Warlock Balancing

[PsychoBlonde]

Aren't a huge percentage of enemies evil? That would make utterdark pointless - they might as well remove it.

Blast should be subject to the same save as pact rather than automatically reflex. The pacts should mean something.

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Actually, if they were doing it more like the way pen-and-paper does it, your blast SHAPE would determine the save. Cone would be reflex. Aura would probably be Fort. Chain would be Will. Or something like that. Or they could make one of them give Spell Resistance.

A sizeable percentage of enemies are evil, yes. But it's also the most powerful blast type because of the synergy with ES, so I don't see a problem with it being mercilessly ineffective against large numbers of enemies. If it bothers you, make them like 75% resistant to it instead.

Make them stack Cha for DC's and switch up attack modes based on what they're fighting like EVERY OTHER CASTER IN THE GAME, and now there's an opportunity cost involved in the class. It's really all they need, you don't need to CHANGE anything about the class trees. Just make them INVEST in something so they don't have a ton of free feat and stat points to throw at whatever.

[LT218]

I definitely think Unyielding sentinel should reduce spellpower (except positive) by 25% or so. There should be more penalty for the extra survivability gained from a tanking destiny.

That might actually be a better nerf than nerfing warlock.

I find this statement a bid odd.

Casters running in US have already penalized themselves by leaving lots of DPS on the table that they would have had from other destinies. Shiradi, EA, etc. You don't need 2k HPs on a ranged or caster to run end-game content if you play properly.

Personally, any time I see a caster in US, regardless of whether it's a shiradi, warlock, or DC caster, I to automatically assume that they're not very good at the game. US on casters is a crutch and safety blanket. I've run all the EE and LE content in the game on both an undead shiradi and a shuriken build. Both toons had less than 1k hps. The shuriken toon only had 60ish PRR. The undead shiradi has around 100 PRR. I do just fine and frequently get invited vita tells to EE and LE raids.

[NaturalHazard]

I think this is the problem though.

If WL's were totally deleted from the game right now, I'm sure you (or the other number crunchers) could construct a new build that would be just as powerful. As long as Turbine keeps introducing new trees, enhancements, classes, races and other things into the mix, players will continue ways to find the "best" build.

Turbine has wasted a lot of time and resources over the years bowing down and nerfing builds/classes/races and within weeks of the nerf, another build comes to the front and here comes the complainers again.

I have never ran a legendary quest in my life, so I am not trying to keep an easy button toon, I am just tired of the constant complaints when we have not had any real balance since the early exploiter builds.

Ban the number crunchers!!! then nerf everything by putting a cap on everything so no matter how much you min max something you can never go over a certain cap........I bet they will still complain though...

[Forzah]

Ban the number crunchers!!! then nerf everything by putting a cap on everything so no matter how much you min max something you can never go over a certain cap........I bet they will still complain though...

I guess for abilities with DCs a cap would be a way to make them work for many characters. Anything that would get you over the cap can then be invested in defense, or what not.

[NaturalHazard]

I guess for abilities with DCs a cap would be a way to make them work for many characters. Anything that would get you over the cap can then be invested in defense, or what not.

cap the defenses too, saves, ac, ppr, mmr, dodge, miss chances, give them all caps. also attack speeds, damage modifiers, everything.

[Forzah]

cap the defenses too, saves, ac, ppr, mmr, dodge, miss chances, give them all caps. also attack speeds, damage modifiers, everything.

Hmm. That's very practical for balance and easy to implement. Nice solution.

I'm wondering, how can loot be kept interesting in such a system? Once you hit the most important caps, it's not that important anymore to get gear improving your main abilities. Or should new gear get small bonusses exceeding the cap?

[slarden]

The problem with warlock (inasmuch as there is one) is that they don't have to PAY for their damage. They don't have to spend SP to make their eldritch blast work the way other casters do. They don't have to stack a ton of feats to make their combat style work the way non-caster builds do. They don't have to stack one stat to the sky to be effective the way pretty much everyone else does. They can be lazy and go full turtle because there's no opportunity cost involved.

I don't really think that is the problem as a large percentage of my dps comes from epic abilities that do cost sp. Warlocks have low sp to begin with and if you are taking tier 5 ES you can't get the temp sp from SE.

Steel specifically said the problem isn't dps. While he didn't specifically say it - it's the people running around in US posting videos and talking about how easy warlock is because they are unkillable. The only problem is their build defense has much more to do with maxing con, unyielding sentinel, shield feats, past lifes and gear.

The warlock temp hp contribute to all this and that might be where warlock gets hit. But most of that defense isn't coming from the warlock tree.

[slarden]

Casters running in US have already penalized themselves by leaving lots of DPS on the table that they would have had from other destinies. Shiradi, EA, etc. You don't need 2k HPs on a ranged or caster to run end-game content if you play properly.

Personally, any time I see a caster in US, regardless of whether it's a shiradi, warlock, or DC caster, I to automatically assume that they're not very good at the game. US on casters is a crutch and safety blanket. I've run all the EE and LE content in the game on both an undead shiradi and a shuriken build. Both toons had less than 1k hps. The shuriken toon only had 60ish PRR. The undead shiradi has around 100 PRR. I do just fine and frequently get invited vita tells to EE and LE raids.

It may well be the wrong answer to lower Spellpower, but perhaps the US hp bonus shouldn't stack with the warlock hp bonus.

Undead shiradi gets super healing procs from the belt with not-working-as-intended stacking LGS negative spellpower + high dps + nerve venom procs and the shuri builds rarely get hit because of amazing dps helped along by not working as intended abilities/procs.

I wouldn't expect those builds to have too many problems. They are both top 3 builds at the moment.

I think the reason some ES warlocks go into US is because of how hard LE raid enemies hit and because most of their dps is at very close range. ES warlocks are not optimal for LE Shroud for example where the mobs are mostly instsaklled and the most important dps is single-target dps. They aren't awful in the LE raids, but builds with higher single target dps are more optimal for that raid.

[Altamedes]

I find this statement a bid odd.

Casters running in US have already penalized themselves by leaving lots of DPS on the table that they would have had from other destinies. Shiradi, EA, etc. You don't need 2k HPs on a ranged or caster to run end-game content if you play properly.

Personally, any time I see a caster in US, regardless of whether it's a shiradi, warlock, or DC caster, I to automatically assume that they're not very good at the game. US on casters is a crutch and safety blanket. I've run all the EE and LE content in the game on both an undead shiradi and a shuriken build. Both toons had less than 1k hps. The shuriken toon only had 60ish PRR. The undead shiradi has around 100 PRR. I do just fine and frequently get invited vita tells to EE and LE raids.

Well said. And frankly, every build (melee, caster, ranged) leaves dps on the table when using US. Unless you're in a raid where a dedicated tank is actually needed, US is pretty much a crutch.

[KoobTheProud]

This is just an opinion so take it that way.

I believe that if DDO balances Warlocks in a way that makes them more balanced in groups but also hurts their ability to solo that it will end up being a negative adjustment that hurts the game and the player population.

You do have to take my opinions with a big grain of salt at this point because I'm no longer a DDO player nor am I likely to return at this point. I do think that DDO needs a nearly unsinkable boat for solo players due to the declining population and the likelihood that the game will be in maintenance mode essentially scrounging for every player it can find to keep the economics viable at that point.

[zehnvhex]

Truth be told it's not Warlocks that are the problem. The problem is that in heroics mob cleave damage is king. I mean let's look at the 'best' heroic classes prior to Warlocks.

Barbarian. Paladin. 14/6 Paladin/Ranger.

Let's go back even further. During the 'glory' days of DDO what was the most powerful class? Wizards (firewall) and Clerics (blade barrier).

What do all these builds have in common? Insane cleave damage.

Cleave damage has always been king in DDO.

Other games have gone different routes to alleviate the OPness of this eventually.

In EQ there were hard limits on how much damage cleave attacks could do (base 100 damage, max 500 damage split among all targets in range if more then 5 targets). In WoW every class was given some form of cleave damage. So on and so forth.

DDO is one of the few games that, after 10 years, still has not addressed this very basic balance issue.

Anyways...

That being said once you reach epic level content your heroic levels seem to matter less and less these days. A pure fighter in LD ED will absolutely crush a warlock in terms of actual damage output.

[LT218]

It may well be the wrong answer to lower Spellpower, but perhaps the US hp bonus shouldn't stack with the warlock hp bonus.

Undead shiradi gets super healing procs from the belt with not-working-as-intended stacking LGS negative spellpower + high dps + nerve venom procs and the shuri builds rarely get hit because of amazing dps helped along by not working as intended abilities/procs.

I wouldn't expect those builds to have too many problems. They are both top 3 builds at the moment.

I think the reason some ES warlocks go into US is because of how hard LE raid enemies hit and because most of their dps is at very close range. ES warlocks are not optimal for LE Shroud for example where the mobs are mostly instsaklled and the most important dps is single-target dps. They aren't awful in the LE raids, but builds with higher single target dps are more optimal for that raid.

I did just fine running the undead shiradi in end-game raids for over a month before I acquired enough ingredients to make an LGS spellpower sword. The death auras are nice but Negative Energy Burst is what keeps you alive in LE.

I'm lazy and don't bother trying to time my death auras to coincide with Arcane Supremacy procs just because it's not needed. Healing for 600 a tic vs 300 a tic isn't going to save you if you're playing poorly. By playing poorly, I mean being a caster or ranged DPS and standing still long enough to get hit frequently. Or sacrificing enough DPS in favor of HPs that mobs live long enough to run you down. =P

To further support that, on the shuriken life, I did just fine with cocoon for healing with an occasional CSW as a backup. UMD wasn't quite high enough to no-fail Heal scrolls so I didn't bother with them.

Re: the US ES Warlocks, a 3k HP unkillable potato is still a potato. If they're not smart enough to switch to chain shape or enervating shadow shape in LE raids so they can keep some distance, they're doing it wrong. HPs won't make them better players, it just makes them require less of my res scrolls.

I had a guild leader back in my Everquest days who was fond of the saying, "If you need CC, you're not doing enough DPS." Piling on mounds of HPs in lieu of DPS is just another form of CC.

[JOTMON]

I did just fine running the undead shiradi in end-game raids for over a month before I acquired enough ingredients to make an LGS spellpower sword. The death auras are nice but Negative Energy Burst is what keeps you alive in LE.

I'm lazy and don't bother trying to time my death auras to coincide with Arcane Supremacy procs just because it's not needed. Healing for 600 a tic vs 300 a tic isn't going to save you if you're playing poorly. By playing poorly, I mean being a caster or ranged DPS and standing still long enough to get hit frequently. Or sacrificing enough DPS in favor of HPs that mobs live long enough to run you down. =P

To further support that, on the shuriken life, I did just fine with cocoon for healing with an occasional CSW as a backup. UMD wasn't quite high enough to no-fail Heal scrolls so I didn't bother with them.

Re: the US ES Warlocks, a 3k HP unkillable potato is still a potato. If they're not smart enough to switch to chain shape or enervating shadow shape in LE raids so they can keep some distance, they're doing it wrong. HPs won't make them better players, it just makes them require less of my res scrolls.

I had a guild leader back in my Everquest days who was fond of the saying, "If you need CC, you're not doing enough DPS." Piling on mounds of HPs in lieu of DPS is just another form of CC.

Its a variation of Warlock to fit a niche..
A tanking ES warlock in US needs the HP to be able to jump into the middle of mobs and take that initial round of hits.. like any tank needs..

I run a 3 different warlocks, one of which is a tanker..
I sacrifice DPS for survivability.. crazy concept.. but dead toons do no DPS...
A Warlock in Enlightened Sprit and Unyielding Sentinel to hit he HP benchmarks to be survivable as a tank.. with 126 Intimidate, 56 Con, 80 CHA 2500HP base.. along with LGS HP item bonus sets.
Sure I can bump the temp HP with Shining Through and LGS affirmation I can hit 4k HP.. but those are just temporary stars aligned HP.. these are still just alternative temporary HP..I still need healing..
Its no magic survival method.. LE content and a simple mistake will still kill me..

If they screw with US and ES HP.. it is probably the death of a tanky burster/blaster.. simple as that..
A enhancement tree respec to a ranged pew-pewer is all that will happen.. and instead of being a hold aggro and tank allowing melees to surround and DPS, warlocks will just become another kiting keepaway build.
This is not what the game needs.. more ranged pewpewers....

I would hope the address the problems intelligently and don't just screw the class that people 'paid' to play..

[LT218]

Its a variation of Warlock to fit a niche..
A tanking ES warlock in US needs the HP to be able to jump into the middle of mobs and take that initial round of hits.. like any tank needs..

I run a 3 different warlocks, one of which is a tanker..
I sacrifice DPS for survivability.. crazy concept.. but dead toons do no DPS...
A Warlock in Enlightened Sprit and Unyielding Sentinel to hit he HP benchmarks to be survivable as a tank.. with 126 Intimidate, 56 Con, 80 CHA 2500HP base.. along with LGS HP item bonus sets.
Sure I can bump the temp HP with Shining Through and LGS affirmation I can hit 4k HP.. but those are just temporary stars aligned HP.. these are still just alternative temporary HP..I still need healing..
Its no magic survival method.. LE content and a simple mistake will still kill me..

If they screw with US and ES HP.. it is probably the death of a tanky burster/blaster.. simple as that..
A enhancement tree respec to a ranged pew-pewer is all that will happen.. and instead of being a hold aggro and tank allowing melees to surround and DPS, warlocks will just become another kiting keepaway build.
This is not what the game needs.. more ranged pewpewers....

I would hope the address the problems intelligently and don't just screw the class that people 'paid' to play..

You misunderstand me I think.

I think warlocks are perfectly fine powerwise. They're mid-tier DPS with excellent survivability. I don't see a problem with that. There are multiple glass cannon builds (casters, melee, and ranged) that walk all over warlocks' DPS so the warlocks should have that durability.

There's also nothing wrong with a purpose built "tank" toon. If that was the person's goal, then sure, US is the destiny for them. It's just hard to remember the last raid I saw where I'd want/need a dedicated tank instead of another top-tier DPS build outside of Legendary Hound. When bosses hit for 3k+, you don't tank them, you kite them. DPS builds make all the trash clearing leading up to the boss fight go much quicker and result in faster missions/raids overall.

Case in point. Ran an EE Deathwyrm short-manned a month or so ago. Had 1 person dedicated to kulds and trash killing. Had 2 doing the phylacteries. The sole warlock in the group got stuck with tanking the dragon as he had 1.6k hps. He wasn't in US but he happened to have a few hundred more HPs than anyone else in the group. About 5 minutes into him corner tanking the dragon he called out that his mana/healing wasn't going to hold up at the rate he was taking damage. I told him "kite the stupid thing, no need to stand there". He kited it and we won easily. He commented after the raid was over how much easier it got once he started running in circles.

This highlights one of the main problems in DDO regarding perceived power of the various builds and classes. The content in the updates for the past year or so has been fairly unoriginal copy/paste jobs of other content. The current dev team doesn't seem to know how to make content challenging outside of just pumping up the hit points and making mobs hit for more and more damage. This unfairly burdens melee builds that have to stand close to said hard-hitting mobs for extended periods of time versus ranged and caster builds who can stand at a safe distance and/or kite while still doing DPS.

It would be nice if Turbine would add content with new mechanics that focused more on coordination and teamwork between players to complete the mission/raid than just putting bigger and bigger bags of HPs to beat down while trying not to get one-shotted by mobs that hit disproportionately hard versus the average melee toons' HPs and defenses. If they would start doing that, a 4k hp toon with the DPS of a melee cleric wouldn't be *needed*.

Raids like the original Abbot are great. Even at level 30, that is somewhat challenging because the mechanics cannot be easily bypassed with more DPS. It had the meteor room, the tiles, and the ice swim. The Deathwyrm raid is actually not bad in this regard, too, with the various rooms, mirrors, phylacteries and levers.

Most of the content since though is just a DPS zergfest.

[JOTMON]

You misunderstand me I think.

I think warlocks are perfectly fine powerwise. They're mid-tier DPS with excellent survivability. I don't see a problem with that. There are multiple glass cannon builds (casters, melee, and ranged) that walk all over warlocks' DPS so the warlocks should have that durability.

There's also nothing wrong with a purpose built "tank" toon. If that was the person's goal, then sure, US is the destiny for them. It's just hard to remember the last raid I saw where I'd want/need a dedicated tank instead of another top-tier DPS build outside of Legendary Hound. When bosses hit for 3k+, you don't tank them, you kite them. DPS builds make all the trash clearing leading up to the boss fight go much quicker and result in faster missions/raids overall.

Case in point. Ran an EE Deathwyrm short-manned a month or so ago. Had 1 person dedicated to kulds and trash killing. Had 2 doing the phylacteries. The sole warlock in the group got stuck with tanking the dragon as he had 1.6k hps. He wasn't in US but he happened to have a few hundred more HPs than anyone else in the group. About 5 minutes into him corner tanking the dragon he called out that his mana/healing wasn't going to hold up at the rate he was taking damage. I told him "kite the stupid thing, no need to stand there". He kited it and we won easily. He commented after the raid was over how much easier it got once he started running in circles.

This highlights one of the main problems in DDO regarding perceived power of the various builds and classes. The content in the updates for the past year or so has been fairly unoriginal copy/paste jobs of other content. The current dev team doesn't seem to know how to make content challenging outside of just pumping up the hit points and making mobs hit for more and more damage. This unfairly burdens melee builds that have to stand close to said hard-hitting mobs for extended periods of time versus ranged and caster builds who can stand at a safe distance and/or kite while still doing DPS.

It would be nice if Turbine would add content with new mechanics that focused more on coordination and teamwork between players to complete the mission/raid than just putting bigger and bigger bags of HPs to beat down while trying not to get one-shotted by mobs that hit disproportionately hard versus the average melee toons' HPs and defenses. If they would start doing that, a 4k hp toon with the DPS of a melee cleric wouldn't be *needed*.

Raids like the original Abbot are great. Even at level 30, that is somewhat challenging because the mechanics cannot be easily bypassed with more DPS. It had the meteor room, the tiles, and the ice swim. The Deathwyrm raid is actually not bad in this regard, too, with the various rooms, mirrors, phylacteries and levers.

Most of the content since though is just a DPS zergfest.

I agree.

[morkahn82]

Recently I etr'd my warlock and changed enhancements. My warlock is even more OP now.

[Huntcrow]

My suggestion.

Don't touch the class. Its actually reignited my love for this game. I opened an account in 2008, didn't play much , but WLK brought me back and now I have been spending money here...


If something HAS to be done ( I disagree ).

Then just up monsters force, Untype resistance about 2.8 %... DONE!

seriously. If you get high resistance on untype/force. WLK is in trouble.. haven't tested in PVP..

[In_Like_Flynn]

The solution is segregation. All classes must stick to their own kind, and avoid exposure to others that may also be able to contribute.

[Tilomere]

I want to be more clear about EDs. If any caster or charisma based ED was powerful, we would see more sorcs (and not need a cleric/fvs pass). The lack of sorcs means more than shiradi is dead. It also means the base EDs tied to sorc are not powerful enough to make sorc well played.

Sorc has undisputed better synergy with draconic than a warlock, and EA is about a tie in synergy. So what you are seeing is that Draconic/EA aren't powerful, because Sorc + Draconic/EA fails to draw a playerbase. Sorcs are generally max charisma, so a con-based warlock receives far less benefits from the same ED than a sorc in EA and Draconic.


An ultra completionist warlock with LGS hp items that doesn't need an ED to survive can dabble in whatever ED they want. I would personally use LD for combat brute/dire charge synergy if I had such a character. That's where the real dps boost is. Everyone else don't really lose dps from playing in US, or even just leveling EDs with no ED abilities, because draconic/EA, especially on a con-based warlock, aren't powerful enough to make a significant difference in your character. Hence the lack of sorcs and need for a cleric/fvs pass.

Say whatever you want, but at the end of the day, there are 26 epic warlocks to 3 epic sorcs on Cannith, and we are waiting on a Cleric pass. So whatever you do say, try to explain that.

What I say, is that when I see a warlock that is viable in any ED because it is a warlock, it is properly made. It is like a paladin or other remade class. It doesn't need an ED, and EDs are a small amount of power added on top. This means warlock and EDs are properly made and balanced.

When I see sorcs not being played in epics, I see it is because base sorc is not properly made for the game. Base sorc fails, and continues to fail with any ED. For me, remaking base sorc is more important than nerfing warlocks.

[Wipey]

There are multiple glass cannon builds (casters, melee, and ranged) that walk all over warlocks' DPS so the warlocks should have that durability.

So, which casters "walk all over" borelock's DPS ( free huge spellpower aoe attacks ) ?

Not fvs, not sorc, not druid, certainly not cleric or wizard.
Uhh ... arty ?

Say whatever you want, but at the end of the day, there are 26 epic warlocks to 3 epic sorcs on Cannith, and we are waiting on a Cleric pass. So whatever you do say, try to explain that.

Not really rocket science. Sorcerer, cleric or wizard requires more than two working brain cells. Some awesome people play those still.
Half the characters over level 20 are the same stupid warlock build.

same thing really :

As a raider, it's terribly sad to see the fellowships being broken apart the way that had with lack of grouping, lack of legitimate end game, poor scaling, loot rewards not being commensurate with difficulty, massive dps boost, trait trees dumbing down the classes and encouraging mindless button mashing for the win, and solo-centric playstyle highly encouraged.