Overpriced Racial Enhancements

[Dulcimerist]

Back when I started DDO six years ago with the old enhancement system, I chose races based on enhancements which would pair well with enhancements of the classes I chose. This can still be done in the new system, but seems a bit less common. Looking over some of the Drow racial enhancements, I've noticed a couple which seem to cost way more AP than they're worth; so I thought I'd start a thread to help list overpriced racial enhancements. This might help newer players avoid inefficient AP usage, or perhaps identify enhancements for developers to consider adjusting.

Drow:
Ambidexterity - Looks great for TWF Drow builds. However, 2AP per rank is too expensive for what it is. 6AP for +1 attack, +1% dodge, and +1 damage isn't all that worth it. Would it be more tempting if it was 1AP per rank, or if the 2AP per rank gave +2 bonuses?
Venomed Blades - If anyone was crazy enough to spend 15AP in the Drow enhancement tree, 1AP here for a d4 (average of 2.5) poison damage on weapons is nice. Additional points into this have diminishing returns - adding 1AP more for a d6 (average of 3.5) and 1AP more for a d8 (average of 4.5). The initial 2.5 average damage with 1AP is a decent deal, but adding another 2AP doesn't even double the output of the first rank. Having the progression of ranks as d4, d8, and d12 might be tempting.

Do some of the other races have a few inefficient enhancements? Am I nitpicking too much?

The Tier Four enhancements require a heavy investment in racial enhancements - APs which most builds can't afford. Do any of the races have Tier Four enhancements which are worth the investment?

I almost wish characters had bonus APs specifically to be put into racial enhancements.

[division]

I have the same issue with the Warforged racial tree. While some of the stuff on here is nice, it's simply too much AP for what it is to my barb (except healers friend, that's pretty much necessary), and putting those points into one of the other Barb trees (FB for the damage, Ravager for the survivability) gives much more value. I think the problem is that especially for classes that have undergone their passes, Turbine made the enhancement tree's mesh TOO well, making tons of enhancements in at least two trees useful for just about any build. This can be true even for classes who haven't got their pass yet either, such as Wizards for whom both archmage and palemaster trees are worth every point you can pump into them for the power they give a DC caster. Nobody can afford to spend 10+ AP's on their race when they need 36-40 AP in two different tree's to get the maximum power out of their character.

[Enguebert]

I agree that most racial enhancement are too weak compared to class enhancement

The only racial enhancement most people use are
1 AP for human action boost
Elf to unlock AA tree for non ranger AA
AP for dragonmarks
AP in halfling tree for more SA dice


Class that has been revamped offer more power for their AP than race.
IMHO, racial AP should either offer something exceptionnal (dragonmarks), allow certain build (like non ranger AA) or be very attractive like action boost

[Dulcimerist]

Perhaps they'll eventually do a pass through the racial enhancements, after they finish up with the class enhancement passes.

Here's a crazy idea: What if the racial enhancements were completely separate from the class enhancements, with distinct and separate race AP and class AP?. The class AP would be the 80 we normally earn through level 20. A separate racial AP could be given each time a character levels, and perhaps a character could start with 4 of them; which would end up being a total of 24 racial enhancement points earned through level 20.

I just want the devs to twist my arm into putting more of my APs into racial enhancements.

[lyrecono]

Back when I started DDO six years ago with the old enhancement system, I chose races based on enhancements which would pair well with enhancements of the classes I chose. This can still be done in the new system, but seems a bit less common. Looking over some of the Drow racial enhancements, I've noticed a couple which seem to cost way more AP than they're worth; so I thought I'd start a thread to help list overpriced racial enhancements. This might help newer players avoid inefficient AP usage, or perhaps identify enhancements for developers to consider adjusting.

Drow:
Ambidexterity - Looks great for TWF Drow builds. However, 2AP per rank is too expensive for what it is. 6AP for +1 attack, +1% dodge, and +1 damage isn't all that worth it. Would it be more tempting if it was 1AP per rank, or if the 2AP per rank gave +2 bonuses?
Venomed Blades - If anyone was crazy enough to spend 15AP in the Drow enhancement tree, 1AP here for a d4 (average of 2.5) poison damage on weapons is nice. Additional points into this have diminishing returns - adding 1AP more for a d6 (average of 3.5) and 1AP more for a d8 (average of 4.5). The initial 2.5 average damage with 1AP is a decent deal, but adding another 2AP doesn't even double the output of the first rank. Having the progression of ranks as d4, d8, and d12 might be tempting.

Do some of the other races have a few inefficient enhancements? Am I nitpicking too much?

The Tier Four enhancements require a heavy investment in racial enhancements - APs which most builds can't afford. Do any of the races have Tier Four enhancements which are worth the investment?

I almost wish characters had bonus APs specifically to be put into racial enhancements.

I have a similar issue with dwarfs, i get way more bang for my buck if i pick up class enh instead of the (very expensive) throw your weight around.
A rog repeater build can get int to hit and damage very cheaply, the dwarf has to spend a lot of points and still has to gear to the max to hit LE mobs

[Thrudh]

My main has been a halfling for 8+ years.

Currently, I have zero AP in halfling enhancements. He's only still a halfling because it would destroy my immersion to change his race now.

I LOVED the healing dragonmarks for years. Once epic destinies came out, their healing power became much weaker and not worth the cost. If the dragonmark heals would regen (or even use SP), I would maybe pick them up again. 5 heals in many EE or LE quests/raids between shrines is not enough.

[JOTMON]

Most of the racial enahncments are prohibitive and overly costly.
have to seleect a lot of BS enhancements to build up to the almost interesting ones...

Things like
Nothing is Hidden:
Drow/morninglord/elf.. 5 AP to unlock then 3 tiers of 2AP ea for a total of 11AP...
Shadar Kai - 15 AP to unlock then 3 tiers of 2AP ea for a total of 21AP... ugh..... just to autofind traps without manually searching..

10AP more than the elves.. way to screw over shadarkai.. and the rogue class cant train this in any rogue enhancement tree ... no feat option either..

WF/BF weapon attatchment..
heal amps..
repair amps...

lots more poorly developed racial buildups.. the cost vs benefit prices are too high so ultimately I end up dumping racial other than a few core points for stats.. and possibly some low hanging fruit..

[Qhualor]

I have a similar issue with dwarfs, i get way more bang for my buck if i pick up class enh instead of the (very expensive) throw your weight around.
A rog repeater build can get int to hit and damage very cheaply, the dwarf has to spend a lot of points and still has to gear to the max to hit LE mobs

I guess it would depend on what dwarf build you are playing, but my Vanguard fighter dwarf happily takes the enhancements up to TYWA. Iron Stomach x2, axe training, tactical DCS and hit points are all good. He is no where near twinked out or anything like that and he has no problems hitting LE mobs.

[elvesunited]

Racial enhancements require a goal. Something in there worth going for. ( damage / spellpower / critical / arcane archer ) Otherwise can be ignored

My examples:

Deep Gnome Artificer -> 17 racial as I wanted both +20 spellcraft , +2 Int, +1 crit range, +6 to hit, +6 to damage, +4 dodge, +6 MRR. As the most recent race tree, deep gnome is not like the others. It's got some power behind it.

Elf Monk Ranger Favored Archer -> 20 racial for arcane archer plus bow damage. also helps that monk trees have zero synergy with archer.

Sun Elf Favored Soul light/force caster -> 16 racial for +30 light spellpower, rejuvenation, +2 Int. Not really that great but what options do I have? Favored has two class trees of which Angel is the capstone and Warpriest enhancements go melee ( and no longer of value for a distance caster ) after a moderate investment.

[FranOhmsford]

I've said over and over again that Racial Enhancements should be given FREE as we level as they're supposed to be innate to the character {not GH or Recon or anything , not the silly op stuff but the general stuff}.

Races should be significantly different to each other - At the moment they're just not.


As for that silly op stuff like GH and Recon - Well Characters of those Races could get a Feat like choice at say Lvl 15 and 20 as a sort of Capstone to his/her/its racial abilities.

[FranOhmsford]

Racial enhancements require a goal. Something in there worth going for. ( damage / spellpower / critical / arcane archer ) Otherwise can be ignored

My examples:

Deep Gnome Artificer -> 17 racial as I wanted both +20 spellcraft , +2 Int, +1 crit range, +6 to hit, +6 to damage, +4 dodge, +6 MRR. As the most recent race tree, deep gnome is not like the others. It's got some power behind it.

Yes, Deep Gnome's a decent Tree - It's not great though and 17 AP spent in Race is 17 you don't have for Class {This being generally Wizard that's going to hurt!}.

Elf Monk Ranger Favored Archer -> 20 racial for arcane archer plus bow damage. also helps that monk trees have zero synergy with archer.

Elf AA is far far too expensive - Seriously!

The rest of the Elf tree is pretty terrible.

Sun Elf Favored Soul light/force caster -> 16 racial for +30 light spellpower, rejuvenation, +2 Int. Not really that great but what options do I have? Favored has two class trees of which Angel is the capstone and Warpriest enhancements go melee ( and no longer of value for a distance caster ) after a moderate investment.

The FavSoul Trees are awful anyway which means yes a FavSoul can go into Morninglord.
BUT
As you've said Sun Elf isn't all that good either!

Bladeforged, PDK, Deep Gnome and Human/Drow are likely all better options.

[TDarkchylde]

Giving separate enhancement points for racials may have to be the way to go. Part of the problem is that there's too much power in lots of the class trees, especially the ones that have seen recent passes. With a few exceptions, there's rarely any reason to go further than 1-5 points into a racial tree when much juicier stuff awaits in the class trees.

[silinteresting]

drow tree is 9 points for +2 charisma and +1 enchantment, that's not to sad for a enchanter bard.

elf tree is 17 points for +1 enchantment, 100 spell points, +3 spell pen and fey energy tap. perhaps
2 or 3 points over priced but overall not to bad for a few caster builds.

your friend sil

[elvesunited]

Yes, Deep Gnome's a decent Tree - It's not great though and 17 AP spent in Race is 17 you don't have for Class {This being generally Wizard that's going to hurt!}.



Elf AA is far far too expensive - Seriously!

The rest of the Elf tree is pretty terrible.



The FavSoul Trees are awful anyway which means yes a FavSoul can go into Morninglord.
BUT
As you've said Sun Elf isn't all that good either!

Bladeforged, PDK, Deep Gnome and Human/Drow are likely all better options.

Well my Deep Gnome is an artificer not a wizard. And artificer is another class where the class enhancement trees get pretty sparse. And the Deep Gnome tree is much friendlier to artificers than wizards.

Elf Arcane Archer is a goal in itself. You go that route and you leaving crumbs for the class trees. Not that it matters much. 11 points to get Sniper shot from deepwood and there isn't much left after that. ( my final tally was 21 AP Elf, 42 AP Elf Arcane Archer, 11 AP deepwood, 3 AP Warpriest, 3 AP Harper )

This sun elf favored soul is centered around in part getting Sun Bolt as a free to cast spell as part of the angel of vengeance capstone. ( It's a cannon ) That limits him to sun elf, PDK, Shaider-kai, and new addition Deep Gnome. PDK and Shaider have nothing for spell casters.
But Deep gnome ......

+20 spell craft, +4 Wis, -2 Charisma, +4 Dodge, +6 MRR, Illusionary Escape, +3 all saves ( 3 AP left to spend in Harper or Warpriest or Angel )
vs
+30 light, +2 Int, Rejuvenation, +50 Spell points, +1 Enchantment save, +2 spell penetration

Deep Gnome wasn't available the last time he reincarnated. This is more of a difficult choice.

[RobbinB]

3 ranks of "nothing is hidden" in the elf tree is insane at a total cost of 6ap. It is a convenience feat only as it doesn't actually make your character "more powerful" in terms of your ability to complete content. At worst it should be 1 ap per level and possibly have only 2 levels.

(Slightly offtopic, but ditto for the free eschew materials and extend enhancements in Harper - the first is strictly a convenience feat, while the second requires tier 5 lockout - they should be 1 ap only.)

[Xiongrey]

Perhaps they'll eventually do a pass through the racial enhancements, after they finish up with the class enhancement passes.

Here's a crazy idea: What if the racial enhancements were completely separate from the class enhancements, with distinct and separate race AP and class AP?. The class AP would be the 80 we normally earn through level 20. A separate racial AP could be given each time a character levels, and perhaps a character could start with 4 of them; which would end up being a total of 24 racial enhancement points earned through level 20.

I just want the devs to twist my arm into putting more of my APs into racial enhancements.

I like this idea. Maybe they could even give people the option to spend regular AP in the racial tree on top of your idea for those that may want to invest more AP into a racial tree. If that is too difficult to implement then they should just go with your idea, or even if it was just one AP per heroic level, it would help.

[elvesunited]

3 ranks of "nothing is hidden" in the elf tree is insane at a total cost of 6ap. It is a convenience feat only as it doesn't actually make your character "more powerful" in terms of your ability to complete content. At worst it should be 1 ap per level and possibly have only 2 levels.

(Slightly offtopic, but ditto for the free eschew materials and extend enhancements in Harper - the first is strictly a convenience feat, while the second requires tier 5 lockout - they should be 1 ap only.)

Most trees have junk in them even class trees. For example Enlightened Spirit ( a powerful tree ) has imbue summons and displace summons. Summons are near useless and the few instances where they are useful are so specific that dedicating AP to them would be folly. Some class trees could even be referred to as junk. Radiant Servant ( any high level divine caster can pretty much heal anyone to full with a single spell cast given decent equipment making a healing tree redundant ) Eldritch Knight ( the weak enhancements don't in any way compensate that you're taking a character with wizard hp into melee combat )

[RobbinB]

Most trees have junk in them even class trees. For example Enlightened Spirit ( a powerful tree ) has imbue summons and displace summons. Summons are near useless and the few instances where they are useful are so specific that dedicating AP to them would be folly. Some class trees could even be referred to as junk. Radiant Servant ( any high level divine caster can pretty much heal anyone to full with a single spell cast given decent equipment making a healing tree redundant ) Eldritch Knight ( the weak enhancements don't in any way compensate that you're taking a character with wizard hp into melee combat )

So we agree they should look at the "junk" and at least ap price it better so it's "almost-not-junk" or "less-costly-junk"? Or are you saying we shouldn't adjust the costs or benefits of obviously weak enhancements?

[elvesunited]

So we agree they should look at the "junk" and at least ap price it better so it's "almost-not-junk" or "less-costly-junk"? Or are you saying we shouldn't adjust the costs or benefits of obviously weak enhancements?

I'm thinking the current plan of putting thought into each enhancement pass is probably the best option rather than to slap dash a bunch of AP cost changes that won't really address the issues. ( are you really considering "Nothing is Hidden" even if was cheaper? ) And that there are class trees that are in just as bad shape as some of race trees.

[FranOhmsford]

( are you really considering "Nothing is Hidden" even if was cheaper? )

IN-GAME rather than on the forums there are plenty of people who take Nothing is Hidden!

It's a major quality of life option and a huge boon to newbies and more casual players who don't know where all the traps are!

Yes it should be cheaper because as you've pointed out - To a Vet it's useless! They can't even see why others might take it and put down those who do!

Really it may as well be a single enhancement giving the full benefit for 1ap - The Vets still wouldn't take it but it wouldn't be such a drain on the newbie's AP {And no, I don't take it - I memorized where all the traps are long ago!}.