Towards a decent initial aggro system

[ValariusK]

Sustained aggro isn't in that bad of a place presently---that is, the aggro that a boss has during prolonged beatdowns. But presently initial aggro really needs some work.

Right now, what typically happens is that mobs tend to aggro very heavily on the person with the fewest HP. For instance, I was doing a run of kobold assault with one other multiple TR and a very poorly geared first lifer with like 60ish hit points. Kill counts were something like 90-something/90-something/5 or so. Clearly the 2 multi-trs were killing almost everything. Nevertheless, he got killed like 5-10 times. It wasn't that he was wading in and cleaving, or even that he was getting especially close (he was a shuriken build). It was that he was getting way more than 1/3 of the initial aggro.

Now, if we consider what would be intelligent tactics, one might formulate a rule:
Kill stuff that has the highest ratio of DPS to crunchiness first. If something is obviously massively increasing the crunchiness of your targets (like a cleric that is actually doing a lot of healing---but this is largely obsolete in the current meta), raise its target priority.

To implement this, I suggest making initial aggro work like this:
Take the fraction of kills done by a character, call that THREAT. You might also factor in level and class here if you want to get fancy.
Take the estimated crunchiness of the character (I suggest factoring in class and HP for a rough and ready estimate) call that RESIST.
Take the range/time to engage the character (ignore this for mostly ranged mobs and reduce it accordingly for really fast/teleporting mobs), call that DISTANCE
Adjust for each character's aggro bonus or penalty (enhancements, incite/diversion gear, etc).
So the initial aggro for each person would be (THREAT - RESIST - DISTANCE) * (1 + aggro modifier).

If you did something like this, you might see aggro that focuses on who the real threats are and less on 'let's smear the first lifer in a group of multi-TRs, over and over again. You might also see people actually taking threat bonus and malus gear and enhancements, since they'd affect your initial aggro share. (Hidden pro tip, for rogues/sneak attackers, make you HP as high as possible since you'll be able to sneak attack more things if your initial aggro is lower under the existing system). You'd also see less of hundreds of mobs running past the people who are killing them to chase the guys they haven't even had Line of sight on yet (who are probably first lifers with poor firepower and worse defense).

[Enoach]

The way the system is supposed to work for initial agro

1. Initial Sight - Basically first person noticed
2. Initial Damage * Hate Modifier

Now what should happen is that mobs should also target based on a Threat Type, Their Intelligence/Combat awareness etc.

Divines (Because they can prolong fights) <- Arcanes (Because they can disable and AoE naturally) <- Everyone else.

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Now based on your story, I imagine the issue was that your first life shuriken thrower was making contact with the mobs before any other party member. This is a common issue with ranged players, and has been noted on more than one occasion that Ranged Attacks seem to generate more Aggro than Melee.

There are two things that should occur to make this situation better without needing to complicate the matter on the calculation which can make it harder for Builds that utilize Aggro Management as a form of Crowd Control such as the Tank.

1. Fix the issue where range DPS has a higher Hate rating then melee
2. As a Ranged Person not wanting the Aggro - Learn to wait for initial aggro to be established before letting loose.

[ValariusK]

Enoach, I know its not initial sight, or initial hit. Frequently when I'm running I'm zerging ahead of the slower members of the party and stuff is running right by me trying to hunt down that 1st lifer that hasn't even seen or interacted yet with them. Its really quite obvious that initial aggro is broken.

[Elfishski]

Enoach, I know its not initial sight, or initial hit. Frequently when I'm running I'm zerging ahead of the slower members of the party and stuff is running right by me trying to hunt down that 1st lifer that hasn't even seen or interacted yet with them. Its really quite obvious that initial aggro is broken.

Yeah, sometimes it seems logical but certain builds are just aggro magnets no matter what in a slightly broken way that I bet is hard to diagnose. Recently I joined a Prison of the Planes quest with some friends on an underlevel/undergeared character. After getting smeared in a room or two I opted to do some level pulling for other rooms and the monsters in each subsequent room spent until they got killed plastered against the door trying to get to my character, who had obviously done nothing whatsoever to deserve it (other than locking them in a room with the more scary heroes, I guess?).

Not a bad suggestion in the OP while keeping it relatively simple, though I don't know if it would actually be simple to implement.

[Brandall]

Sustained aggro isn't in that bad of a place presently---that is, the aggro that a boss has during prolonged beatdowns. But presently initial aggro really needs some work.

Right now, what typically happens is that mobs tend to aggro very heavily on the person with the fewest HP. For instance, I was doing a run of kobold assault with one other multiple TR and a very poorly geared first lifer with like 60ish hit points. Kill counts were something like 90-something/90-something/5 or so. Clearly the 2 multi-trs were killing almost everything. Nevertheless, he got killed like 5-10 times. It wasn't that he was wading in and cleaving, or even that he was getting especially close (he was a shuriken build). It was that he was getting way more than 1/3 of the initial aggro.

Now, if we consider what would be intelligent tactics, one might formulate a rule:
Kill stuff that has the highest ratio of DPS to crunchiness first. If something is obviously massively increasing the crunchiness of your targets (like a cleric that is actually doing a lot of healing---but this is largely obsolete in the current meta), raise its target priority.

To implement this, I suggest making initial aggro work like this:
Take the fraction of kills done by a character, call that THREAT. You might also factor in level and class here if you want to get fancy.
Take the estimated crunchiness of the character (I suggest factoring in class and HP for a rough and ready estimate) call that RESIST.
Take the range/time to engage the character (ignore this for mostly ranged mobs and reduce it accordingly for really fast/teleporting mobs), call that DISTANCE
Adjust for each character's aggro bonus or penalty (enhancements, incite/diversion gear, etc).
So the initial aggro for each person would be (THREAT - RESIST - DISTANCE) * (1 + aggro modifier).

If you did something like this, you might see aggro that focuses on who the real threats are and less on 'let's smear the first lifer in a group of multi-TRs, over and over again. You might also see people actually taking threat bonus and malus gear and enhancements, since they'd affect your initial aggro share. (Hidden pro tip, for rogues/sneak attackers, make you HP as high as possible since you'll be able to sneak attack more things if your initial aggro is lower under the existing system). You'd also see less of hundreds of mobs running past the people who are killing them to chase the guys they haven't even had Line of sight on yet (who are probably first lifers with poor firepower and worse defense).

Intelligent, to me would be to have the intelligent races attack the casters and clerics first. An intelligent mob would see the immediate danger in allowing a caster/healer free reign with which to cast. Unintelligent mobs should aggro on first sight. Semi intelligent should aggro on first/high damage

[Gannicus]

Right now, what typically happens is that mobs tend to aggro very heavily on the person with the fewest HP. For instance, I was doing a run of kobold assault with one other multiple TR and a very poorly geared first lifer with like 60ish hit points. Kill counts were something like 90-something/90-something/5 or so. Clearly the 2 multi-trs were killing almost everything. Nevertheless, he got killed like 5-10 times. It wasn't that he was wading in and cleaving, or even that he was getting especially close (he was a shuriken build). It was that he was getting way more than 1/3 of the initial aggro.

Well I do agree that the AI needs some work and also that this system is counter productive in keeping new players in the game; in my opinion it is not un-intelligent to go after the lowest hps in the party first. For example, when you enter a boss fight and he has some trash with him do you ignore the trash and go after the boss? With your proposed solution this is what you are asking the AI to do. The intelligent thing to do however, is kill the trash first then take the big damage dealer down. The obvious exception is that caster classes would be purseud with extreme prejidus (sp?) because they are usually quick to kill and can really mess things up.

[ValariusK]

Well I do agree that the AI needs some work and also that this system is counter productive in keeping new players in the game; in my opinion it is not un-intelligent to go after the lowest hps in the party first. For example, when you enter a boss fight and he has some trash with him do you ignore the trash and go after the boss? With your proposed solution this is what you are asking the AI to do. The intelligent thing to do however, is kill the trash first then take the big damage dealer down. The obvious exception is that caster classes would be purseud with extreme prejidus (sp?) because they are usually quick to kill and can really mess things up.

Gannicus, an intelligent opponent would prioritize killing targets in order of their DPS divided by time to kill, and would smear healers that actually heal and anyone actually using effective multi-target crowd control with extreme prejudice. The trash is often at least as dangerous as the boss (especially champions) and is much easier to kill, which is why you get that prioritization from players. The first lifers that get targeted disproportionately right now are often largely insignificant insofar as producing dps in comparison.

[Gannicus]

Gannicus, an intelligent opponent would prioritize killing targets in order of their DPS divided by time to kill, and would smear healers that actually heal and anyone actually using effective multi-target crowd control with extreme prejudice. The trash is often at least as dangerous as the boss (especially champions) and is much easier to kill, which is why you get that prioritization from players. The first lifers that get targeted disproportionately right now are often largely insignificant insofar as producing dps in comparison.

This is exactly what I am talking about though, the dps of the first lifer is probably about 1/3 or maybe 1/4 of the TR vet however the time to kill said first lifer 1/10 the time to kill the vet so the first lifer is targeted. And about the healers and CC thats why I put the caster exception in bcquae they are. e truly highest threat.

[Thunder-Monkey]

Yes I would like to see a fix for this.

It's pretty obvious something is messed up when I enter a room, cleave a bunch of mobs and they run out of the room to smash my hireling up, who they cant even see yet!

I don't mind AI, I'd like to see more of it, but giving them clairvoyant skills is not very immersive.

TM