn't bother with any named bound weapons like Tiefling Blade that you outlevel in few hours and are useless in big chunk of the lower heroics - especially against undead.

Drow spell resist works really well in heroics, but respec out of it as soon as you hit 20.
You want scroll mastery as soon as you can scroll hjeal somewhat reliably, around Sands or GH.

[Dulcimerist]

Thanks for the weapon insight and advice!

At level 13, my finesse Rogue is dual-wielding Fell Rapiers of Ice, has Cutthroat Smallblade, a Sun Blade, and I believe a disruptor and paralyzer. Perhaps I should bank those, switch to Kukri, free up a feat slot by dropping Finesse, and switch Improved Crit over to Slashing. (I also need to drop Toughness for Precision.) Guardian of the Liturgy looks tempting, though; and now I notice it's a slashing dagger! I'm sold!

With Knife Spec, does Improved Crit double the enhancement's +1 crit range? I thought the Improved Crit did its doubling first, and then enhancements added on afterwards; making daggers a 16-20 in this case. Perhaps the way Keen is treated has me confused?

After a TR, I would likely level up with something like this until the effectiveness of TWF kicked in:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Staff_of_Nat_Gann

Back to the Drow build; feats would be Precision, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, IC: Slash, and two undecided feats. Weapon Focus to make Power Critical available? There's probably something better.

Thanks again!

[Saekee]

Thanks for the weapon insight and advice!

At level 13, my finesse Rogue is dual-wielding Fell Rapiers of Ice, has Cutthroat Smallblade, a Sun Blade, and I believe a disruptor and paralyzer. Perhaps I should bank those, switch to Kukri, free up a feat slot by dropping Finesse, and switch Improved Crit over to Slashing. (I also need to drop Toughness for Precision.) Guardian of the Liturgy looks tempting, though; and now I notice it's a slashing dagger! I'm sold!

With Knife Spec, does Improved Crit double the enhancement's +1 crit range? I thought the Improved Crit did its doubling first, and then enhancements added on afterwards; making daggers a 16-20 in this case. Perhaps the way Keen is treated has me confused?

After a TR, I would likely level up with something like this until the effectiveness of TWF kicked in:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Item:Staff_of_Nat_Gann

Back to the Drow build; feats would be Precision, TWF, ITWF, GTWF, IC: Slash, and two undecided feats. Weapon Focus to make Power Critical available? There's probably something better.

Thanks again!

knife spec gives daggers a crit profile of 15-20/3 (assuming IC: piercing) so they become identical to kukris for assassins. Most do IC: Piercing on rogues simply because almost all the named rogue weapons are daggers (there is really only one named kukri, disregarding entirely its heroic version, plus the blood machete,which you could use anyway before you get IC: piercing at level 12).

No one takes power critical but weapon focus: x can be used to boost melee power slightly. You can also take fun feats like Sap, or in the case of dex drow rogues, you may want to take quickdraw so as to use shurikens as a viable ranged weapon. Note, though, that throwing daggers get the same buff as regular daggers with knife specialization. Personally, I would leave weapon finesse (so you can wield mournlode maces against skellies, for example) and quickdraw at level 18 (since GTWF will be level 15)

[Saekee]

One thing to consider is that rapier is way more universal if you ever gonna tr into something else.
.

this is the key problem with crafting high-end daggers. Only a bard can really get decent use out of them if you plan to TR again, whereas a kukri has much better mileage with other melee classes.

[Dulcimerist]

knife spec gives daggers a crit profile of 15-20/3 (assuming IC: piercing) so they become identical to kukris for assassins. Most do IC: Piercing on rogues simply because almost all the named rogue weapons are daggers (there is really only one named kukri, disregarding entirely its heroic version, plus the blood machete,which you could use anyway before you get IC: piercing at level 12).

No one takes power critical but weapon focus: x can be used to boost melee power slightly. You can also take fun feats like Sap, or in the case of dex drow rogues, you may want to take quickdraw so as to use shurikens as a viable ranged weapon. Note, though, that throwing daggers get the same buff as regular daggers with knife specialization. Personally, I would leave weapon finesse (so you can wield mournlode maces against skellies, for example) and quickdraw at level 18 (since GTWF will be level 15)

Thanks for clarifying Improved Crit! For some reason I thought it applied to the printed damage type on a weapon, but now I see that it's based on the weapon type. Guardian of the Liturgy would then work with IC: Piercing, not Slashing.

My confusion regarding the dagger crit range with Knife Spec arises from the Improved Crit description here, where it mentions unmodified threat range:
http://ddowiki.com/page/Improved_Critical

Good point on keeping Weapon Finesse. Use of light maces and being able to continue using my existing weapons is very helpful.

For ranged on a high DEX character, is a repeating crossbow without proficiency a viable option? My rogue has a decent repeater, although I've been searching for a good returning shuriken. If Knife Spec works on throwing daggers, then does Dagger in the Back also give throwing daggers damage based on my DEX?

My rogue will soon be playable again. Thanks!

[unbongwah]

For ranged on a high DEX character, is a repeating crossbow without proficiency a viable option?

No: apart from the to-hit penalty, without proficiency, you fire it like a regular crossbow, not the thunk-thunk-thunk 3-shot burst. You could put one of your spare feats towards proficiency, but you'd want to put at least 11 APs into Mechanic to get INT to dmg. Even then, without ranged feats, your DPS would be questionable; you'd basically be counting on high RoF and high sneak atks to make up the difference.

[Saekee]

If Knife Spec works on throwing daggers, then does Dagger in the Back also give throwing daggers damage based on my DEX?

I am pretty sure it does give dex to damage. That said, you really don't need to have a ranged option in heroics other than the rare time you use the daggers, so I would not worry about it so much.

Stealth up to the baddies and nix'em; that is the ranged assassin...That is why a stealthy assassin needs to be fast and always invisible; see The Prowler in my sig (yours is a drow so it can't be a Thuranni assassin).

[Dulcimerist]

Thanks to both of you for the ranged clarifications! Sometimes I need to dispatch an enemy on a platform or other place I can't get to. Throwing dagger will be my situational ranged. (I wish I could use DEX for shuriken damage, but alas.)

The Prowler looks nice. Perhaps I'll take a look at Elf when I TR.

With this Drow build, if I want to use your Flaming Sphere Scroll or Long Broom of Mystery technique, will I likely need to be casting those farther from enemies since I have less stealth than The Prowler?

I've never messed with setting traps before, due to zergers. (Traps were in their early stages back then - back when everyone spammed the Marketplace area with noisemakers.) I should make web traps for sure, and possibly noisemakers?

[Saekee]

Thanks to both of you for the ranged clarifications! Sometimes I need to dispatch an enemy on a platform or other place I can't get to. Throwing dagger will be my situational ranged. (I wish I could use DEX for shuriken damage, but alas.)

The Prowler looks nice. Perhaps I'll take a look at Elf when I TR.

With this Drow build, if I want to use your Flaming Sphere Scroll or Long Broom of Mystery technique, will I likely need to be casting those farther from enemies since I have less stealth than The Prowler?

I've never messed with setting traps before, due to zergers. (Traps were in their early stages back then - back when everyone spammed the Marketplace area with noisemakers.) I should make web traps for sure, and possibly noisemakers?

The flaming sphere is a multi-use utility spell that is very handy for stealth. It breaks stealth when cast, though, whereas noisemakers do not do so. You should absolutely make noisemakers. The Prowler's stealth will be just like any dex rogue's stealth; it just gets a 1AP invisibility SLA from the archmage tree that is VERY handy and the barb run speed stacks. This just makes it faster and funner to do stealth stuff. DPS wise, the other rogues here are stronger and stronger in groups (since others will pull aggro, supposedly). You should get a stack of invisibility scrolls for some stealth missions like Claw of Vulkoor, or if there is a party wipe and they need you to gather soul stones in a nasty room.

You do not need the Long Broom since the flaming sphere scrolls are cheap to get and easily UMD'd by a rogue in heroic levels (anyone can really UMD them in epics). I ground out the Long Broom since they made it due to my thread and it is handy for ninjas with poor UMD skills.

[nokowi]

On the issue of whether or not to take knife specialisation, it really depends on how well geared you are already with rapiers and whether or not you plan to spend AP on racial weapon bonuses.

You might actually be the same or even ahead using rapiers, particularly while levelling. Knife seems to gets ahead at a certain point, but that's only when you reach the damage bonus where those x4 crits are more than making up for the lower base damage of knives.

The racial weapon bonuses are AP expensive though, and it's certainly arguable those points could be spent on better things. But deciding between knife and rapier might not actually be the no-brainer it's commonly said to be. Your rogue will certainly not be gimped if you stick with rapiers.

If anyone who is very proficient with DPS calculations thinks advice this is wrong, please say so and show your work. It would be useful to the OP and to me as well.

Thanks.

My testing showed knives eventually do 7% more damage than rapiers. I tested this in "theory" (calculations) and using real gear.

At lower levels you can swing a two handed weapon, or weapon + buckler better than you can TWF.

[blerkington]

My testing showed knives eventually do 7% more damage than rapiers. I tested this in "theory" (calculations) and using real gear.

At lower levels you can swing a two handed weapon, or weapon + buckler better than you can TWF.

This is very helpful. Currently the knives I have aren't as good as my rapiers, but I am working towards that goal.

When I tried to work it out the difference, my results were similar. For identically enchanted weapons I calculated a difference of 8% more for knives in the main hand and I think about 5-6% more for the offhand. It was a fairly rough approximation but it's reassuring to see it wasn't way off.

Hopefully this helps the OP too. If you've invested a lot of time into obtaining and crafting one type of weapon, it's good to know how much/little of a difference the effort of regearing actually makes.

Thanks.

[Dulcimerist]

My testing showed knives eventually do 7% more damage than rapiers. I tested this in "theory" (calculations) and using real gear.

At lower levels you can swing a two handed weapon, or weapon + buckler better than you can TWF.

Thanks! The rogue I'm trying to respec is at level 13, and is beginning to need better weapons. This might be the best time to convert to daggers. Thankfully I hadn't spent time trying to craft, loot, or purchase high-end rapiers and short swords yet.

Five years ago when I played this TWF character a lot, wielding two weapons even sucked back then. It was probably level 10 before I could effectively dual-wield, and I'd have to grab weapons with a +5 or +4 modifier.