The Prowler: Covert Assassin of House Thuranni

[Tagedieb]

Thx for your answers.
@ Dalros: i have e Golden Guile and ring of deceit to choose from and i have Artillery too. Really nice variant, you build there btw. i especially liked your mellee pick version.
Im still leaning towards testing the AA Rogue as it brings so much new stuff and i already have played a mech for some time.

I think at least while using Adrenaline Tf should be similiar to epic sapphire sting as u will crit anyway.

Together with many shot, slayer arrow and Adrenaline and power boost of assassin, i expect absolut Insane burstdmg.
If the sneak attack dmg of Rogue and scion of ethereal is affected by Adrenaline, which it should, Scion of Ethereal is really the way to go.
So a common attack rotation would be: activate power boost and many shot >pin >activate adrenaline>Arrow of Slaying.
(really never played aa or ranger if this rotation is obvious for everyone)
I guess pin is absolutly crucial to induce helpness and get your sneak attacks. i Never played it though. Is it enough together with imp. decpetion?

Otherwise an int build with traps, better disarming, higher dmg from kta and even higher spellpower might really be an option. Maybe i would take scion of Air or Earth here.
As i lack powerboost anyway and the elemental dmg is not affected by it. So the int build would trade burstdmg vs more sustainable dmg. this also would net +2 to the dc of paralyzing Arrow.
The big Contra here is the loss of Power boost of assassin and lower dmg from scion.

So what would you prefer Int or dex AA? do you have some experience with Pin?
The other open question is wheter to try to get a decent Paralyzing dc and maybe make wis your main attribute or just ditch it.
Any opinions?

[Saekee]

Thx for your answers.
@ Dalros: i have e Golden Guile and ring of deceit to choose from and i have Artillery too. Really nice variant, you build there btw. i especially liked your mellee pick version.
Im still leaning towards testing the AA Rogue as it brings so much new stuff and i already have played a mech for some time.

I think at least while using Adrenaline Tf should be similiar to epic sapphire sting as u will crit anyway.

Together with many shot, slayer arrow and Adrenaline and power boost of assassin, i expect absolut Insane burstdmg.
If the sneak attack dmg of Rogue and scion of ethereal is affected by Adrenaline, which it should, Scion of Ethereal is really the way to go.
So a common attack rotation would be: activate power boost and many shot >pin >activate adrenaline>Arrow of Slaying.
(really never played aa or ranger if this rotation is obvious for everyone)
I guess pin is absolutly crucial to induce helpness and get your sneak attacks. i Never played it though. Is it enough together with imp. decpetion?

Otherwise an int build with traps, better disarming, higher dmg from kta and even higher spellpower might really be an option. Maybe i would take scion of Air or Earth here.
As i lack powerboost anyway and the elemental dmg is not affected by it. So the int build would trade burstdmg vs more sustainable dmg. this also would net +2 to the dc of paralyzing Arrow.
The big Contra here is the loss of Power boost of assassin and lower dmg from scion.

So what would you prefer Int or dex AA? do you have some experience with Pin?
The other open question is wheter to try to get a decent Paralyzing dc and maybe make wis your main attribute or just ditch it.
Any opinions?

I think it depends on whether you will solo or not. A Dex-based burst AA will be stealthy and you could even experiment with SD over Fury. Note that the mechanic tree also could be used for archery, taking the level 18 core--not as exciting as AA but still decent, at least until the elvin tree gives the higher cores.
I think it could be a fun experiment and a nice way to explore the game while we are stuck with the aggro mechanics

[Dalros]

Dex wise you will get more damage from Scion of Ethereal and SA is increased by adrenaline but issue will be kiting with the current aggro system. In large area setting it would not be an issue but bad in small space. So need ways to either mitigate incoming damage or avoid it completely.

Regarding Pin, it is an ability best used on non moving target, which induces helplessness and allowing SA damage. Improved deception is for the SA proc even if mob aggro on you meaning all the time in soloing allowing SA damage in that even. I will recommend twisting both Pin and Otto's Whistler.

Pin - Used on non moving Mob
Otto's - Dances Moving Mob

For Combo usage which can alternate easily. When pin mob still move in Million Dollar Man movement and you can time it so you can use Otto's whistler to dance it, Pin again, rinse repeat until dead or you miss the shot.

For int bow usage, you can set up traps prior engaging large groups, some damage and cc or a lot of cc which you can bait them to. Max trap able to be set is 8, i tried 10 but it start to bug out. Combine both Web and Glittering dust traps for best effect. Using pin and otto on stragglers or at your leisure

[Saekee]

Dex wise you will get more damage from Scion of Ethereal and SA is increased by adrenaline but issue will be kiting with the current aggro system. In large area setting it would not be an issue but bad in small space. So need ways to either mitigate incoming damage or avoid it completely.

Regarding Pin, it is an ability best used on non moving target, which induces helplessness and allowing SA damage. Improved deception is for the SA proc even if mob aggro on you meaning all the time in soloing allowing SA damage in that even. I will recommend twisting both Pin and Otto's Whistler.

Pin - Used on non moving Mob
Otto's - Dances Moving Mob

For Combo usage which can alternate easily. When pin mob still move in Million Dollar Man movement and you can time it so you can use Otto's whistler to dance it, Pin again, rinse repeat until dead or you miss the shot.

For int bow usage, you can set up traps prior engaging large groups, some damage and cc or a lot of cc which you can bait them to. Max trap able to be set is 8, i tried 10 but it start to bug out. Combine both Web and Glittering dust traps for best effect. Using pin and otto on stragglers or at your leisure

Excellent! And happy new year to you both!

[Dalros]

Another option which i just remembered, in regard for Int AA, High int means high spell craft = more spell power = elemental imbue damage boost. Along with KtA damage boost i expect the damage would be a nice pretty number

[Tagedieb]

Hey Good new year
@Dalros thats why i wrote more spellpower on the int positives.
I think both dex and int are worth it.
i will need to pause ddo for a while though. Maybe aggro is fixed afterwards otherwise i will try one of them.

[Tagedieb]

Hey Folks
Just dipng in. Still nothing new on the aggromechanic form the devs?

[Dalros]

Still the same at the moment but a little birdie told me some scale back in the next update, not sure how much or what precise changes will be. *sidenote i'm having a blast on my pure deep gnome shintao monk*

[Saekee]

yes, should get a tweaking or two--only good news is that Shiv is working properly--was actually diafunctional for a long time

[Tagedieb]

The next Update will bring some good changes: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...44#post5288744

" Bluff's difficulty scaling has been toned down.
Shiv's bluff now effects red-named bosses again for the purposes of Sneak Attack.
Monster assist range has been reduced. Monsters will not share aggro if a player in stealth kills them, unless their friends are actually looking at them. This allows assassins to attack monster packs in stealth as long as they also manage monster sight lines."

I still will Tr into the rogue AA. I wonder if killing a mob no other mob is looking at from stealth with a fury slayer arrow one shot, will also not lead to an aggro share. This way not only the assassin but also the rogue AA would profit from the incoming aggrochange.

there are a few Problems though with the Tr:
A: Totally feat starved. You can either take Precision or Dragonmarks unfortunatly. Atm. im leaning to take the dragon marks as i have Chimera Crown, which was a hell of a grind. i try to get assassins trick to replace precision.
And you can either take Quicken or Extend. If i take dragonmarks i will take Extend ofc.

B: Enhancement Point starved. you need at least 23 points in elf to get aa and dex to dmg, leaving only 13 (3 ta, 41 aa) to play with,
For that reason the ranger 6 version will have actualy more Sa dice than the Rogue version unfortunatly and have more feats and snipershot available and can stack faster sneaking from DWS and Ass. Our version has 5% more movement from ta, more skill points, 2 semiuseful rogue feats and magical training from wiz. its just a little badder, but i hope it will hold its ground and be fun nevertheless. If i like it a lot i might roll the Dws version too.

atm im planing to get wis high to have paralyzing arrows as cc option.
i want to do the dex version, mainly as the build cant afford insightful reflexes because its already so feat starved and i hate to die from traps while disarming them.

Well.......sry for the wall of text. I wanted to share the changes and some thoughts. any ideas regarding the AA build are welcome.
All have Fun
Tagedieb

[Saekee]

The next Update will bring some good changes: https://www.ddo.com/forums/showthrea...44#post5288744

" Bluff's difficulty scaling has been toned down.
Shiv's bluff now effects red-named bosses again for the purposes of Sneak Attack.
Monster assist range has been reduced. Monsters will not share aggro if a player in stealth kills them, unless their friends are actually looking at them. This allows assassins to attack monster packs in stealth as long as they also manage monster sight lines."

I still will Tr into the rogue AA. I wonder if killing a mob no other mob is looking at from stealth with a fury slayer arrow one shot, will also not lead to an aggro share. This way not only the assassin but also the rogue AA would profit from the incoming aggrochange.

there are a few Problems though with the Tr:
A: Totally feat starved. You can either take Precision or Dragonmarks unfortunatly. Atm. im leaning to take the dragon marks as i have Chimera Crown, which was a hell of a grind. i try to get assassins trick to replace precision.
And you can either take Quicken or Extend. If i take dragonmarks i will take Extend ofc.

B: Enhancement Point starved. you need at least 23 points in elf to get aa and dex to dmg, leaving only 13 (3 ta, 41 aa) to play with,
For that reason the ranger 6 version will have actualy more Sa dice than the Rogue version unfortunatly and have more feats and snipershot available and can stack faster sneaking from DWS and Ass. Our version has 5% more movement from ta, more skill points, 2 semiuseful rogue feats and magical training from wiz. its just a little badder, but i hope it will hold its ground and be fun nevertheless. If i like it a lot i might roll the Dws version too.

atm im planing to get wis high to have paralyzing arrows as cc option.
i want to do the dex version, mainly as the build cant afford insightful reflexes because its already so feat starved and i hate to die from traps while disarming them.

Well.......sry for the wall of text. I wanted to share the changes and some thoughts. any ideas regarding the AA build are welcome.
All have Fun
Tagedieb

thx for sharing! I have been gloom-and-doom for a bit, hoping this would happen. For better or worse, my time has been divided between a challenge farmer (level 16 parked) and my nude run.

For ranged versions--it is hard to beat a ranger 6 build since you get sniper shot--that alone is HUGE. I figured the bow might be just a fun reversal for an epic life and easier to do since you already have ground out a lot of dex gear. They will also be stealthy with high DEX and could run in SD with executioner's shot (33% chance instakill with high dex). I would drop the dragonmarks since as a ranged toon you tend to be out of the trouble, in which case quicken will work great with cocoon. OR you can take a small DPS hit and sub out Overwhelming critical for the dragonmarks (unless in Fury, in which case you really want to keep OC).

OTOH a mechanic, INT based, should be strong even without the capstone; you still gain barb running speed (kite speed...) boost. You will be mega-feat starved with a mechanic, though; you want insightful reflexes in there too so it will result in sacrifices of some sort.

I assume that the new mechanic will check if you are in stealth with the attack (so that means, basically, assassinate, Eldritch strike (not really good for epics) and SDK chain attacks). It may also result in using things like Flyby attack and Dire Charge from stealth (they don't break stealth) may get a buff.

If you can post here a new pic of your toon before you TR, I can update the OP!

[Tagedieb]

If you can post here a new pic of your toon before you TR, I can update the OP!

Well my toon hasnt changed, as i only did farm slavers 3 or trade since the aggromess. What kind of pic do u like? one with 90 Assasinate and some other stats shown? or just something nice in Shadowarmor or so?

I will definetly go back to the Prowler after the ranged TR, so there will be more achievements and stuff later in the year again.

and i want to try AA with cc option and fury burstdmg in any case, because i have either run any fury or bow build yet, and fury is one of the few destinies that still needs to be done anyway. thats why OC needs to stay. maybe i switch out the dragonmarks later though...

[Saekee]

Well my toon hasnt changed, as i only did farm slavers 3 or trade since the aggromess. What kind of pic do u like? one with 90 Assasinate and some other stats shown? or just something nice in Shadowarmor or so?

I will definetly go back to the Prowler after the ranged TR, so there will be more achievements and stuff later in the year again.

and i want to try AA with cc option and fury burstdmg in any case, because i have either run any fury or bow build yet, and fury is one of the few destinies that still needs to be done anyway. thats why OC needs to stay. maybe i switch out the dragonmarks later though...

Cool.

The pic I want is just like the first one in the thread--just with better pixels--a nice 3/4 angle shot of her holding the daggers, no need for even being in stealth or anything.

[Tagedieb]

Ok Played around a bit, hope u find something u like.

http://imgur.com/a/bU8aC Stalking

http://imgur.com/a/8N58o http://imgur.com/a/cE4AP Jumping

http://imgur.com/a/1GY5I http://imgur.com/a/Z7848 normal

http://imgur.com/a/My80E http://imgur.com/a/PNCLq http://imgur.com/a/QPPyh Fighting Pose

[Saekee]

Ok Played around a bit, hope u find something u like.

http://imgur.com/a/bU8aC Stalking

http://imgur.com/a/8N58o http://imgur.com/a/cE4AP Jumping

http://imgur.com/a/1GY5I http://imgur.com/a/Z7848 normal

http://imgur.com/a/My80E http://imgur.com/a/PNCLq http://imgur.com/a/QPPyh Fighting Pose

Oh boy those are nice! Thanks!

I think you need to fall in love with your character a little bit--I can totally see this going on with the outfit etc. Nice.

[Saekee]

some notes:
Racial reincarnation really favors builds like this that use racial trees so essentially the extra AP can go elsewhere. There is NO WAY I am grinding out 30 racial past lives or even completionist.

You can grab a couple more dex from racial past lives now (elf and halfling) which is really handy. I might do this.

Reaper cores can give a boost to dex outside reaper, so that is a fair goal.

The Reaper helm can add +2 stacking dex.

This all allows and improved assassinate DC. Ofc the aggro situation makes being an assassin rather difficult in solo content especially with reapers detecting stealthed toons

I have maybe 100K and my main will make it to epics--then either I will float there a bit or TR into the Prowler finally, we will see. I am torn between the Prowler and a scuttling build that stacks faster sneaking.

[seldarin]

Hi Saekee,

Firstly, really looks like a great build. I have a couple of questions:

1. Starting stat breakdown
2. Skills taken
3. Gear listing (if you have one)

I have been reading the thread and posts, and got a little lost. I currently have a rogue and a completionist character. I am not sure what to do with my completionist yet, but I am quite happy to TR my rogue. Are past lives a requirement for the build and if so which ones? I am currently on my third rogue life.
How does this character standup in toe to toe combat. Is it more orientated towards sneaking/assassinate, or can it fare just as well in general combat?

Cheers

Seldarin

[Saekee]

Hi Saekee,

Firstly, really looks like a great build. I have a couple of questions:

1. Starting stat breakdown
2. Skills taken
3. Gear listing (if you have one)

I have been reading the thread and posts, and got a little lost. I currently have a rogue and a completionist character. I am not sure what to do with my completionist yet, but I am quite happy to TR my rogue. Are past lives a requirement for the build and if so which ones? I am currently on my third rogue life.
How does this character standup in toe to toe combat. Is it more orientated towards sneaking/assassinate, or can it fare just as well in general combat?

Cheers

Seldarin

Hi, I have a first-life prowler on Wayfinder that has not advanced past 16 due to me playing my main on Cannith as well as the mess they made of stealth/assassinate. I am wary to go back to rogue; am not sure if I should do a speed stealth thrower which might make more sense.

starting stats are flexible; aim for max dex (and all level-ups there) and then high INT and CON. I haven't bothered laying them out exactly. It might depend on your tomes too.
skills--basic rogue stuff, ofc hide/move silently, search, disable, OL, spot, bluff--those are the key ones.
gear--with the new gear planner being so incredibly precise, I have stopped laying out gear for toons other than key parts for a build. I suggest the epic version of the Chimera Crown if you can get it, but it is a grind (but then, you would also be grinding for an EMG which is nice for assassins).

I am really torn as to do the Prowler of a 12 monk/6 ranger/2 rogue speed stealth thrower.

[Nightmanis]

So I really started looking into this build, and I've come up with some ideas.

Basically, all I've got figured out is a theoretical max endgame dps setup for the AA build.

I stuck with the 18 Rogue 1 Wizard 1 Barb Elf layout, though I dropped the dragonmark. You could easily swap wizard for fighter and gain it back, or swap barb for fighter to retain extend. You'll have a ridiculous run speed regardless. I'm unsure though how exactly you'll be able to get dex for damage with bows that way, though.

I also mainly just wanted to post this table to see if it's just wrong. The final gear grind is completely absurd, but it's still an end goal. This also involves an absolutely absurd Racial completionist because hey why not.

Basic setup:

Arcane Warrior (+20USP just for pew pewing)
Epic Spellpower: Force

Epic Sapphire Sting (+15 with AA cores and Runebow, +45 implement)
LGS Equipment Dex Skills/HP (total +39 bonus, 70hp) (DPS and HP only, not all that useful)
LGS Equipment Int Skills/SP (Total +39 bonus, 377sp) (Actually very useful for a rogue)
Slave Dex 17 Decept 14 Hide 22 Qual Dex 4
Slave Int 17 Force 185 Spellcraft 22 Qual Int 4 (Swap out for Legendary Chieftain for Para DC)
Leathers of the Celestial Sage (Spellpower and DC's)
Legendary Outpost Sniper Belt

In Dread, blitzing, during manyshot. All the monster dps and unrealistic BS.

Breakdown	Dexterity	Intelligence	Skill	Hide	Spellcraft	Spellpower	Amounts	Range Power	Amount
Starting	18	14	Leveling	23	23	Skill	145	Epic	30
Level	0	0	Item	22	22	AA	45	Manyshot	120
Tome	5	5	Quality	0	0	Equipment	185	Focus	0
Item	17	17	Stat	32	25	Insight	0	LD Core	18
Insightful	8	7	Tome	5	5	LeatherSage	27	Blitz	70
Exceptional	1	1	Insight	10	10	Implement	45	Prowess	8
Twists	0	0	Enhancement	3	0	Epic	10	Boost	0
Enhancement	5	0	LGS Skill	39	39	House J	20	-	-
Stance	0	0	Epic	10	10	Commendation	25	-	-
Destiny	0	0	GH	4	4	Arcane Warrior	20	-	-
Quality	4	4	Ship	3	3	Epic Destiny Feat	20	-	-
Litany	2	2	Camouflage	10	0	-	-	-	-
Festive	0	2	Good Luck	2	2	-	-	-	-
RR	2	1	Skill	163	142	-	-	-	-
Completion	2	2	Ethereal	81	-	-	-	-	-
Primal	0	0	SA dice	15	-	-	-	-	-
Tensers	4	0	Average Damage	52	-	-	-	-	-
Yugo	2	0	Gear	33	-	-	-	-	-
Potion	2	2	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Ship	2	2	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Total	74	59	Sneak Total	167	-	SP Total	519	RP Total	246
Modifier	32	24	SA Damage	866.73	-	Force Arrow	194.985	-	-

[Saekee]

So I really started looking into this build, and I've come up with some ideas.

Basically, all I've got figured out is a theoretical max endgame dps setup for the AA build.

I stuck with the 18 Rogue 1 Wizard 1 Barb Elf layout, though I dropped the dragonmark. You could easily swap wizard for fighter and gain it back, or swap barb for fighter to retain extend. You'll have a ridiculous run speed regardless. I'm unsure though how exactly you'll be able to get dex for damage with bows that way, though.

I also mainly just wanted to post this table to see if it's just wrong. The final gear grind is completely absurd, but it's still an end goal. This also involves an absolutely absurd Racial completionist because hey why not.

Basic setup:

Arcane Warrior (+20USP just for pew pewing)
Epic Spellpower: Force

Epic Sapphire Sting (+15 with AA cores and Runebow, +45 implement)
LGS Equipment Dex Skills/HP (total +39 bonus, 70hp) (DPS and HP only, not all that useful)
LGS Equipment Int Skills/SP (Total +39 bonus, 377sp) (Actually very useful for a rogue)
Slave Dex 17 Decept 14 Hide 22 Qual Dex 4
Slave Int 17 Force 185 Spellcraft 22 Qual Int 4 (Swap out for Legendary Chieftain for Para DC)
Leathers of the Celestial Sage (Spellpower and DC's)
Legendary Outpost Sniper Belt

In Dread, blitzing, during manyshot. All the monster dps and unrealistic BS.

Breakdown	Dexterity	Intelligence	Skill	Hide	Spellcraft	Spellpower	Amounts	Range Power	Amount
Starting	18	14	Leveling	23	23	Skill	145	Epic	30
Level	0	0	Item	22	22	AA	45	Manyshot	120
Tome	5	5	Quality	0	0	Equipment	185	Focus	0
Item	17	17	Stat	32	25	Insight	0	LD Core	18
Insightful	8	7	Tome	5	5	LeatherSage	27	Blitz	70
Exceptional	1	1	Insight	10	10	Implement	45	Prowess	8
Twists	0	0	Enhancement	3	0	Epic	10	Boost	0
Enhancement	5	0	LGS Skill	39	39	House J	20	-	-
Stance	0	0	Epic	10	10	Commendation	25	-	-
Destiny	0	0	GH	4	4	Arcane Warrior	20	-	-
Quality	4	4	Ship	3	3	Epic Destiny Feat	20	-	-
Litany	2	2	Camouflage	10	0	-	-	-	-
Festive	0	2	Good Luck	2	2	-	-	-	-
RR	2	1	Skill	163	142	-	-	-	-
Completion	2	2	Ethereal	81	-	-	-	-	-
Primal	0	0	SA dice	15	-	-	-	-	-
Tensers	4	0	Average Damage	52	-	-	-	-	-
Yugo	2	0	Gear	33	-	-	-	-	-
Potion	2	2	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Ship	2	2	-	-	-	-	-	-	-
Total	74	59	Sneak Total	167	-	SP Total	519	RP Total	246
Modifier	32	24	SA Damage	866.73	-	Force Arrow	194.985	-	-

barb with 18 rogue really flies--the wiz levels add the extra defenses so I really like them.
Since this build uses the racial tree so deeply, it means inherently that it would work great for someone with many racial past lives. I haven't done the AP but I imagine one could get elven grace, the AA tree, then maybe killer or KtA? Or some mechanic boosts? Since I will never be that player with the numerous racial past lives (right now I am doing a couple halfling ones while researching the ROGUE workbook), I can't say. I think people would prefer ranger levels for sniper shot, or monk for abundant step & extra feats, but this split would be one of the fastest. I suppose one could go bard/barb/ranger or bard/barb/6 fighter and get the displacement from bard spells.

I plan to return to this build post-halfling runs. Right now my main is 18 rogue/2 ranger which has been a lot of fun & functionality.